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**bengaloo** · 06-13-2021, 12:44 PM

(06-08-2021, 12:48 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Not sure I follow. Are you asking for proof that Stacy Abramas engangd similar behavior? (I'll find it if you really want but I don't know how anyone could be unware of it)

It's been said or implied that Trump's questioning of the election results, and his behavior that followed, is/was an example of fascist types of behavior.

All I'm asking if these things are true for Trump, by this example alone, can we not also apply that same thinking to Stacy Abrams? Can we say her actions were a "threat to democracy"?

If not, why not?

Sadly since 1979 or so, there have been almost 1000 cases of voter fraud, many in which resulted in overturned elections and even jail for some people. There are a few databases out there that highlight all of them. Obviously most of them were more on a local level under the national radar, but most of us remember the Bush/Gore election and what happened in FL. Most of us also remember 4 years of every democrat on TV and media saying Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election from Hillary and the investigation that followed. So, there should be no name calling or finger pointing when people question the integrity of elections whether its Stacy Abrams or Trump. We have a history of cheating and a history of accusing whether its falsely or not. The bottom line is that elections should always be transparent and bi-partisan in the counting and investigating. The ability to cheat should be taken away no matter how much that offends people on any side. The idea of suspecting voter fraud and asking for investigations being a threat to democracy is ridiculous. The real threat to democracy is the actual cheating, which has been done for a very long time in very many elections in America. Here is a link to one of the databases that highlight election fraud and results of it. Yes I do believe this is a conservative site, but research any of the individual cases and you'll see they all happened....
https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?combine=&state=All&year=&case_type=All&fraud_type=All&page=0

All Americans should want fair elections and if there is any evidence of fraud it should be thoroughly investigated no matter which side. I support the election audits going on right now and think it should be done nation wide because there is definitely evidence to suggest fraud took place in certain areas. I supported the Russia collusion investigation in 2016 as well. It has nothing to do with which party is being investigated to me. It has to do with honesty and integrity for all elected officials. I dont want my person to win by cheating no matter how much I like him/her. So I fully support investigating this past election thoroughly and if it turns out that fraud happened, then people should go to jail over it and the election overturned. In my opinion, people who dont see it that way are a threat to democracy.

**Belsnickel** · 06-13-2021, 01:51 PM

(06-13-2021, 12:44 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Sadly since 1979 or so, there have been almost 1000 cases of voter fraud, many in which resulted in overturned elections and even jail for some people. There are a few databases out there that highlight all of them. Obviously most of them were more on a local level under the national radar, but most of us remember the Bush/Gore election and what happened in FL. Most of us also remember 4 years of every democrat on TV and media saying Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election from Hillary and the investigation that followed. So, there should be no name calling or finger pointing when people question the integrity of elections whether its Stacy Abrams or Trump. We have a history of cheating and a history of accusing whether its falsely or not. The bottom line is that elections should always be transparent and bi-partisan in the counting and investigating. The ability to cheat should be taken away no matter how much that offends people on any side. The idea of suspecting voter fraud and asking for investigations being a threat to democracy is ridiculous. The real threat to democracy is the actual cheating, which has been done for a very long time in very many elections in America. Here is a link to one of the databases that highlight election fraud and results of it. Yes I do believe this is a conservative site, but research any of the individual cases and you'll see they all happened....
https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?combine=&state=All&year=&case_type=All&fraud_type=All&page=0

To the first line in bold: where are the "many" that resulted in overturned elections? The vast majority of voter fraud cases are individual cases where someone, often even done erroneously and without malice, did something they shouldn't have. I, personally, know of no cases where it resulted in an overturned election, or even the need for a new election, so I doubt that there would be any way that could account for "many." Sure, there are many cases of fraudulent activities related to elections, but in comparison to the numbers of ballots cast each year and the elections held between 1929 and today, the number is infinitesimal and insignificant.

(06-13-2021, 12:44 PM)bengaloo Wrote: All Americans should want fair elections and if there is any evidence of fraud it should be thoroughly investigated no matter which side. I support the election audits going on right now and think it should be done nation wide because there is definitely evidence to suggest fraud took place in certain areas. I supported the Russia collusion investigation in 2016 as well. It has nothing to do with which party is being investigated to me. It has to do with honesty and integrity for all elected officials. I dont want my person to win by cheating no matter how much I like him/her. So I fully support investigating this past election thoroughly and if it turns out that fraud happened, then people should go to jail over it and the election overturned. In my opinion, people who dont see it that way are a threat to democracy.

What evidence? Every bit of evidence that has come up has been investigated and found to be nothing. It's been litigated in the courts a number of times, even. Continuing to call for investigations after they already happened is just ridiculous.

**bengaloo** · 06-13-2021, 01:56 PM

(06-13-2021, 01:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: To the first line in bold: where are the "many" that resulted in overturned elections? The vast majority of voter fraud cases are individual cases where someone, often even done erroneously and without malice, did something they shouldn't have. I, personally, know of no cases where it resulted in an overturned election, or even the need for a new election, so I doubt that there would be any way that could account for "many." Sure, there are many cases of fraudulent activities related to elections, but in comparison to the numbers of ballots cast each year and the elections held between 1929 and today, the number is infinitesimal and insignificant.

What evidence? Every bit of evidence that has come up has been investigated and found to be nothing. It's been litigated in the courts a number of times, even. Continuing to call for investigations after they already happened is just ridiculous.

That depends on which news you read and which people you can open your mind to. I cant see it any other way. I've read and listened to both sides of this and from what I've gathered, there should be an investigation. I know people who feel differently but they havent listened to both sides with an open mind, which is the key. Voter fraud happens. Its just a fact of life in America and most countries who have elections. If the democrats are so sure Biden won, they should WANT an investigation, big time.

**Belsnickel** · 06-13-2021, 01:58 PM

(06-13-2021, 01:56 PM)bengaloo Wrote: That depends on which news you read and which people you can open your mind to. I cant see it any other way. I've read and listened to both sides of this and from what I've gathered, there should be an investigation. I know people who feel differently but they havent listened to both sides with an open mind, which is the key. Voter fraud happens. Its just a fact of life in America and most countries who have elections.

What part didn't you get? There have been investigations. After the investigations, certain people have continued to ignore those findings and press their view. I'm not going to read those people and open my mind to them when they don't understand the facts.

**bengaloo** · 06-13-2021, 01:59 PM

(06-13-2021, 01:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: What part didn't you get? There have been investigations. After the investigations, certain people have continued to ignore those findings and press their view. I'm not going to read those people and open my mind to them when they don't understand the facts.

There are investigations and audits happening right now. The results havent been released yet. What part of that dont you get?

**Belsnickel** · 06-13-2021, 02:01 PM

(06-13-2021, 01:59 PM)bengaloo Wrote: There are investigations and audits happening right now. The results havent been released yet. What part of that dont you get?

The sham ones that are being done by partisans because they didn't like the results of the first ones? Yeah, I understand that pretty well. You aren't as well versed in this as you think. Also, I'd be interested in seeing the answer to my question about the "many" elections that have been overturned.

**bengaloo** · 06-13-2021, 02:02 PM

(06-13-2021, 02:01 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The sham ones that are being done by partisans because they didn't like the results of the first ones? Yeah, I understand that pretty well. You aren't as well versed in this as you think. Also, I'd be interested in seeing the answer to my question about the "many" elections that have been overturned.

You obviously have no idea what or why they are doing the audits. No need to harp on it any longer. Your mind is closed. Tip of the hat to ya....

**Belsnickel** · 06-13-2021, 02:08 PM

(06-13-2021, 02:02 PM)bengaloo Wrote: You obviously have no idea what or why they are doing the audits. No need to harp on it any longer. Your mind is closed. Tip of the hat to ya....

Yup, I have no idea about them or that they were all about. I don't understand the situation at all, like the fact that the irregularities had already been settled and that those involved, like the contractor in Maricopa County, are usually not qualified to do any sort of election review. Yeah, I know nothing at all. Not that my background is in internal controls and public policy as a governmental compliance officer. Nope. I'm ignorant to all of it.

**Forever Spinning Vinyl** · 06-14-2021, 09:01 AM

**Dill** · 06-14-2021, 02:35 PM

(06-13-2021, 01:56 PM)bengaloo Wrote: That depends on which news you read and which people you can open your mind to. I cant see it any other way. I've read and listened to both sides of this and from what I've gathered, there should be an investigation. I know people who feel differently but they havent listened to both sides with an open mind, which is the key. Voter fraud happens. Its just a fact of life in America and most countries who have elections. If the democrats are so sure Biden won, they should WANT an investigation, big time.

I agree with you that voter fraud happens. There is just no evidence that it happens very much. Maybe a few hundred cases over the last 30 years out of a billion+ votes.

And there have been investigations of the 2020 elections in AZ, MI, PA, and GA. And investigations after those investigations. They found no election fraud. Trump-appointed judges have found all suits over election fraud unmerited, and frequently made by people with no standing to bring them.

But one side has rejected those findings and is creating a new model--hand over the AZ Maricopa County machines and results to a team of cyber monkeys with no experience counting/assessing votes, led by a Trump partisan who firmly believes he can prove the election was stolen, and keep the press as far away as possible from this illegal recount as its "recount" violates control protocols. Look for bamboo in the paper.

Then import this model to MI, PA and GA to keep the "debate" going over Biden's legitimacy.

And you are telling me that having "listened to both sides," you now "can't see it any other way." You assert we should "want an investigation" whenever there is evidence of fraud, a point I agree with. However, the question is, do we have "evidence of fraud' just because Trump and Co. insist there is? Do we have evidence, beyond the say so of Trump or one of his supporters, that ballots came from China, or voting machines were manipulated--first from Venezuela, then from Italy, maybe from the Ukraine next? Can we be absolutely sure the problem is not with Trump and his proliferation of conspiracy theories, and his push to delegitimize and destabilize yet another central institution of U.S. democracy?

Bels has certainly closed his "ignorant" mind to the other side. He has wasted a lot of time actually studying our political institutions this elections consequences for them, rather than just feeling his way to the truth through news articles and tv commentary of people who already agree with his politics.

But I haven't closed my mind yet. We do have some idea what has been going on with the AZ audits--e.g., the first faux pas, when the untrained counters were going over ballots with black and blue pens. We know that the press is not allowed to observe the count. We know that one goal was to look for bamboo paper. We know the count was illegal, that it has removed the election machines and ballots from their proper chain of custody, so now Maricopa will have to buy all new ones for the next election.

Can you understand why I might have some concerns about the results of this audit, even before they are released? Do you understand that if they somehow "find fraud"--the finding of which no independent party was allowed to observe--I might be skeptical of those results in a way than I am not of the previous transparent and bipartisan recounts in AZ?

**bengaloo** · 06-14-2021, 05:08 PM

(06-14-2021, 02:35 PM)Dill Wrote: I agree with you that voter fraud happens. There is just no evidence that it happens very much. Maybe a few hundred cases over the last 30 years out of a billion+ votes.

And there have been investigations of the 2020 elections in AZ, MI, PA, and GA. And investigations after those investigations. They found no election fraud. Trump-appointed judges have found all suits over election fraud unmerited, and frequently made by people with no standing to bring them.

But one side has rejected those findings and is creating a new model--hand over the AZ Maricopa County machines and results to a team of cyber monkeys with no experience counting/assessing votes, led by a Trump partisan who firmly believes he can prove the election was stolen, and keep the press as far away as possible from this illegal recount as its "recount" violates control protocols. Look for bamboo in the paper.

Then import this model to MI, PA and GA to keep the "debate" going over Biden's legitimacy.

And you are telling me that having "listened to both sides," you now "can't see it any other way." You assert we should "want an investigation" whenever there is evidence of fraud, a point I agree with. However, the question is, do we have "evidence of fraud' just because Trump and Co. insist there is? Do we have evidence, beyond the say so of Trump or one of his supporters, that ballots came from China, or voting machines were manipulated--first from Venezuela, then from Italy, maybe from the Ukraine next? Can we be absolutely sure the problem is not with Trump and his proliferation of conspiracy theories, and his push to delegitimize and destabilize yet another central institution of U.S. democracy?

Bels has certainly closed his "ignorant" mind to the other side. He has wasted a lot of time actually studying our political institutions this elections consequences for them, rather than just feeling his way to the truth through news articles and tv commentary of people who already agree with his politics.

But I haven't closed my mind yet. We do have some idea what has been going on with the AZ audits--e.g., the first faux pas, when the untrained counters were going over ballots with black and blue pens. We know that the press is not allowed to observe the count. We know that one goal was to look for bamboo paper. We know the count was illegal, that it has removed the election machines and ballots from their proper chain of custody, so now Maricopa will have to buy all new ones for the next election.

Can you understand why I might have some concerns about the results of this audit, even before they are released? Do you understand that if they somehow "find fraud"--the finding of which no independent party was allowed to observe--I might be skeptical of those results in a way than I am not of the previous transparent and bipartisan recounts in AZ?

Almost 1000 cases since 1979 actually. And its bipartisan. Folks on both sides have cheated. Voter fraud happens more than it should. Democrats were awarded with an investigation in 2016 and I see no reason for it to be an issue now. There are thousands of sworn testimony's to fraud in this past election and that doesnt include other things they say was bad.

Tbh, what we saw in the last election has never happened before. For all those states to just stop counting at the same time? I watched it live on TV. Also, mail in voting leaves a lot to be desired as far as being "fraud free". I think there should be a lot of election/voter reform so that it makes it damn near impossible for voter fraud to happen on either side. I dont care who wins, as long as its fair. I personally dont really like democrats or republicans or politics in general because 90% of the time none of them really do the right things. But election integrity should never be an issue at all despite that.

**Forever Spinning Vinyl** · 06-14-2021, 06:31 PM

(06-14-2021, 05:08 PM)bengaloo Wrote: But election integrity should never be an issue at all despite that.

It's not an issue. We just have a bunch of butthurt babies that can't accept that the world is moving past them and their ideas. Instead of adjusting or adapting their platform to fit a current changing electorate, they instead choose to obstruct, lie about widespread voter fraud and try to suppress inner city voting.

Republicans are over represented and without gerrymandering, they would have been obsolete decades ago. Democracy is not for Republicans anymore unless, of course, they can stack the system in their favor.

**bengaloo** · 06-14-2021, 06:43 PM

(06-14-2021, 06:31 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: It's not an issue. We just have a bunch of butthurt babies that can't accept that the world is moving past them and their ideas. Instead of adjusting or adapting their platform to fit a current changing electorate, they instead choose to obstruct, lie about widespread voter fraud and try to suppress inner city voting.

Republicans are over represented and without gerrymandering, they would have been obsolete decades ago. Democracy is not for Republicans anymore unless, of course, they can stack the system in their favor.

I'm sorry but calling people names because they disagree with your politics is a very big part of the problem we have in America right now. With all due respect, grow up and learn to look deeper with an open mind. The way you are acting is regressive, not progressive. You should be ashamed of yourself. You're better than that, I know it. You're a good person. So are a lot of people who disagree with you.

**NATI BENGALS** · 06-15-2021, 12:25 AM

(06-14-2021, 06:43 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I'm sorry but calling people names because they disagree with your politics is a very big part of the problem we have in America right now. With all due respect, grow up and learn to look deeper with an open mind. The way you are acting is regressive, not progressive. You should be ashamed of yourself. You're better than that, I know it. You're a good person. So are a lot of people who disagree with you.

Some people consider it very presidential FYI.

**Dill** · 06-15-2021, 07:40 AM

(06-14-2021, 06:43 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I'm sorry but calling people names because they disagree with your politics is a very big part of the problem we have in America right now. With all due respect, grow up and learn to look deeper with an open mind. The way you are acting is regressive, not progressive. You should be ashamed of yourself. You're better than that, I know it. You're a good person. So are a lot of people who disagree with you.

Would you vote for a presidential candidate who called people names because they disagreed with his politics?

Seems like that sort of candidate would amplify the problem by normalizing it.

If s/he won, it would mean a party of millions of people accepted that behavior.

**Dill** · 06-15-2021, 08:04 AM

(06-14-2021, 05:08 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Almost 1000 cases since 1979 actually. And its bipartisan. Folks on both sides have cheated. Voter fraud happens more than it should. Democrats were awarded with an investigation in 2016 and I see no reason for it to be an issue now. There are thousands of sworn testimony's to fraud in this past election and that doesnt include other things they say was bad.

What is your source for 1,000 cases out of over a billion votes? I am wondering if it includes election fraud.

You keep referring to evidence of voter fraud in the last election--but you don't acknowledge that so far all claims which have been adjudicated have not been sustained by evidence. Are there new claims whose status is any different? Links?

(06-14-2021, 05:08 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Tbh, what we saw in the last election has never happened before. For all those states to just stop counting at the same time? I watched it live on TV. Also, mail in voting leaves a lot to be desired as far as being "fraud free". I think there should be a lot of election/voter reform so that it makes it damn near impossible for voter fraud to happen on either side. I dont care who wins, as long as its fair. I personally dont really like democrats or republicans or politics in general because 90% of the time none of them really do the right things. But election integrity should never be an issue at all despite that.

States all just stopped counting at the same time?? No idea what you are referring to. I watch tv too and saw final results coming in at different times.

What "never happened before" is that we had a POTUS, along with other state party officials, calling swing states to arm-twist election officials to produce the right vote count. Yet you don't seem concerned that a group willing to use their power illegally might be deploying "election fraud" as yet another tactic to undermine fair elections.

You seem to have a narrow definition of "election integrity" here. It only appears to include the kinds of "fraud" which are statistically miniscule and don't really skew elections. Like how many fraudulent votes out of a billion? 1 per million?

But it ignores the threat to election integrity created by voter id laws which target certain demographics with access hardship, and voter purges timed just before elections, and laws in Red states which can turn election certification over to Republican legislatures if there is a "question" about election results.

What about the threat to integrity created by illegal recounts with no bipartisan controls and transparency?

You have not answered my question about Trump's repeated--and repeatedly debunked--claims of election fraud. Why do millions of Trump Republican voters, and "independents" like yourself, think every new conspiracy proposed by the Trump party is worthy of yet another recount--only this time under partisan circumstances?

It's as if the term "election fraud" is becoming a synonym for "any free and fair election won by a Democrat," because that it what Republican election fraud legislation is now designed to prevent.

**Goalpost** · 06-15-2021, 09:36 AM

https://www.newsweek.com/montana-ballot-audit-shows-risks-mail-vote-fraud-opinion-1580705

**Mickeypoo** · 06-15-2021, 09:44 AM

(06-15-2021, 09:36 AM)Goalpost Wrote: https://www.newsweek.com/montana-ballot-audit-shows-risks-mail-vote-fraud-opinion-1580705

And 3....2......1........racist, voter suppression, big lie. Or crickets cause there are no answers for this.

Note, all European Countries have much stricter voting rules/voter ID to prevent fraud. Duh.....common sense, not the fun racist, voter suppression BS talking point.

And recounts are NOT the same as verifying votes.

**Belsnickel** · 06-15-2021, 10:23 AM

(06-15-2021, 09:36 AM)Goalpost Wrote: https://www.newsweek.com/montana-ballot-audit-shows-risks-mail-vote-fraud-opinion-1580705

I'd like to see an opinion piece from someone else on the topic from a differing view, or maybe a hard news piece on the situation. Better yet, a study done that shows us what the actual affect is on the voting outcomes bases on significance.

I would argue that 2020 is an anomaly, not a result of a trend. 2020 was a large election, with very high turnout, and much higher than usual mail-in and absentee voting that officials were scrambling to figure out. It was a pandemic. If we were to look at voting trends of any sort, let alone irregularities with absentee voting, we would have to eject 2020 from the modeling simply because of the circumstances with the pandemic. The only reason to include 2020 is to look at 2020 specifically and study the differences between it and a more "normal" year.

As to what other countries do, good for them. If we'd like to start comparing ourselves and our policies to other European countries I'd like us to also look at social welfare programs, universal healthcare, public transportation, etc., etc. I'd hate for us to also mention the idea of gun control. The ability to vote without undue burdens is because of our rights in this country. Putting barriers up to voting that cost anyone a dime of money should be shot down. Period.

Edit: I should expand on my last point. This is because we have a constitutional amendment prohibiting a poll tax, or, in other words, having to pay to vote. Other countries don't have this. We do. This is what makes us different.

**Belsnickel** · 06-15-2021, 10:28 AM

(06-15-2021, 09:44 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Note, all European Countries have much stricter voting rules/voter ID to prevent fraud. Duh.....common sense, not the fun racist, voter suppression BS talking point.

And this is just outright false. There are European countries with mail-in voting similar to many US states (Switzerland is an example), some countries don't require a photo ID so long as they provide the previously sent notification of an election (similar to a voter registration card, this occurs in Germany), In the UK, you just have to be in the poll book when you show up.

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