The Founding Fathers

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

What are your opinions regarding the Founding Fathers, the owning of slaves, and the hypocrisy of all men are created equal while many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were slaveholders themselves?

Do you still consider these men American heroes?

Where do you stand on building names and statues that honor some of these men?

Should we be knocking faces off of Mount Rushmore?

[Benton]

(07-23-2020, 01:57 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: What are your opinions regarding the Founding Fathers, the owning of slaves, and the hypocrisy of all men are created equal while many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were slaveholders themselves?

Do you still consider these men American heroes?

Where do you stand on building names and statues that honor some of these men?

Should we be knocking faces off of Mount Rushmore?

A lot of them wanted to end slavery but it's politics. They needed the support of the southern states, especially Virginia. So they compromised 

I'm good with honoring them. They risked everything to give freedom to as many people as they could. If they hadn't, we'd all likely be posting on a soccer message board right now.

[Belsnickel]

I'm not sure where my attitude on all of this comes from, but I'm not a huge fan of statues and monuments for people in general. I like things people wrote, said, did, etc., but I like that thing. I have a couple of quotes in my signature because I find those quotes to be pearls of wisdom when it comes to governance. When is comes to Theodore Roosevelt, I think he was an honorable person and I admired his views on the environment, but his American imperalist attitude was problematic at best and he was a proponent of eugenics out of fear of deterioration of the "American race." FDR did some fantastic things for our country and tried hard to uplift the lowest of Americans, while at the same time emotionally abandoning his wife and having several affairs.

Much like how I have a tendency to not call people racist, but rather their actions or words, I try to focus on the actions and words of an individual and venerate those specifically, not the person. I also feel like the framers of our country would feel like this great experiment is bigger than them. Washington specifically stepped down after two terms and rejected the offer to be king. I brought this up in the holidays thread, before, but I don't think he would be a huge fan of the way he is nearly worshiped in this country. Jefferson was a governor, vice-president, president, secretary of state, but none of that is what he wanted to be remembered for. Writing the Declaration of Independence, the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, and the founding of UVA. Those things were what he wanted to be known and I think that attitude is one that many of the framers likely had. His legacy exists in those immense accomplishments, not within the walls of Monticello, his time in Washington, or the monument that exists for him in the city.

[fredtoast]

It is difficult to judge every point in history based on today.

How can Abe Lincoln be a hero when he ruled over a country that would not allow women to vote?

How can FDR be a hero when he ruled over a country the featured a segregated Jim Crow south?

How can Ronald Reagan be  hero when he ruled over a country than denied equal protection under the law to homosexuals?

In another 50 years pedophiles who don't have sex with little kids will be accepted openly in society.  They will had robot/virtual child lovers.  Will that make all of us from the present era evil?

[GMDino]

Flawed people can do great things.

I'm in Matt's corner with the no statues but relying on what they said and wrote.  It gives you a better feel for what kind of person they were.  I don't even like naming building after people...especially politicians...but that's just me.  

In the end I think we can celebrate someone like Jefferson for the things he said and the ideas he proposed and still criticize him for his bad actions.  

In the end maybe we need to stop putting public figures up so high and honoring them completely.  I've never answered the question "who is your hero" with someone like that.  It's always someone I know.

I'll only add that the more push back on glorifying people like the Founding Fathers the more the other side will glorify them and try to gloss over their flaws.

[BmorePat87]

A lot of people have already articulated many of my thoughts. We can judge people within the context of their time. Most of the founding fathers were great people who did great things. I think we can apply more scrutiny regarding slavery to someone in 1861 than we can to someone in 1787 given the evolution of society's view on the topic.

The catchall term "Founding Father" shouldn't be a shield, however, for scrutiny. Not all of those involved in establishing our nation were equally great or equal advocates of democracy.

Some I think it's fair to not include their names based on scrutiny. Compare Wilson and T Roosevelt. Both believed White people were superior, but Teddy promoted his idea as a necessity to uplift Black people and hire more for lead roles in the federal government while Wilson used it as a justification to segregate, fire Black people in the federal government, and support the KKK. In 2020, both are considered racist. In 1912, Wilson would have been considered racist.

[treee]

If the decoration of public spaces were less steps removed from direct democracy then this issue would solve itself.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-23-2020, 03:17 AM)Benton Wrote: A lot of them wanted to end slavery but it's politics. They needed the support of the southern states, especially Virginia. So they compromised 

I'm good with honoring them. They risked everything to give freedom to as many people as they could. If they hadn't, we'd all likely be posting on a soccer message board right now.

Outstandingly well put.  Protecting us from soccer alone should ensure they are eternally honored. 

(07-23-2020, 10:34 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: A lot of people have already articulated many of my thoughts. We can judge people within the context of their time. Most of the founding fathers were great people who did great things. I think we can apply more scrutiny regarding slavery to someone in 1861 than we can to someone in 1787 given the evolution of society's view on the topic.

The catchall term "Founding Father" shouldn't be a shield, however, for scrutiny. Not all of those involved in establishing our nation were equally great or equal advocates of democracy.

Some I think it's fair to not include their names based on scrutiny. Compare Wilson and T Roosevelt. Both believed White people were superior, but Teddy promoted his idea as a necessity to uplift Black people and hire more for lead roles in the federal government while Wilson used it as a justification to segregate, fire Black people in the federal government, and support the KKK. In 2020, both are considered racist. In 1912, Wilson would have been considered racist.

Another excellent post.  By the standards of today's cancel culture types 99.99999999% of the people who have every lived were evil beyond redemption.  Historical reletavism is a cancer and a clear sign that we have failed to adequately teach critical thinking in school.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

This week, coincidentally, something came up about JFK and then for the next 2 days (Monday and Tuesday), I read a shit-ton about every president, Kennedy and before (some more than others).

Every single one of them, would be excellent fodder for the SJWs of today and many would be jailed for what they did.

- Jackson was by all accounts, a badass human being, but not really the best person for politics
- Grant was a complete ***** who never got anything done and deferred a bunch of important decisions to others (which is a bit of a stark contrast to the fact that he was a leading general in the CW)
- Millard Fillmore's name is almost insulting
- Harrison (the first) died in 31 days

Ok, the last 2 are nothing lol but still, it is all relative to the time period; almost all of these men were above all else, statesmen and classy, sophisticated individuals, far above the commonfolk of the era: they made executive decisions, did what they felt was best and they acted the part.

That's why so many of them are revered nowadays (well, for around a hundred years really) as the, "Founding Fathers," because the statesman attitude/class is what is sorely lacking in the world today (especially with your current president), thus human beings are naturally attracted to and will follow, people of this caliber.

Some colourful cats you guys used to have leading your country

[*Nately120*]

(07-23-2020, 03:17 AM)Benton Wrote: If they hadn't, we'd all likely be posting on a soccer message board right now.

Ugh, don't get me started on what a travesty it was that Zinedine Zidane won the Golden Ball in the 2006 World Cup when Gianluigi Buffon put up a clean sheet through the entire tournament only letting a single own goal and a single penalty kick past him.  

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(07-23-2020, 01:00 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ugh, don't get me started on what a travesty it was that Zinedine Zidane won the Golden Ball in the 2006 World Cup when Gianluigi Buffon put up a clean sheet through the entire tournament only letting a single own goal and a single penalty kick past him.  

**** Buffoon and the rest of my countrymen.

They only own because they resorted to Stooler tactics.

[*bfine32*]

(07-23-2020, 03:17 AM)Benton Wrote: A lot of them wanted to end slavery but it's politics. They needed the support of the southern states, especially Virginia. So they compromised 

I'm good with honoring them. They risked everything to give freedom to as many people as they could. If they hadn't, we'd all likely be posting on a soccer message board right now.

Nah, it'd still be a football message board

[*Nately120*]

(07-23-2020, 01:02 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: **** Buffoon and the rest of my countrymen.

They only own because they resorted to Stooler tactics.

I'm going to assume you are actually Luis Suarez.

[masterpanthera_t]

(07-23-2020, 01:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nah, it'd still be a football message board

I see what you did there, fellow "football" fan. 

I know that you're a Prem fan, and as a league it's more solid, but nothing beats the El Clasico matches of the last few years before Ronaldo left imo.

[masterpanthera_t]

(07-23-2020, 01:00 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ugh, don't get me started on what a travesty it was that Zinedine Zidane won the Golden Ball in the 2006 World Cup when Gianluigi Buffon put up a clean sheet through the entire tournament only letting a single own goal and a single penalty kick past him.  

But do you remember Zidane absolutely taking that penalty kick like a boss against Buffon? As much of a hothead as he is, the dude has balls to do that against Buffon in the WC final. 

[*Nately120*]

(07-23-2020, 01:31 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: But do you remember Zidane absolutely taking that penalty kick like a boss against Buffon? As much of a hothead as he is, the dude has balls to do that against Buffon in the WC final. 

I'll admit he got it by him, but penalty kicks in soccer are so heavily slanted in favor of the kicker that it is almost like a layup.  Nice of Zidane's hothead (pun not intended but not redacted) to take him directly out of the WC-deciding PK's though.  Oof.

[masterpanthera_t]

(07-23-2020, 01:36 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'll admit he got it by him, but penalty kicks in soccer are so heavily slanted in favor of the kicker that it is almost like a layup.  Nice of Zidane's hothead (pun not intended but not redacted) to take him directly out of the WC-deciding PK's though.  Oof.

I heard him talk about the incident later. He expressed regret in the moment, but specifically said he would not apologize to the dude whom he headbutted because then "that would make what the guy said ok". I gotta agree with his thinking about standing up for family, but at the same time wish that he would have strategically picked a better time to do it.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(07-23-2020, 01:04 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm going to assume you are actually Luis Suarez.

For some reason, I edited "own," to be, "won," but it stayed as own. Hmm...

Anyways, if Zidane kicks in penalties, no way they lose.

[Belsnickel]

(07-23-2020, 10:34 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Some I think it's fair to not include their names based on scrutiny. Compare Wilson and T Roosevelt. Both believed White people were superior, but Teddy promoted his idea as a necessity to uplift Black people and hire more for lead roles in the federal government while Wilson used it as a justification to segregate, fire Black people in the federal government, and support the KKK. In 2020, both are considered racist. In 1912, Wilson would have been considered racist.

Wilson catches a lot of shit, and rightfully so, but he is responsible for an end to the spoils system (not single-handedly, and not necessarily as president as it occurred before he was in office) and he laid a lot of the groundwork for what FDR would eventually build upon. Without the way he built the bureaucracy and really implemented that idea, the system would not have been in place for FDR when it came time.

This is why I like to focus just on their actions and words. There are good things and bad things with every one of our historical figures. But yeah, Wilson's racism when compared with that of TR at the time is a very interesting comparison to raise. That's also the difference between southern racism and northern racism, though. Wilson was, after all, born and raised in Virginia.

[*Nately120*]

(07-23-2020, 02:02 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote:

For some reason, I edited "own," to be, "won," but it stayed as own. Hmm...

Anyways, if Zidane kicks in penalties, no way they lose.

I guess we will never know, but if I recall Italy had the silver and bronze ball winners kicking so they were fairly stacked outside of their ultra-defensive gameplan.