The Fundamental Question going forward

[impactplaya]

(04-03-2023, 09:57 AM)ochocincos Wrote: How'd the Chiefs do when they traded away Tyreek Hill?

They won the Super Bowl even though they didn't have a 1000+ yard WR.
Mahomes still threw for over 5000 yards, which was actually more than the year prior with Hill.
Kelce still dominated.
JJSS and MVS combined for 1600 yards between the two of them.
Their top 3 pass catchers put up nearly 3000 yards.

The Bengals may not get a WR quite the same caliber of Higgins, but I would say with pretty high confidence they can get a guy early in the draft that can be around 800-1000 yards. And they can find a third receiving option who can get them 600-800 yards very likely.

And I disagree that teams don't gameplan for the RT.
Did it not seem like the Chiefs in this past playoff game gameplanned to attack the weakest part of the OL, RG and RT?


Do you trust the Bengals to draft and develop an OL, or draft and develop a receiver?
So far, they seem to be much better with receivers than they do with OL.

Everything you said makes sense. But just because that's the route the Chiefs go as far as constructing
Their offense, does that mean the Bengals have 
To follow that template?

Let's go back in time a few years.every football 
Expert coast to coast raked the Bengals over 
The proverbial coals for drafting Chase over Sewell.
It was the biggest debate on this board ever. 
The Bengals front office went against conventional 
Thinking and took another playmaker to go 
With Tee Higgins. All that has done has got the 
Bengals to the AFC Championship Game 
2 years in a row and 1 SB. 
And if the Bengals add a healthy oline last year
No way the Chiefs go to the SB. 

The Bengals drafted Chase knowing it will not 
Be easy to retain the trio of Tee Joe but its
Not impossible. 

Can the Bengals draft replacements for Tee?. Of
Course. But are you willing to possibly let Higgins 
Go to another AFC team while you hope his 
Replacement can give you what Tee has.
Tee is a sure thing. 

[SunsetBengal]

(04-03-2023, 08:51 AM)Ell Prez Wrote: I can’t say for certain, as it matter when they resign everyone and how, but I don’t think it necessarily costs is reader and Hendrickson. I think it definitely cost us Bates and Bell. It might cost us Mixon. I’m not sure the Bengals will want to resign Reader anyways, that would be his 3rd contract and paying him in to his 30s.

But for that reason, I think D line is 100% on the table at #28.

I feel like OL and DL should be on the table every year, any time that you can get stronger or build quality depth in the trenches you should do that.  The fundamentals of football are blocking and tackling.  By being strong and having sound depth at those fundamental positions, your team has greater chance of winning no matter who is running or catching the ball.

[THE PISTONS]

(04-03-2023, 08:51 AM)Ell Prez Wrote: I can’t say for certain, as it matter when they resign everyone and how, but I don’t think it necessarily costs is reader and Hendrickson. I think it definitely cost us Bates and Bell. It might cost us Mixon. I’m not sure the Bengals will want to resign Reader anyways, that would be his 3rd contract and paying him in to his 30s.

But for that reason, I think D line is 100% on the table at #28.

You have 3 players making around $20 million now that will cost around $100 million then. That money comes from somewhere.

The cap may go up some, but it still costs money from other parts of the team.

[THE PISTONS]

(04-03-2023, 10:41 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Everything you said makes sense. But just because that's the route the Chiefs go as far as constructing
Their offense, does that mean the Bengals have 
To follow that template?

Let's go back in time a few years.every football 
Expert coast to coast raked the Bengals over 
The proverbial coals for drafting Chase over Sewell.
It was the biggest debate on this board ever. 
The Bengals front office went against conventional 
Thinking and took another playmaker to go 
With Tee Higgins. All that has done has got the 
Bengals to the AFC Championship Game 
2 years in a row and 1 SB. 
And if the Bengals add a healthy oline last year
No way the Chiefs go to the SB. 

The Bengals drafted Chase knowing it will not 
Be easy to retain the trio of Tee Joe but its
Not impossible. 

Can the Bengals draft replacements for Tee?. Of
Course. But are you willing to possibly let Higgins 
Go to another AFC team while you hope his 
Replacement can give you what Tee has.
Tee is a sure thing. 

Honestly, if the Bengals have to get rid of Tee or Chase...Sewell might have been the better move from a cap perspective for the long term.

The short term obviously has been great.

[gman657]

with all the moves of last few years by duke and katiw thwt have proved succesful I have reached the point where I just have faith in them to manage the extensions and cap. Look st the value they have found in players. They find and sign players like Hurst who is now a $7m per year player on a contract for half of that for a year. Many of pur players are on contracts that is way below what they would get on the open market and I trust them to keep finding gems like that.

My bigger worry is when we lose Lou because I think he is a great judge of who will fit in his system. I can see ossai developing to replace trey, we have this year draft and next years to plan for replacing players we may lose.

But overall I think Bengals will structure the deals to work for next 3 years (front load tee, back load chase) then we may have to look at trading tee but hopefully have drafted a replacement by that point.

Trust the process

[*Go Cards*]

(04-02-2023, 08:35 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I watched that 15 minute video of Tee on bengals.com last night and I’d say we need to keep him. He bailed us out in some big time situations with his toughness, catch radius, size, and ability to win contested catches.

Titans moved on from Brown and the team went to shit. The team he was traded to went to the super bowl. So I’m not too keen on that comparison.

On the flip side KC dealt Tyreek Hill who is better than than Higgins and actually won the SB. 

Hill had 681 more yards than Higgins while having nobody to draw double teams away from him and having a back up QB throwing the ball to him many games per Tua not being able to clear concussion protocol. 

Higgins had Burrow throwing him the ball and Chase to draw the double teams most of the time. Higgins is a very good receiver but having a stronger team trumps that imo, and Andy Reid and the SB winners must agree. Because they did not even miss a beat after losing Hill and that's what great QB's do

Philly is in great shape like the Bengals were last year with key players on their rookie deals but will have to make hard decisions in the near future as well. KC is in more of the shape the Bengals are about to enter so think it's a bad comparison.
 

[*Go Cards*]

(04-03-2023, 09:57 AM)ochocincos Wrote: How'd the Chiefs do when they traded away Tyreek Hill?

They won the Super Bowl even though they didn't have a 1000+ yard WR.
Mahomes still threw for over 5000 yards, which was actually more than the year prior with Hill.
Kelce still dominated.
JJSS and MVS combined for 1600 yards between the two of them.
Their top 3 pass catchers put up nearly 3000 yards.

The Bengals may not get a WR quite the same caliber of Higgins, but I would say with pretty high confidence they can get a guy early in the draft that can be around 800-1000 yards. And they can find a third receiving option who can get them 600-800 yards very likely.

And I disagree that teams don't gameplan for the RT.
Did it not seem like the Chiefs in this past playoff game gameplanned to attack the weakest part of the OL, RG and RT?


Do you trust the Bengals to draft and develop an OL, or draft and develop a receiver?
So far, they seem to be much better with receivers than they do with OL.

agree 100% especially this last part. 

would add that Tee's style of high pointing balls allows for the AFC head hunters to tee off on Tee too often and it will eventually take its toll. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-02-2023, 11:26 PM)impactplaya Wrote: There is no guarantee the Bengals can draft Tee Higgins replacement and expect the same production.
WR is one of the hardest positions to project.
Yeah you can let Tee walk or trade him but you 
Are gonna see the offense possibly not be as effective. The fact that 1/4 of the league is wanting 
To trade for him tells you the fact how damn good 
He is. 
Very simply a WR is more impactful to a offense
Than a RT. Defenses don't gameplan for a RT. 
How many RTs have the KC Chiefs shuffled in and out
Since Mahomes has been there? 

It's almost beyond stupid to pay 2 WRs 18+M, along with an elite QB and think you're going to be able to field a SB contending team. It doesn't happen. I'm not really on board, or even understand, the want or need to be the first to do something. The odds are astronomically low. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-03-2023, 11:00 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Honestly, if the Bengals have to get rid of Tee or Chase...Sewell might have been the better move from a cap perspective for the long term.

The short term obviously has been great.

I would have still drafted Chase, then traded Higgins when the time came, every day of the week. That was a clear (as good as Tee is) upgrade and gives you capital to play with. 

[Murdock2420]

(04-03-2023, 12:55 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It's almost beyond stupid to pay 2 WRs 18+M, along with an elite QB and think you're going to be able to field a SB contending team. It doesn't happen. I'm not really on board, or even understand, the want or need to be the first to do something. The odds are astronomically low. 

Teams that field two elite level WRs currently, did so because they were unsure of the QB situation like the Dolphins or had a guy on a rookie deal like the Eagles. 

When you have a top 3 QB you're about to pay, you don't have the luxury of paying multiple top tier weapons.

At some point, something has to give. 

[impactplaya]

(04-03-2023, 12:55 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It's almost beyond stupid to pay 2 WRs 18+M, along with an elite QB and think you're going to be able to field a SB contending team. It doesn't happen. I'm not really on board, or even understand, the want or need to be the first to do something. The odds are astronomically low. 

So I guess if the Bengals decide to give big $$$$
Contracts to Higgins and Chase then you will
Probably pencil the Bengals in as a 7-10
8-9 team after that .....

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-03-2023, 01:08 PM)impactplaya Wrote: So I guess if the Bengals decide to give big $$$$
Contracts to Higgins and Chase then you will
Probably pencil the Bengals in as a 7-10
8-9 team after that .....

I'd pencil them in for not being able to retain key members of their defense and having to win games by scoring 30+ a lot more and making it muuuuch harder to win a SB. 

[*ochocincos*]

(04-03-2023, 10:41 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Everything you said makes sense. But just because that's the route the Chiefs go as far as constructing
Their offense, does that mean the Bengals have 
To follow that template?

Let's go back in time a few years.every football 
Expert coast to coast raked the Bengals over 
The proverbial coals for drafting Chase over Sewell.
It was the biggest debate on this board ever. 
The Bengals front office went against conventional 
Thinking and took another playmaker to go 
With Tee Higgins. All that has done has got the 
Bengals to the AFC Championship Game 
2 years in a row and 1 SB. 
And if the Bengals add a healthy oline last year
No way the Chiefs go to the SB. 

The Bengals drafted Chase knowing it will not 
Be easy to retain the trio of Tee Joe but its
Not impossible. 

Can the Bengals draft replacements for Tee?. Of
Course. But are you willing to possibly let Higgins 
Go to another AFC team while you hope his 
Replacement can give you what Tee has.
Tee is a sure thing. 

Yes, I am willing to let that happen, assuming the funds are allocated to other positions properly.

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-03-2023, 01:14 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes, I am willing to let that happen, assuming the funds are allocated to other positions properly.

His reply was too much like the Marv debate. I'd also be willing because decent WRs come along every year and you already have Chase. The Bengals are kings of the 2nd rd WR. 

[*jason*]

(04-03-2023, 01:03 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Teams that field two elite level WRs currently, did so because they were unsure of the QB situation like the Dolphins or had a guy on a rookie deal like the Eagles. 

When you have a top 3 QB you're about to pay, you don't have the luxury of paying multiple top tier weapons.

At some point, something has to give. 

Ja'Marr s on his rookie deal for 3 more seasons.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-02-2023, 09:38 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: When Burrow is making $50 mill a year, Chase and Tee $25-30 million each...it's going to be significantly harder to add free agents/retain guys. That's over $100 million in cap space tied up in 3 players. For perspective, the cap is around $225 million this year. Now it should go up a decent bit, but even if it's $260 million, can you tie up that much in 3 guys?

As far as production, I'd imagine all 3 of those guys are probably 85-90% to their statistical ceilings. So you'll be paying astronomically more for similar production.

Even $75-80 million in Burrow/Chase is challenging, but I think doable.

Does anyone see any way to make this work?

If we do extend Tee like it is looking like we will, I don't expect it to be much more than 20 mil per year, if that. Tee has been banged up, a lot.

With Chase of course, he is a top 5 WR easily but we will have him on the team till 2026, so we can wait on his extension.

This will be the year we give Burrow, Tee and Wilson the big dough and prepare for the Chase extension down the road.

Also would like to extend Reader for a couple more years, he is the centerpiece of our DL, need to keep him.

You aren't going to draft a DJ Reader replacement, he is special. 

There are ways to make it all work while hoping we hit on our draft picks. This, will be the key.

The Chiefs hit on theirs last year, now it is our time to hit on ours.

[Murdock2420]

(04-03-2023, 01:10 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'd pencil them in for not being able to retain key members of their defense and having to win games by scoring 30+ a lot more and making it muuuuch harder to win a SB. 

The Colts tried that for a long time with Peyton

[Murdock2420]

(04-03-2023, 01:22 PM)jason Wrote: Ja'Marr s on his rookie deal for 3 more seasons.

Sure but you have to plan for that hit when it comes. Can't just kick the can down the roadand hope. That's how teams end up in cap hell and making really tough cuts.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-02-2023, 04:19 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Scott isn't younger. Agree on the speed.

It is hard to evaluate Bates, at his best I don't think he moved the needle like a Minkah. He was average a lot too.

It's really hard to tell with what we have in Scott and Hill. On paper though, we lost a lot of starting experience. Between Hill and Scott, they have like 1 year of starting experience. I can't see how there isn't at least some fall off in safety play.

Of course there will be and no one has said otherwise, but we are hoping to minimize that fall off with faster guys, once those guys start getting more familiar/exp then the Safety combo could match or eclipse the previous one. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-03-2023, 12:33 PM)Go Cards Wrote: On the flip side KC dealt Tyreek Hill who is better than than Higgins and actually won the SB. 

Hill had 681 more yards than Higgins while having nobody to draw double teams away from him and having a back up QB throwing the ball to him many games per Tua not being able to clear concussion protocol. 

Higgins had Burrow throwing him the ball and Chase to draw the double teams most of the time. Higgins is a very good receiver but having a stronger team trumps that imo, and Andy Reid and the SB winners must agree. Because they did not even miss a beat after losing Hill and that's what great QB's do

Philly is in great shape like the Bengals were last year with key players on their rookie deals but will have to make hard decisions in the near future as well. KC is in more of the shape the Bengals are about to enter so few its a bad comparison.
 

That's debatable. Losing 3/5 OL to injuries did us in and gave them that opportunity. I don't think they would have had a chance against us if 2/3 of our injured OL was able to play.