The High Price of Stale Grievances

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

You guys know I don't make many threads.  I stumbled across the linked article in a Guardian discussion thread and it is one of the best pieces on race relations in the US I have read in some time.  I highly encourage everyone to read it and give their thoughts. 

https://quillette.com/2018/06/05/high-price-stale-grievances/

[fredtoast]

There is nothing "historical" about the discriminations blacks face in America. There are numerous studies that show identical job and/or housing applications are treated differently if the name sound African American. There are multiple studies that show blacks are victims of racial profiling by police. There were studies that showed that banks and lending institutions discriminated based on race. I am only in my 50's but when I graduated from law school in Knoxville Tennessee the most prominent country club in the city, Cherokee Hills, refused to allow black members. So my black classmates knew that when applying for jobs at top law firms many of the people with the power to hire or grant contracts refused to associate with black people.

Does any of this mean that blacks should hate whites and discriminate against them? No. But considering that white people still control a grossly disproportionate amount of wealth and power in this country it is pathetic for them to play the victim card and claim blacks have no reason to complain about discrimination that is still around today.

[Millhouse]

Quote:Though the question seems naïve to some, it is in fact perfectly valid to ask why black people can get away with behavior that white people can’t. The progressive response to this question invariably contains some reference to history: blacks were taken from their homeland in chains, forced to work as chattel for 250 years, and then subjected to redlining, segregation, and lynchings for another century. In the face of such a brutal past, many would argue, it is simply ignorant to complain about what modern-day blacks can get away with.

Yet there we were—young black men born decades after anything that could rightly be called ‘oppression’ had ended—benefitting from a social license bequeathed to us by a history that we have only experienced through textbooks and folklore. And my white Hispanic friend (who could have had a tougher life than all of us, for all I know) paid the price. The underlying logic of using the past to justify racial double-standards in the present is rarely interrogated. What do slavery and Jim Crow have to do with modern-day blacks, who experienced neither? Do all black people have P.T.S.D from racism, as the Grammy and Emmy award-winning artist Donald Glover recently claimed? Is ancestral suffering actually transmitted to descendants? If so, how? What exactly are historical ‘ties’ made of?

First off, that was a really good read and he nailed it right on the head. When it comes to modern day racial double-standards, I see that historical argument made often which he referred to, sometimes even in p&r here.

[Millhouse]

Quote:As against our gauzy national hopes, I will teach my boys to have profound doubts that friendship with white people is possible. ~ Ekow N. Yankah

It is people like this that is causing more problems than anything, because teaching children this is simply wrong. My best friend from 1st grade until through junior high was black. He had a brother, two sisters, and mom, and lived in subsidized housing in my area which is a suburb of Cincy. We did everything together from overnight sleepovers, camping, playing basketball for hours on end, bike riding, my dad taking us on little trips to museums or wherever. He was simply my best friend, and I grew up looking at racists and bigots as ignorant idiots, which they are. So yeah, its these kind of attitudes on any racial side that need to be eradicated.

[fredtoast]

(06-07-2018, 05:52 PM)Millhouse Wrote: It is people like this that is causing more problems than anything, because teaching children this is simply wrong. My best friend from 1st grade until through junior high was black. He had a brother, two sisters, and mom, and lived in subsidized housing in my area which is a suburb of Cincy. We did everything together from overnight sleepovers, camping, playing basketball for hours on end, bike riding, my dad taking us on little trips to museums or wherever. He was simply my best friend, and I grew up looking at racists and bigots as ignorant idiots, which they are. So yeah, its these kind of attitudes on any racial side that need to be eradicated.

Agreed.  Extremist positions like this are ridiculous.

Racial discrimination against blacks is common enough to cause lots of problems, but most white people are not racist.  Alcoholism and drug addiction are common enough to cause lots of problems in society, but I would never say that every person who drinks or uses illegal drugs is a problem.

Extremist positions make issues harder to address.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-07-2018, 05:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is nothing "historical" about the discriminations blacks face in America.  There are numerous studies that show identical job and/or housing applications are treated differently if the name sound African American.  There are multiple studies that show blacks are victims of racial profiling by police.  There were studies that showed that banks and lending institutions discriminated based on race.  I am only in my 50's but when I graduated from law school in Knoxville Tennessee the most prominent country club in the city, Cherokee Hills, refused to allow black members.  So my black classmates knew that when applying for jobs at top law firms many of the people with the power to hire or grant contracts refused to associate with black people.

If you read that article and gleaned "there is no current discrimination against black people" from it then I have to question your comprehension ability.

Quote:Does any of this mean that blacks should hate whites and discriminate against them? No.  But considering that white people still control a grossly disproportionate amount of wealth and power in this country it is pathetic for them to play the victim card and claim blacks have no reason to complain about discrimination that is still around today.

Does the linked article make this argument?  I've read it and I don't recall it being made.

[*bfine32*]

(06-07-2018, 05:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is nothing "historical" about the discriminations blacks face in America.  There are numerous studies that show identical job and/or housing applications are treated differently if the name sound African American.  There are multiple studies that show blacks are victims of racial profiling by police.  There were studies that showed that banks and lending institutions discriminated based on race.  I am only in my 50's but when I graduated from law school in Knoxville Tennessee the most prominent country club in the city, Cherokee Hills, refused to allow black members.  So my black classmates knew that when applying for jobs at top law firms many of the people with the power to hire or grant contracts refused to associate with black people.

Does any of this mean that blacks should hate whites and discriminate against them? No.  But considering that white people still control a grossly disproportionate amount of wealth and power in this country it is pathetic for them to play the victim card and claim blacks have no reason to complain about discrimination that is still around today.

I don't think the author cold have paid you to make a  better response to prove his assertion.

WTS: The author does hit on some interesting points. When will it be OK to call out a minority for using long ago atrocities to enforce a double standard? How much leeway should the Jew be given when interacting with a German National? Would/do we allow the same double standard in that case?

Anybody that thinks there are not whites that currently discriminate against blacks is a fool; likewise anyone that thinks there are not blacks that discriminates against whites is a fool. Anyone that tries to use long ago history to suggest their is a difference in the two is irrational. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(06-07-2018, 07:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I have to question your comprehension ability.

Only just now?

[Belsnickel]

I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with this piece. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. Whether a person of color is doing the discriminating or it's a white boy, that shouldn't matter. If you're being an asshole you're being an asshole and the color of your skin isn't going to play a factor in how I view that. I know quite a few activists, including some I enjoy reading what they write and say, who would come back by commenting about white people just getting a taste of the medicine black people have been served for years. I get that. I understand that there have been decades of injustices served upon communities of color. We tell children all the time, though, that two wrongs don't make a right.

All of that being said, the idea that slavery and Jim Crow don't have anything to do with the black community today is erroneous. The reason that black communities experience a greater wealth gap than white communities, why a black person with a college degree makes less on average than a white person with a high school diploma, why they have a harder time acquiring an education and wealth, is a result of those past systems of oppression. You have an easier time gaining wealth if you start with something. You have better access to education if you come from educated people. Present day inequality based on race can be tied to historical injustices in a direct way. This isn't an excuse to be an asshole, but it's not something that can be overlooked.

[NATI BENGALS]

I never click on links so didnt read.

Does it ever become ok to blame inequality on cultural flaws?

Party party party smoke weed everyday sell drugs rap and make millions. Cardi B is now rich and famous and i thought she was mentally challenged when i heard her talk.

My truck my dog my beer my confederate flag and my fishing pole. Bored in wv take some oxycontin. I cant afford my trailer payments.

I'll be happy when the discrimination against short people gets some attention.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(06-07-2018, 09:04 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with this piece. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. Whether a person of color is doing the discriminating or it's a white boy, that shouldn't matter. If you're being an asshole you're being an asshole and the color of your skin isn't going to play a factor in how I view that. I know quite a few activists, including some I enjoy reading what they write and say, who would come back by commenting about white people just getting a taste of the medicine black people have been served for years. I get that. I understand that there have been decades of injustices served upon communities of color. We tell children all the time, though, that two wrongs don't make a right.

All of that being said, the idea that slavery and Jim Crow don't have anything to do with the black community today is erroneous. The reason that black communities experience a greater wealth gap than white communities, why a black person with a college degree makes less on average than a white person with a high school diploma, why they have a harder time acquiring an education and wealth, is a result of those past systems of oppression. You have an easier time gaining wealth if you start with something. You have better access to education if you come from educated people. Present day inequality based on race can be tied to historical injustices in a direct way. This isn't an excuse to be an asshole, but it's not something that can be overlooked.

This is pretty much exactly how I felt after I read the article.  I do think as a country in general we've gotten better in terms of equality.  However I do think there is more work to be done.

[fredtoast]

(06-07-2018, 07:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Anybody that thinks there are not whites that currently discriminate against blacks is a fool; likewise anyone that thinks there are not blacks that discriminates against whites is a fool. Anyone that tries to use long ago history to suggest their is a difference in the two is irrational. 

1990 is not long ago history.  I'm only in my fifties and that was when I graduated from grad school.  You think black grads were treated the same as white grads in a city where the wealth elite still belonged to country clubs that excluded blacks.  Can you say that with a straight face?

Both whites and blacks are guilty of racism, but whites control a grossly disproportionate percentage of the wealth and power in this country so it is impossible for them to be oppressed by minorities.  Whites are the ones who have the ability to turn racism into oppression.

And my generation, the people who should be in most of the positions of power in this country, were born before the Civil Rights Act.  My generation was raised by people who benefitted greatly from the oppression of black people.  We are only ONE generation removed from the Jim Crow south and we still benefit from the privilege our families had back then.  This a fact proven by studies of intergenerational wealth elasticity.  In the US the wealth of your parents has a huge influence on your wealth.

Anyone who does not understand this is irrational.  

[fredtoast]

(06-07-2018, 07:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If you read that article and gleaned "there is no current discrimination against black people" from it then I have to question your comprehension ability.


Does the linked article make this argument?  I've read it and I don't recall it being made.

The point I got from the article was that blacks can't complain about discrimiunation and oppression because that ended years ago.

Why else would it go on and on about how long ago slavery ended? andf call the grievances "stale"?

I agree with the part about extremists going to far with the demonization of all white people, but I disagree that their grievances are "stale".

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-08-2018, 09:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The point I got from the article was that blacks can't complain about discrimiunation and oppression because that ended years ago.

Why else would it go on and on about how long ago slavery ended? andf call the grievances "stale"?

I agree with the part about extremists going to far with the demonization of all white people, but I disagree that their grievances are "stale".

Again, I just don't see how we read the same article.  I can't say I'm surprised though.  Your comment reminds me of what Yoda said to Luke when he was entering the Dark Side cave on Degobah.  Luke asked Yoda what was in the cave and Yoda's response was, "Only what you take with you."

[Millhouse]

Yeah this article is about a double-standard that is now occurring. The author is also black for what it's worth.

In a nutshell this is what its about.

His white-hispanic friend was denied from being part of a Rhianna show, because it was deemed to be an all-black ensemble on stage. Which would have been a huge deal for his friend to be a part of. He basically said if this was the other way around by a black artist denied because the show was to be an all-white ensemble, then the ones that cry out racists, discrimination, etc. would be heard on the front page news. It would be blown up in the news basically by those on the left, especially the fringe left the of anti-racists.

But then this would be met with stiff resistance by some on the right, and then you get stale grievances.

So really this whole thing is about double-standards of the reactions to racial instances out there (so to speak), and how it only concerns blacks while not with other minorities. And though he does acknowledge 'white privilege' out there, but this isnt about that.

[fredtoast]

(06-07-2018, 07:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If you read that article and gleaned "there is no current discrimination against black people" from it then I have to question your comprehension ability.

"Yet there we were—young black men born decades after anything that could rightly be called ‘oppression’ had ended—benefitting from a social license bequeathed to us by a history that we have only experienced through textbooks and folklore.  .  .  

modern-day blacks must be seen through the filter of history—not as autonomous individuals living in the present.  .  . 

Stale grievances are dredged up from history ,


How is the discrimination they are facing today not "oppression".  He is making a huge deal out of semantics.  The obvious implication from his direct quote is that black people today are not victims of racism.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-08-2018, 11:56 AM)Millhouse Wrote: Yeah this article is about a double-standard that is now occurring. The author is also black for what it's worth.

In a nutshell this is what its about.

His white-hispanic friend was denied from being part of a Rhianna show, because it was deemed to be an all-black ensemble on stage. Which would have been a huge deal for his friend to be a part of. He basically said if this was the other way around by a black artist denied because the show was to be an all-white ensemble, then the ones that cry out racists, discrimination, etc. would be heard on the front page news. It would be blown up in the news basically by those on the left, especially the fringe left the of anti-racists.

But then this would be met with stiff resistance by some on the right, and then you get stale grievances.

So really this whole thing is about double-standards of the reactions to racial instances out there (so to speak), and how it only concerns blacks while not with other minorities. And though he does acknowledge 'white privilege' out there, but this isnt about that.

It's also about the past and how it informs the present but is also abused by some as a sort of trump card.  Like I said in my OP, it's extremely well written.  An undergrad wrote an essay that puts things written by PHD's to shame.  It also is right in my wheelhouse on Ta'Neeshi Coates, who I find to be wholly untalented and a not very admirable human being.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-08-2018, 12:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote:
"Yet there we were—young black men born decades after anything that could rightly be called ‘oppression’ had ended—benefitting from a social license bequeathed to us by a history that we have only experienced through textbooks and folklore"


How is the discrimination they are facing today not "oppression".  He is making a huge deal out of semantics.  The obvious implication from his direct quote is that black people today are not victims of racism.

I didn't get that "implication" at all.  Again, seeing what you want to see.  Also, the only person I see engaging in a semantic argument is the one I just quoted.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2018, 12:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I didn't get that "implication" at all.  Again, seeing what you want to see.  Also, the only person I see engaging in a semantic argument is the one I just quoted.

He repeatedly talks about how their complaints are "stale".  How can they be stale if the still exist today?

Why does he claim all the complaints are only from "textbooks and folklore" if they still exist today?

Why does h not once mention the racial oppression and discrimination that blacks still suffer today?

[fredtoast]

"Many black progressives use the myth of collective, intergenerational transfers of suffering to exempt themselves from the rules of civil discourse."



And many white people ignore the proven fact of intergenerational wealth elasticity to claim that people born just one generation removed from Jim Crow laws have no reason to complain.