The Iran deal

[StLucieBengal]

(05-08-2018, 08:16 PM)hollodero Wrote: And that is just the kind of hyperpartisan, complacent kind of stance that makes me say the republican side is the problem. No disrespect to conservatives, honestly, but also honestly don't tell me that this has not gotten quite typical for the GOP and their supporters these days.

Sure, Obama was an idiot, so let's just blow up the agreement. It was not America who made that agreement. It's worthless if it's not from our side. The Europeans were in? Ah, Obama's still and idiot and their opinion is worthless anyway. Agreements from the liberals simply don't count, they're all idiots. Fake deal! 

How's the world supposed to work with that? Or asked more directly, how could we keep our middle fingers from popping up? Saying the republican side is the problem actually looks like a courtesy. At least we don't associate all of the USA with Trump&friends. But yeah, there's a lot of damage done by now, this cherry added, and these things just don't go away that fast. Don't be dreamy.

Obama gave away leadership on the world stage to nato/UN/eu, etc. that is weakness.

I honestly don’t care if world leaders are upset with how trump conducts his business. He is putting the USA first and that is all that matters as far as I’m concerned.

[Dill]

(05-08-2018, 11:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Remember when everyone was going to have to go back to dial up internet because of repealing net neutrality?
Remember when Trump was going to get beat in a landslide General Election?
Remember when Trump was going to not make it to the inauguration before being replaced?
Remember when England was going to become a 3rd world country because of Brexit?
Remember when the Russian puppet master would never do anything to Syria?
Remember when Trump was going to get impeached within his first 100 days in office?
and now we have:
Remember when the rest of the world turned on us because we backed out of the Iran deal?
Currently 0 for 7 anyone want to bet on going 1 for 8? I got my money on 0 for 8. Who wants to dance?

BTW, you seem kinda "butthurt". Are you one of those Trump Rubes Dino was referring to?

I remember when many pundits thought the US electorate too smart to elect an ignoramus grifter who knew nothing about government.

And Trump proved them wrong.  So 0-1 at best.

But I don't remember when Trump was going to be replaced before inauguration

or that England was going to become a 3rd world country because of Brexit--and how would we already know that is wrong, since England won't actually leave the EU until 2019?

And how would we know what the effects of the repeal of net neutrality are--has the repeal even gone into effect yet?

What in the world are you referring to when you claim the "Russian puppet master would never do anything in Syria"? Do what? When"? Who said that?

And I don't remember when Trump was going to get impeached in his first 100 days.  But I know number of people who wish he had been will grow exponentially over the next year.

So I don't see 0-7 anywhere but in your imagination. Your MO seems to be to check the internet the day after some event is announced, and if nothing has happened yet then it's all good.

And no one has said "the world will turn against us."  Like that has some clear meaning. "The world" would unfriend us from Facebook?  
Anyway, Israel and Saudi Arabia will always be our friends, right?

The claim is that withdrawing from the Iran deal will harm US credibility in the world, its ability to accomplish policy through diplomacy. 

Can we at least wait a month or two to decide whether that is happening?

And now you are on record for claiming that "the rest of the world" would somehow impose sanctions on Iran now if it sprinted for the bomb.

The best to be hoped for is that other signatories to the deal continue without US leadership--if that is ok with Iran, which, yes, is now in the driver's seat.

[Dill]

(05-09-2018, 01:04 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Obama gave away leadership on the world stage to nato/UN/eu, etc.   that is weakness.

I honestly don’t care if world leaders are upset with how trump conducts his business.  He is putting the USA first and that is all that matters as far as I’m concerned.

Never mind that every president since Washington has "put the USA first."

Trump pulled out of the Paris Accords, the TPP and now the Iran Deal. 

How is that not giving away "leadership"? How is that "strength"?  

You care if Obama upsets world leaders--but not Trump?

What sort of "leader" doesn't care if he upsets trading partners.  This is like saying some corporate CEO shouldn't care what the customers think if he is putting the business first.

How is making the world less safe for the US putting the US first?

Finally, Trump seems to be putting his own business and family first, not the USA.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2018-03-05/how-is-donald-trump-profiting-from-the-presidency-let-us-count-the-ways
http://www.newsweek.com/serious-investigation-trump-profiting-presidency-778719

[Dill]

(05-09-2018, 12:00 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: The "world"?

That's a rather big assumption that the rest of the world would go along with us. Most of the rest of the world was not onboard for the first sanctions. The fact is, it was hard enough to put together a coalition of our closest traditional allies, a feat which would now be nearly impossible to repeat since we stabbed our buddies in the back economically.

"The world" somehow imposes sanctions--against its own short term interests--without leadership or coordination.  Magic.

US diplomacy has put the US in a position of economic and military pre eminence since WWII, but that work has been invisible to most everyone but diplomats.  Americans take their pre-eminence for granted, and frivolously vote to undermine it.  Our community hasn't had crime for a while so why do we need a police force?

France paid a serious economic price to go along with the Iran deal, keeping their own auto manufacturing business out of that billion dollar market to go along with the US. That meant accepting the higher unemployment rate that went with it.

The US talked France into accepting that sacrifice for years--then quashed the deal just as the gravy started flowing.  All for naught.

Now Trump and his supporters don't care whether France likes that or not. STRENGTH!!

Oh, by the way France--hope you'll bit the bullet and go along with sanctions again.  If you don't we'll put sanctions on you, our long-time ally and friend.   And other countries had better honor those sanctions or we'll sanction them too. 

Leadership!  America first!!

[GMDino]

(05-08-2018, 11:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Remember when everyone was going to have to go back to dial up internet because of repealing net neutrality?

Remember when no one said that at all? What was said was businesses would have free reign to rape you in order to force you to use their services.

(05-08-2018, 11:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Remember when Trump was going to get beat in a landslide General Election?

Remember when he lost the popular vote? And the polls were pretty accurate on the Hillary side?

(05-08-2018, 11:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Remember when Trump was going to not make it to the inauguration before being replaced?

Remember when we didn't listen to hyperbole?

(05-08-2018, 11:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Remember when England was going to become a 3rd world country because of Brexit?

Remember how they aren't out of the EU yet?

(05-08-2018, 11:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Remember when the Russian puppet master would never do anything to Syria?

Remember when he bombed an empty airstip affter letting them know it was coming and then bombed again and never spoke of it after that?

(05-08-2018, 11:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Remember when Trump was going to get impeached within his first 100 days in office?

Hang in there...you might get this one, just at a later date.

and now we have:

(05-08-2018, 11:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Remember when the rest of the world turned on us because we backed out of the Iran deal?

Remember how that happened...yesterday?

No one said the world would "turn on us". that's the butthurt response from people who will blindly accept whatever the POTUS does and ignore his reasons being full of crap.

(05-08-2018, 11:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Currently 0 for 7 anyone want to bet on going 1 for 8? I got my money on 0 for 8. Who wants to dance?

So a bunch of things some people talked about and one that happened less than 24 hours ago are going to be completely wrong becuae they didn't happen yet?

If you say so.

(05-08-2018, 11:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: BTW, you seem kinda "butthurt". Are you one of those Trump Rubes Dino was referring to?

I guess that one hit close to home....

[GMDino]

(05-08-2018, 11:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt I'm seeing some "butthurt" in this thread, but your might not fully understand where it is coming from.

Prehaps likw someone calling POTUS a "babbling fool".

Ever listened to him?

I know you don't care what he tweets or says...or apparently what he does....since we're not suppose to judge him on any of that.

But ever listen to him try to speak without a script.  Even with a script.

He's a babbling fool.

An hell, I know so nice babbling fools.  Trump was just never one of those.

Sorry if that gives people the feels over their big, strong, POTUS and makes them feel bad about their choices. Luckily they have a hero in here defending them!

[GMDino]

(05-09-2018, 12:10 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Too funny that folks use that as a punchline.

Equally funny that rubes use it as a rallying point...as long as they agree with it.

[Belsnickel]

(05-08-2018, 11:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Too funny that folks think this puts Iran "back in the driver's seat". They start development again then the rest of the world imposes sanctions. They don't and the rest of the world does not. Then Iran gets their corn from Germany.

The sanctions from us make it extremely risky for anyone to invest in Iran, which is one of the biggest impacts of the sanctions. Because of our role in the economy it will have an effect of making the deal seem like it has ended, even though on paper it will continue and the parties still in it will say they are abiding by it. Because of this, it removes the incentive for Iran to not restart its program.

[*bfine32*]

(05-09-2018, 08:54 AM)GMDino Wrote: Remember when no one said that at all? What was said was businesses would have free reign to rape you in order to force you to use their services.


Remember when he lost the popular vote?  And the polls were pretty accurate on the Hillary side?


Remember when we didn't listen to hyperbole?


Remember how they aren't out of the EU yet?


Remember when he bombed an empty airstip affter letting them know it was coming and then bombed again and never spoke of it after that?


Hang in there...you might get this one, just at a later date.

and now we have:


Remember how that happened...yesterday?

No one said the world would "turn on us".  that's the butthurt response from people who will blindly accept whatever the POTUS does and  ignore his reasons being full of crap.




So a bunch of things some people talked about and one that happened less than 24 hours ago are going to be completely wrong becuae they didn't happen yet?

If you say so.


I guess that one hit close to home....

Oh, no one ever said you got anything wrong. It was those other folks

[GMDino]

(05-09-2018, 09:41 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Oh, no one ever said you got anything wrong.

Which is why I didn't say I said any of those things but rather pointed out the folly of the post.

(05-09-2018, 09:41 AM)bfine32 Wrote: It was those other folks

Yep...the ones who made up the things we had to "remember" in that op because they had the feels.

[GMDino]

(05-09-2018, 09:24 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The sanctions from us make it extremely risky for anyone to invest in Iran, which is one of the biggest impacts of the sanctions. Because of our role in the economy it will have an effect of making the deal seem like it has ended, even though on paper it will continue and the parties still in it will say they are abiding by it. Because of this, it removes the incentive for Iran to not restart its program.

Half of my friends who are die-hard Trump supporters a) haven't said a peep about this because they don't know what it is or b) thinkTrump "make USA Strong" but couldn't find Iran on a map let alone understand policy.

The only time they pipe up is when girls join the BSA or gas prices go up because of "government".

[*bfine32*]

(05-09-2018, 09:04 AM)GMDino Wrote: Ever listened to him?

I know you don't care what he tweets or says...or apparently what he does....since we're not suppose to judge him on any of that.

But ever listen to him try to speak without a script.  Even with a script.

He's a babbling fool.

An hell, I know so nice babbling fools.  Trump was just never one of those.

Sorry if that gives people the feels over their big, strong, POTUS and makes them feel bad about their choices.  Luckily they have a hero in here defending them!

Oh, I take it  back, you do not appear to be "butthurt" at all.

I'm not so sure that those voting for Trump are feeling bad about their choices. I would say the "rubes" that blindly pushed one of the most flawed Democratic Presidential Candidate in history are feeling bad about their. Hell, I'm feeling bad about their, as I would have loved to have seen viable competition.

It's just the ones that feel bad about their choices have followed it up with an equally bad choice by selecting to take a destructive path as opposed to a constructive one. And all it does is embolden POTUS and his base. They really should learn who Carl Rogers was if they ever what to have power again.

[*bfine32*]

(05-09-2018, 09:48 AM)GMDino Wrote: Half of my friends who are die-hard Trump supporters a) haven't said a peep about this because they don't know what it is or b) thinkTrump "make USA Strong" but couldn't find Iran on a map let alone understand policy.

The only time they pipe up is when girls join the BSA or gas prices go up because of "government".

It must be very difficult for you always being the smartest guy in the room.

[GMDino]

(05-09-2018, 09:50 AM)bfine32 Wrote: It must be very difficult for you always being the smartest guy in the room.

It's hard to argue with people who are very tied to their one political view and refuse to accept outside information.  Correct.  Luckily most of them are people I know well.  I know they aren't dumb, just blinded by partisanship.  We can have good, constructive discussions about a wide range of topics that they know more about and that I know more about.

Probably because we don't get caught up in trying to be snarky to each other.

Hell, sometimes I'm even wrong and admit it.  That seems foreign to a lot of people who have their self worth tied to "always being right".

[Griever]

(05-08-2018, 11:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Remember when everyone was going to have to go back to dial up internet because of repealing net neutrality?

Remember when Trump was going to get beat in a landslide General Election?

Remember when Trump was going to not make it to the inauguration before being replaced?

Remember when England was going to become a 3rd world country because of Brexit?

Remember when the Russian puppet master would never do anything to Syria?

Remember when Trump was going to get impeached within his first 100 days in office?

and now we have:

Remember when the rest of the world turned on us because we backed out of the Iran deal?

Currently 0 for 7 anyone want to bet on going 1 for 8? I got my money on 0 for 8. Who wants to dance?

BTW, you seem kinda "butthurt". Are you one of those Trump Rubes Dino was referring to?

Pepperidge Farm remembers

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2018, 07:58 PM)Millhouse Wrote: To play devil's advocate, the deal was only going to last until 2031, which is only 13 more years. In the meantime they would have avoided sanctions which would give them a more sizable income to develop ballistic technology than they currently have. They also would have more money to support Assad in Syria, among other anti-American/Israel/Saudi factions in the region.

As I said though, we shouldn't have pulled out of it yet. Just trying to find a silver lining in it though, because ultimately that deal was nothing more than a temporary bandaid on keeping them from having nukes over a 15 year period, and not a long term solution that a treaty could have provided instead.

Both sides accepted it with the thought that they would be in a better position in 15 years.

Iran would never agree to NEVER develop nuclear weapons.  Especially if all their neighbors had them in 2031.  

So we take what we can get.  The question is how far do we got to make them stop?  Because if we can not negotiate at some point we will have to resort to military force.

[fredtoast]

The budget bill that President Donald Trump signed Friday includes huge spending increases for the military: The Pentagon will get $94bn more this budget year than last - a 15.5 percent jump. It's the biggest year-over-year windfall since the budget soared by 26.6 percent, from $345bn in 2002 to $437bn the year after, when the United States invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, and was expanding national defence after the attacks September 11, 2001.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/02/trump-increase-military-budget-china-russia-180210141816045.html


This is all about the money.  There is huge money to be made by private companies on military defense contracts.  But in order to justify the government injecting that money into the private economy we have to stir up a lot of trouble.

[GMDino]

When I talk about Trump not understanding how things work this is what I mean.

One man's ego is ripping up years of group effort.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2018, 11:45 AM)GMDino Wrote: When I talk about Trump not understanding how things work this is what I mean.

One man's ego is ripping up years of group effort.

Too bad Trump fans stopped reading after the first 140 characters.

[GMDino]

(05-09-2018, 11:41 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The budget bill that President Donald Trump signed Friday includes huge spending increases for the military: The Pentagon will get $94bn more this budget year than last - a 15.5 percent jump. It's the biggest year-over-year windfall since the budget soared by 26.6 percent, from $345bn in 2002 to $437bn the year after, when the United States invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, and was expanding national defence after the attacks September 11, 2001.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/02/trump-increase-military-budget-china-russia-180210141816045.html


This is all about the money.  There is huge money to be made by private companies on military defense contracts.  But in order to justify the government injecting that money into the private economy we have to stir up a lot of trouble.

Speaking of money:  I  think I heard on NPR this morning the Trump admin announced this deal is done.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/08/iran-deal-fallout-boeing-may-lose-20-billion-in-aircraft-deals.html

Quote:President Donald Trump announced Tuesday he will withdraw the U.S. from a nuclear pact with Iran, a move that threatens Boeing'smultibillion dollar deals to help restock Iran's aging commercial air fleet.


The world's largest aerospace company has agreements to sell planes worth roughly $20 billion to Iranian airlines, based on list prices. The number of aircraft in the agreements is tiny compared with Boeing's total order book, however. Boeing ended the first quarter of this year with a backlog of more than 5,800 airplanes, including more than 4,600 orders for 737s.

Boeing said it had not included the Iranian deals in its order book, so its backlog remains unchanged. Boeing's European rival Airbus, however, has included its deals with Iranian airlines in its order book.

"Following today's announcement, we will consult with the U.S. government on next steps," Boeing said in a statement.

Shares of Boeing ended the day down 0.6 percent.

Trump said Tuesday he would restore sanctions on Iran. The 2015 pact lifted sanctions, after Iran agreed to limits on its nuclear program, allowing the deals with Iranian airlines to take place.

Boeing announced the largest of its deals with Iranian airlines in December 2016: 80 jets for Iran Air – including 50 of the 737 MAX 8 model. In April 2017, Iran Aseman Airlines signed an agreement to purchase 30 Boeing 737 MAX planes, with an option to buy 30 more.

When it announced the Iran Air deal, Boeing said such an order would support 100,000 U.S. jobs. That same month, Boeing's rival Airbusannounced a deal to sell 100 planes to Iran Air. A list of Airbus' orders through the end of April included more than 100 planes on order for Iran Air and Iran Aseman Airlines. Airbus did not immediately respond to a request for comment."

[url=https://buffett.cnbc.com/video/2005/04/30/the-best-investment-is-in-your-own-abilities.html?__source=BXdesktop|IA|keywordcore|Quote][/url]The best investment is 
"in your own abilities"

If the aircraft agreements are scrapped outright, it won't likely have a big impact on Boeing because of the company's large backlog of jets, particularly for narrowbody 737 aircraft, said Richard Aboulafia, vice president at Teal Group.

"Would have been nice to get but far from a major impact," Aboulafia said.

The company's current 777 production rate "is not dependent on the Iranian orders," CEO Dennis Muilenburg said on an earnings call last month. The 2016 Iran Air agreement with Boeing included 15 widebody 777-9 and 15 777-300ER models. Boeing had more than 400 orders for its widebody 777 at the end of March.