The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss

[Tiger Teeth]

(03-04-2021, 04:22 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I am not.  All of the left is not.

Try to land on planet earth and maybe you can have an actual fruitful discussion on here.

Make that 2 of us that could give 2 shits.  I am left leaning, so please refrain from lumping all Democrats alike.  That seems a bit like calling ALL right wingers racist.  

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-04-2021, 08:50 PM)Lucidus Wrote: When you were born, you were given a label based on your genitalia [male or female]. That label in no way describes who you actually are, how you will identify or who you will be attracted to; it simply categorizes you based on a specific physical aspect.

Male and female aren't labels, they're terms used to represent sex.

When you say a dog or cat is male or female, are you attempting to label who they really are on the inside?

If people want to use gender to differ from sex (were basically synonymous until very recently) then that's a conversation to be had.  I see nothing wrong with people choosing to dress, act, or identify anyway they would like.  Nor do I think anyone should go out of their way to not respect their ability to do so.

But there is nothing wrong with others (in conversation, not in the face of a trans person) using sex (not gender) for their own opinion of what actually constitutes being a male or female, or a man or a woman.

[Lucidus]

(03-04-2021, 09:17 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Male and female aren't labels, they're terms used to represent sex.

When you say a dog or cat is male or female, are you attempting to label who they really are on the inside?

If people want to use gender to differ from sex (were basically synonymous until very recently) then that's a conversation to be had.  I see nothing wrong with people choosing to dress, act, or identify anyway they would like.  Nor do I think anyone should go out of their way to not respect their ability to do so.

But there is nothing wrong with others (in conversation, not in the face of a trans person) using sex (not gender) for their own opinion of what actually constitutes being a male or female, or a man or a woman.

The terms male and female are descriptive labels [or classifications if you wish] that you are given at birth based on the genitals you were born with. The terms are a factual descriptions of the physical aspect of your anatomy at birth. Nothing more, nothing less. 

Those terms do nothing to tell us anything about you, who you are or who you will become. They only tell us what sexual organ you were born with. For me, the difference between the terms is rather simple: sex is a descriptive classification you are given at birth, gender is the descriptive representation of who you are in actuality. 

It doesn't seem to me to be nearly as difficult as some -- on all sides -- attempt to make it. 

[BFritz21]

(03-04-2021, 09:17 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Male and female aren't labels, they're terms used to represent sex.

When you say a dog or cat is male or female, are you attempting to label who they really are on the inside?

If people want to use gender to differ from sex (were basically synonymous until very recently) then that's a conversation to be had.  I see nothing wrong with people choosing to dress, act, or identify anyway they would like.  Nor do I think anyone should go out of their way to not respect their ability to do so.

But there is nothing wrong with others (in conversation, not in the face of a trans person) using sex (not gender) for their own opinion of what actually constitutes being a male or female, or a man or a woman.

Exactly.  

I have a trans boy in my Facebook friends that I met while volunteering at the hospital while he still identified as a girl and I'm not going to go out of my way to point out that he was born a girl and still has all the male parts, but his sex is still female.

(03-04-2021, 08:50 PM)Lucidus Wrote: When you were born, you were given a label based on your genitalia [male or female]. That label in no way describes who you actually are, how you will identify or who you will be attracted to; it simply categorizes you based on a specific physical aspect.

One could easily be male as described by the physical state of their birth, but be female as dictated by the actual and invariable nature of their essence.

Until recently, throughout history, bathrooms and locker rooms were used to separate men and women based on sex.  Most women are uncomfortable undressing or being naked around men and a lot of men are uncomfortable undressing or being naked around women.  

That had nothing to do with labels.  A person's sex is not in the mind.  A person who has had gender reassignment surgery is 17 more likely to commit suicide based on the study cited in this exchange around a 1:40 and the normal suicide rate is 4% and the transgender suicide rate is 40% (at 4:19 here) and, according to transgender people, it virtually no difference if people recognize them as transgender (3:50 in the last link).

That points to a deeper problem inside transgender people and not one based on how other people view them or treat them.

[*Nately120*]

(03-04-2021, 08:26 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Cute.  

If gender was just a social construct and it's just a choice, then why wouldn't people choose the gender to match their biological sex?

I'm sure a lot of people just roll with what they've got whether they like it or not. 

[*Nately120*]

(03-04-2021, 09:05 PM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: Make that 2 of us that could give 2 shits.  I am left leaning, so please refrain from lumping all Democrats alike.  That seems a bit like calling ALL right wingers racist.  

Im a libertarian, but everyone is a commie nut to the OP. 

[*Nately120*]

(03-04-2021, 10:01 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Exactly.  

I have a trans boy in my Facebook friends that I met while volunteering at the hospital while he still identified as a girl and I'm not going to go out of my way to point out that he was born a girl and still has all the male parts, but his sex is still female.


Until recently, throughout history, bathrooms and locker rooms were used to separate men and women based on sex.  Most women are uncomfortable undressing or being naked around men and a lot of men are uncomfortable undressing or being naked around women.  

That had nothing to do with labels.  A person's sex is not in the mind.  A person who has had gender reassignment surgery is 17 more likely to commit suicide based on the study cited in this exchange around a 1:40 and the normal suicide rate is 4% and the transgender suicide rate is 40% (at 4:19 here) and, according to transgender people, it virtually no difference if people recognize them as transgender (3:50 in the last link).

Im no anthropologist, but i think our discomfort of being naked and our inability to casually view the opposite sex and think of certain parts of the body as taboo is very much a social construct. 

Our culture is exceedingly uncomfortable about this stuff. 

[fredtoast]

(03-04-2021, 10:01 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I have a trans boy in my Facebook friends that I met while volunteering at the hospital while he still identified as a girl and I'm not going to go out of my way to point out that he was born a girl and still has all the male parts, but his sex is still female.

Why do you use the pronoun "him" if "he" is still a female?

[fredtoast]

(03-04-2021, 10:01 PM)BFritz21 Wrote:   A person who has had gender reassignment surgery is 17 more likely to commit suicide based on the study cited in this exchange around a 1:40 and the normal suicide rate is 4% and the transgender suicide rate is 40% (at 4:19 here) and, according to transgender people, it virtually no difference if people recognize them as transgender (3:50 in the last link).

What does suicide rate have to do with anything.

Suicide rate for a person who enters the military at age 17 is over 100% higher than the general population.

[TheUberHuber]

(03-04-2021, 09:17 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Male and female aren't labels, they're terms used to represent sex.

When you say a dog or cat is male or female, are you attempting to label who they really are on the inside?

If people want to use gender to differ from sex (were basically synonymous until very recently) then that's a conversation to be had.  I see nothing wrong with people choosing to dress, act, or identify anyway they would like.  Nor do I think anyone should go out of their way to not respect their ability to do so.

But there is nothing wrong with others (in conversation, not in the face of a trans person) using sex (not gender) for their own opinion of what actually constitutes being a male or female, or a man or a woman.

This is just not true.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history

[GMDino]

This discussion got me wondering about the whole one gender bathroom thing.

https://www.livescience.com/54692-why-bathrooms-are-gender-segregated.html

Quote:One of the little tidbits was this:

The first gender-segregated public restroom on record was a temporary setup at a Parisian ball in 1739, said Sheila Cavanagh, a sociologist at York University in Canada and author of "Queering Bathrooms: Gender, Sexuality, and the Hygienic Imagination" (University of Toronto Press, 2010). The ball's organizers put a chamber box (essentially a chamber pot in a box with a seat) for men in one room and for women in another.

But for the most part, public facilities in Western nations were male-only until the Victorian era, which meant women had to improvise. If they had to be out and about longer than they could hold their bladders, women in the Victorian era would urinate over a gutter (long Victorian skirts allowed for some privacy). Some would even carry a small personal device called a urinette that they could use discretely under their skirts and then pour out, Cavanagh said. Strangely, these urinettes were sometimes shaped like the male genitals. [How Much Urine Can a Healthy Bladder Hold?]


This lack of female facilities reflected a notable attitude about women: that they should stay home. This "urinary leash" remains a problem in some developing nations, said Harvey Molotch, a sociologist at New York University and co-editor of "Toilet: The Public Restroom and the Politics of Sharing" (New York University Press, 2010). Women in India today, for example, often have to avoid eating or drinking too much if they have to be out in public, because there is no place for them to go, Molotch told Live Science.


Ladies and gentlemen

Thus, the first gender-segregated restrooms were a major step forward for women. Massachusetts passed a law in 1887 requiring workplaces that employed women to have restrooms for them, according to an article in the Rutgers University Law Review. By the 1920s, such laws were the norm.

Victorian-era Americans were segregated by gender in many spaces, Molotch said. There were ladies-only waiting rooms in train stations, and female-only reading rooms in libraries. As sex segregation has fallen to the wayside in other public spaces, bathrooms remain the last holdout, he said.

"Restrooms are a very funny place, because they're where the most intimate actions occur that are also in public," Molotch said. In the U.S., bathrooms are partitioned with flimsy barriers with lots of gaps, in part because of anxiety over what might go on in a fully private stall. Sex and drugs are the most common of these concerns, he said.

Meanwhile, people observe rigid social rituals to keep up the illusion of privacy. Men, for example, can't be seen looking at the genitals of other men, Molotch said, but also can't be perceived as trying not to look. [10 Things That Make Humans Special]

Crazy that women weren't supposed to be OUT or to use a bathroom if they were!

And of course even in gender specific bathrooms we demonstrate a kind of fear that people might "look" at us.

The article went on to say this about bill like the NC Bathroom bill:

Quote:Bathroom bills like North Carolina's often reflect ideas about sex and safety, Cavanagh said. However, there are no documented instances of a transgender person attacking anyone in a public bathroom, she said. A survey published in the Journal of Public Management and Social Policy in 2013 did find, however, that 70 percent of the transgender respondents from the Washington, D.C., area had experienced harassment or assault in bathrooms, or had been denied access to facilities.


Ultimately, fears over allowing bathrooms to be used by people of different birth sexes may have more to do with the symbolic nature of public restrooms than with practical concerns. Transgender people challenge the notion that a person's gender and their biological sex at birth are one and the same in all cases, Molotch said, which makes some people uncomfortable. However, he suspects that the backlash will simmer down and that gender-segregated toilets will persist, with an agreement that everyone will mind their own business.

"We all know there is nothing more important to transgender people than to 'pass,'" Molotch said, meaning that transgender people want others who casually encounter them to assume they are just like all of the other members of the gender they identify with. Most transgender people do not want others to wonder whether they are transgender, he said.

So the only people really unsafe are the transgendered ones.  Interesting.

[fredtoast]

This is all Dr. Suess's fault for not giving the Grinch any visible sex organs.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-04-2021, 10:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is all Dr. Suess's fault for not giving the Grinch any visible sex organs.

How do you know?  Have you reached your very hand within the Grinch's fuzzy, Green nether regions?

[Tiger Teeth]

(03-04-2021, 10:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: How do you know?  Have you reached your very hand within the Grinch's fuzzy, Green nether regions?

This reminds me of an adult film I once saw.

[BmorePat87]

I'm not sure how this got turned into a thread about trans people, but instead of getting hung up over terminology, just focus on the science.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

[BmorePat87]

(03-04-2021, 08:26 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Cute.  

If gender was just a social construct and it's just a choice, then why wouldn't people choose the gender to match their biological sex?

I've been teaching sociology for 6 years. Gender is a social construct. It's society's identification of what behaviors and norms are synonymous with masculinity and femininity. These gender roles are not universal (in particular, see Margaret Mead's work from the 1950 on the gender roles of the tribes of New Guinea) and many cultures have had degrees of non-binary gender roles for centuries. The science also backs this up as Matt said. 

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

[Mickeypoo]

(03-04-2021, 06:04 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think his point, and forgive me if I'm not getting this right, is that while it was once acceptable to be racist towards blacks it is no acceptable to be racist towards whites.  I certainly wouldn't compare what's going on now to the historical treatment of black people in this country and I would hope no one else would be insane enough to do so.

This is correct.  While I may say things people do not agree with or may say things that come off as insensitive, my goal is never to offend, insult or demean any one person or group.  I think my posting history speaks for itself when it comes to that.

[Mickeypoo]

(03-04-2021, 06:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then why do you keep saying he is a man who thinks he can change into a woman?

Are you just trying to make him sound stupid?

No, not at all.  You said that not all transgender people transition physically.  So he is a man by birth with male body parts who dresses like a woman, but also mentally thinks he is a woman, but really is a man.

You are reading what I type and assuming I am trying to be mean spirited when I am just being honest about what I believe.

I have stated before that I feel horrible for people with Gender Dysphoria.  It must be awful to not even now what you are as a human being.

That's probably why the suicide rate is +- 35% in the trans community.  It's a horrible mental disfunction.

[Mickeypoo]

(03-04-2021, 08:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You still don't get it.  It is not "just a choice".


Why do you think homosexuals "choose" to be attracted to the same sex?

It's the same as Gender Dysphoria.  Something went wrong either mentally and/or from a genetic standpoint.

I don't think anyone is saying they don't feel a certain way.

[GMDino]

(03-05-2021, 11:23 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: It's the same as Gender Dysphoria.  Something went wrong either mentally and/or from a genetic standpoint.

I don't think anyone is saying they don't feel a certain way.

I feel the same away about people who lack empathy or an ability let other people live their lives if they aren't bothering them.

Something just went wrong in their brain that they think anyone different is "wrong" and they shouldn't be seen as equals.