The Mueller Report thread

[Bengalzona]

(03-25-2019, 02:45 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That is what Barr said. This is why I stated earlier that the remaining question I have is, from Mueller himself, why he decided to not make a prosecutorial decision on obstruction. Without that, we can only speculate why/what Mueller said with regards to obstruction.

The House wants to have him come for a hearing so that he may elaborate on things like that. I suspect he will resist coming to a hearing unless subpoenaed and will then resist elaborating on anything if it a public hearing. They might get some information from him in a private hearing.

[hollodero]

(03-25-2019, 02:50 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The Dems and most of the media have been telling us for two years that Trump was a foreign agent, that he was in Putin's pocket, that Putin had video of Trump getting urinated on by hookers.

As far as I see it, it was now determined that there's no irrefutable evidence that the Trump campaign actively aided Russia in their election meddling efforts. And that I will believe. I don't think that puts him in the clear for anything else. That doesn't mean I believe hooker stories, I just see it as a narrow exoneration that technically does not even mean he's not in Putin's pocket.

I also do not really think that the media told us he was a Russian agent. They seemed careful to stop short of that. That is no defense for still implying conclusions that weren't to conclude - or inviting guest after guest ho made those implications with grinning hosts.

[fredtoast]

(03-25-2019, 03:03 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Oh, Fred are you really incapable of distinguishing between campaign rally antics and the supposed professional work of journalists and politicians?  

You did not just say "journalist".  You said "Democrats".  I was just pointing out that the arenas full of Republicans to show that they were just as bad, if not worse than the Republicans.  The "scale and depth" were the same.

(03-25-2019, 03:03 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Also, are you're really trying to make me, or anyone else believe that the media hasn't been all in on the "Russia collusion" issue from the start? 

Of course they reported on the allegations.  They were huge news.  But that is different from coming out and claiming he was guilty.  I heard/read a lot about allegations, but I did not her many actual newsmen (not editorial spokesmen) come out and say he was guilty.

Look at how many people around Trump were convicted of lying.  That was like throwing fuel on the fire.  How could the media ignore all of that?

I agree that there were a lot of extremists out there claiming Trump would be impeached and maybe imprisoned, but that was not "most of the media".

[Belsnickel]

(03-25-2019, 04:40 PM)Benton Wrote: Trunps biggest threat at this point may be in his own party.

That is more true than a lot of people realize. I can't remember where I saw this, but in modern history, one-term presidents have been the result of a strong movement against them within their own party. If the GOP remains behind Trump, then he should coast to another four years based on historical precedent. If a popular Republican sows division from within, then it will be more of a fight. But that's the only way that I see, right now, a Democrat being in the White House come 2021 with current events as they are.

All of that being said, there is a lot of time between now and November 2020. Any attempts to predict anything this far out are a fool's errand.

[Dill]

(03-25-2019, 05:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That is more true than a lot of people realize. I can't remember where I saw this, but in modern history, one-term presidents have been the result of a strong movement against them within their own party. If the GOP remains behind Trump, then he should coast to another four years based on historical precedent. If a popular Republican sows division from within, then it will be more of a fight. But that's the only way that I see, right now, a Democrat being in the White House come 2021 with current events as they are.

All of that being said, there is a lot of time between now and November 2020. Any attempts to predict anything this far out are a fool's errand.

I predict more of the same--so long as the GDP grows, we'll see the steady normalization of all this: chaos in the White House, leaks, undoing foreign policy, confusion among our allies, blowback from tariffs, money scandals, sex scandals, racial and gender division, coarsening of public dialogue, and perhaps another shutdown as Trump "keeps his promises." 

[fredtoast]

(03-25-2019, 05:24 PM)Dill Wrote: I predict more of the same--so long as the GDP grows, we'll see the steady normalization of all this: chaos in the White House, leaks, undoing foreign policy, confusion among our allies, blowback from tariffs, money scandals, sex scandals, racial and gender division, coarsening of public dialogue, and perhaps another shutdown as Trump "keeps his promises." 

This.

If the economy seems to be going well then he will get re-elected no matter how childish he behaves.

[Belsnickel]

NSFW (a few f-bombs in there):


I wish I could be as optimistic as my man Trae, here. But at least he has the right attitude about it. Now if only the elected officials and party leadership could get the message.

[Dill]

(03-25-2019, 04:48 PM)hollodero Wrote: I also do not really think that the media told us he was a Russian agent. They seemed careful to stop short of that. That is no defense for still implying conclusions that weren't to conclude - or inviting guest after guest ho made those implications with grinning hosts.

Agree. I don't recall anyone in any MSM outlet telling us Trump was a Russian agent. If one or two outlier commentators did, that hardly=THE MEDIA TOLD US.

I did see the MSM presenting a lot of concerning information and discussing the implications thereof. 

An example of the former would be Trump's efforts to block our own intel agencies from following his private discussions with Putin, along with his inability to criticize Putin publicly and to publicly favor the world of Putin over his own intel, and, of course, to deny that there was Russian interference in the election.  Not to mention inviting the Russians into the Oval Office unescorted by our intel services and telling them that he had ended an investigation into his collusion by firing Comey.

Regarding the aforementioned implications, one option was always that Trump could be an "unwitting" agent or dupe of Putin, easily played by the former KGB agent given Trump's needy psychological profile. Another was that Trump could be compromised in some way by Putin. Still another was that Trump was in some way still legally entangled with Russian oligarchs and hoping still to build Trump Tower Moscow. I do think Right Wing media (Hannity) as opposed to exploring these options, and the concerns which made them reasonable, said the MSM was accusing Trump of being a "witting" agent of Putin to unelect him and deny the will of the voters.

I don't see how the Mueller report has closed off any of these disturbing options. Would anyone say that if Mueller couldn't find compromat, there could be none? So good for the free press. They were doing what they were supposed to do. 

All the Mueller report establishes is that our intel services don't, after this investigation, have proof that, amidst the myriad contacts between Russians and the Trump administration, some "agreement" was made to collude--or at least not enough evidence to reach the level of indictment.

Everyone still has questions, e.g., about the height of the legal bar required here if meeting with Russians to get dirt on Hillary or passing campaign polling to Russians doesn't count.  Some Republicans now want to see the FISA warrants which lead to the wiretapping of administration officials who were speaking to Russians.

[Dill]

(03-25-2019, 05:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This.

If the economy seems to be going well then he will get re-elected no matter how childish he behaves.

Still not sure about that. I think Trump will continue to turn out resistance voters, as he did during the midterm.

If the economy takes a downturn, what then?  it will be bad if clearly connected to tariffs or conflict with allies. If not, then it will depend on how bad the downturn is.  2% growth will be fault of Democrats obstruction, or some such.

[hollodero]

(03-25-2019, 05:49 PM)Dill Wrote: I don't recall anyone in any MSM outlet telling us Trump was a Russian agent.

Some network guests did. And they probably were chosen for holding a view like that. While I agree a description of "the MSM told us he was a Russian agent" takes it too far, saying they just objectively stated the facts and did everything to avoid anti-Trump spin wouldn't take it far enough.
As for Democrats, some also took it way too far.

(03-25-2019, 05:49 PM)Dill Wrote: I did see them presenting a lot of concerning information and discussing the implications thereof. 

An example of the former would be Trump's efforts to block our own intel agencies from following his private discussions with Putin, along with his inability to criticize Putin publicly and to publicly favor the world of Putin over his own intel, and, of course, to deny that there was Russian interference in the election.  Not to mention inviting the Russians into the Oval Office unescorted by our intel services and telling them that he had ended an investigation into his collusion by firing Comey.

Yep. Oh and there's also Kushner meeting with sanctioned Russian bankers, the Russian money laundering station Deutsche Bank that gave him loads of loans and was willing to take grossly misstated wealth estiments at face value, missing foreign inauguration money, Manafort giving Deripaska briefings, said guy suddenly being excluded from Russian sanctions, the Trump tower Moscow project and all the lies about business with Russia... all of which aren't any less noteworthy as they were before the report. What got somewhat less noteworthy are merely some Kysliak contacts, Felix Sater sayings, maybe Wikileaks and the Trump Tower meeting and things like that. Fair enough, there's no point in investigating these things further, but that's it.

As you said, Trump still might be in Putin's pocket. Never mind the instances like a sudden sanctions lift after some Qataris bought a failed scyscraper and other things that don't relate to Russia and are still, well, concerning.

As for the meddling, I guess there was no need for any Trump campaign expertise to do that.

[Stonyhands]

(03-25-2019, 05:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This.

If the economy seems to be going well then he will get re-elected no matter how childish he behaves.

So what you’re saying is that you hate Trump so much that even if his policies are what prove to be good for the country you would rather see him fail and this country’s economy go to shit.

Who’s acting childish again?

[Stonyhands]

(03-25-2019, 05:24 PM)Dill Wrote: I predict more of the same--so long as the GDP grows, we'll see the steady normalization of all this: chaos in the White House, leaks, undoing foreign policy, confusion among our allies, blowback from tariffs, money scandals, sex scandals, racial and gender division, coarsening of public dialogue, and perhaps another shutdown as Trump "keeps his promises." 

Are you kidding? You have got be joking.

White House leaks...as if that’s somehow Trump’s fault. Undoing of past mistakes when it comes to foreign policy so far has made the world a much safer place than just 3-4 years ago.

Confusion from our allies...if you haven’t noticed our biggest allies have a lot of issues going on just within their own countries and it has zero to do with Trump. Trump has done diddly squat to our allie’s except pressure them to start paying for their share of NATO. He’s acting like a true leader of the free world and not cowering down to anybody, as any President of the US should be. Sex Scandals were prior to this Presidency. Name one specific thing Trump has done to stoke racial and gender division that wouldn’t have been done by any other Republican President.

I get being a Democrat you have different ideals for how the country should be ran. Trump hasn’t taken a stance on anything that any other Republican President would not have. He just runs his mouth and sounds like an idiot. He’s also did some immoral things I don’t agree with regarding HIS marriage but in no way shape or form has it affected his performance as our President.

[hollodero]

(03-25-2019, 06:32 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: Name one specific thing Trump has done to stoke racial and gender division that wouldn’t have been done by any other Republican President.  

Uh, uh, may I? He concluded that a judge can't judge him fairly because he has a Mexican name - and threw that name to a crowd for them to boo.

Can I name more specific things?

[Belsnickel]

(03-25-2019, 06:18 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: So what you’re saying is that you hate Trump so much that even if his policies are what prove to be good for the country you would rather see him fail and this country’s economy go to shit.

Who’s acting childish again?

That is quite the illogical leap you are making.

[*bfine32*]

(03-25-2019, 06:18 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: So what you’re saying is that you hate Trump so much that even if his policies are what prove to be good for the country you would rather see him fail and this country’s economy go to shit.  

Who’s acting childish again?

You may be confusing Fred with Bill Maher. 

[Belsnickel]

(03-25-2019, 06:32 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: I get being a Democrat you have different ideals for how the country should be ran. Trump hasn’t taken a stance on anything that any other Republican President would not have. He just runs his mouth and sounds like an idiot. He’s also did some immoral things I don’t agree with regarding HIS marriage but in no way shape or form has it affected his performance as our President.

That is probably the most erroneous statement I have seen on this forum, and that is saying quite a lot. The GOP has long been pro-free trade, something that Trump is vehemently against. He has been more sympathetic to Russian interests than the GOP has been over the years, even the post-Cold War ones. He's discussed reducing military presences around the world, something the GOP have been in favor of keeping open. Prior to him being in office is was also pro-choice and pro-banking regulation. He has come out in favor of campaign finance reform at times.

I could go on and on, but the truth is that Trump isn't very Republican in his policy positions. Though I truthfully suspect his positions aren't very solid, anyway. I've been of the opinion for some time that he really lacks an ideology and his positions change on a whim based on those around him.

[Bengalzona]

(03-25-2019, 07:44 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That is probably the most erroneous statement I have seen on this forum, and that is saying quite a lot. The GOP has long been pro-free trade, something that Trump is vehemently against. He has been more sympathetic to Russian interests than the GOP has been over the years, even the post-Cold War ones. He's discussed reducing military presences around the world, something the GOP have been in favor of keeping open. Prior to him being in office is was also pro-choice and pro-banking regulation. He has come out in favor of campaign finance reform at times.

I could go on and on, but the truth is that Trump isn't very Republican in his policy positions. Though I truthfully suspect his positions aren't very solid, anyway. I've been of the opinion for some time that he really lacks an ideology and his positions change on a whim based on those around him.

Personally, his foreign policies seem to me like things you might hear from a drunk in a bar at around 1AM.... usually preceded by the slurred phrase, "If I were the Pressssident, I would...."

[*michaelsean*]

(03-25-2019, 05:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: NSFW (a few f-bombs in there):


I wish I could be as optimistic as my man Trae, here. But at least he has the right attitude about it. Now if only the elected officials and party leadership could get the message.

Thank God he’s a liberal or he’d be ridiculed endlessly about the way he talks by anyone north of KY.

I do like the way he pretends the Mueller report was this little side thing that didn’t pan out.

[Bengalzona]

According to the POTUS today, the Mueller investigation was "treasonous".

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/trump-claims-launching-russia-probe-treasonous?fbclid=IwAR1BuMporryKT55JTyDhu_UM09IkvnDUO-4jO8-Xg8GKOflVHEUHGxzKJjM

[BmorePat87]

McConnell has blocked a Senate vote to make the report public. The House voted unanimously to make it public.