The Pharaoh, Exodus, God, and the Meme that started an argument

[*bfine32*]

(09-21-2016, 02:51 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Not sure what is so terrifying about accepting the obvious.  Of all the humans beings ever created, non have proven to be immortal.   p value?


In my opinion, no one mocks society more than the religious extremists.  Pushing their agendas upon everyone.  christians, muslims, jews.  All feel that everyone should just bow down to their delicate needs.  You want to believe a bunch of bullshit?  Go for it.  But keep it to yourself and stop shoving it down everyones throats.

Many are compelled to share their beliefs; however, I would disagree with anyone that commands you to bow down to their needs.

I will not keep my light under a basket; in the hopes that one person that did not previously see the light; now does. if you and others want to consider that shoving down throats then so be it. Many people that would perish otherwise are force fed until they are well enough to eat on their own.

[Bengalzona]

(09-21-2016, 02:43 PM)GMDino Wrote: Exactly.  But far too many never get to that point BECAUSE of the indoctrination.  And those that DO choose to question their faith are presented with...more indoctrination in the form of religious "facts".

I'm totally cool with each person's faith being their own.  Mine has ebbed and flowed for years now.  I have different ideas about what to believe from time to time.  But let's be clear, I didn't have a choice.  Left to my own devices with no religious education I may have reached a "there must be something bigger" moment when I was younger and then abandoned it as I grew and became more educated.  But that was not an option.  It was believe or burn.  And if you get that put into your head long enough even adult doubts can get squelched.

And that's not to bash anyone who still believes what they were told/taught.  But it WAS what you were taught...and now you still have faith that it is true.

You say that you didn't have a choice. Yet, at some point you have made a choice. In fact, it sounds like you have made a series of choices and may even make more (which is cool, a sign of intelligence IMO). I assume you meant that as a child you never had a choice. But making a choice about what to believe requires a certain amount of maturity, life experience and knowledge to begin with (which is why most cults try to limit their members' experiences and exposure to the outside world). Generally, kids aren't able to fully make a choice in their beliefs anyway. Personally, I think indoctrination is foolish to begin with (see below). But even more so with children.

Indoctrination can only go so far. You cannot indoctrinate someone enough to change someone's core beliefs against their will. And at a point, indoctrination is self-defeating when taken too far (reasonably intelligent adults realize that if a belief set has to rely on indoctrination, then that belief set cannot stand on its own merits). It causes resentment. My point is that adults do reach a point where they decide what they want to believe or not believe. All adults. Even people during the Dark Ages in Europe. There were probably as many atheists in the Dark Ages as there are now, they just weren't vocal about it for fear of repercussions. The number of Christians and Jews in Russia didn't change much when it became the Soviet Union despite the fact the Communist government was anti-religious. The soul is free even if the body is not.

[Vas Deferens]

(09-21-2016, 03:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Many are compelled to share their beliefs; however, I would disagree with anyone that commands you to bow down to their needs.

I will not keep my light under a basket; in the hopes that one person that did not previously see the light; now does. if you and others want to consider that shoving down throats then so be it. Many people that would perish otherwise are force fed until they are well enough to eat on their own.

I could care less about whatever crazy batshit insane beliefs people have.   I just don't want my tax dollars go toward propagating religious ideologies.

[*bfine32*]

(09-21-2016, 04:26 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: I could care less about whatever crazy batshit insane beliefs people have.   I just don't want my tax dollars go toward propagating religious ideologies.

...and I don't want my tax dollars going to those that are in the country illegally; but what are we to do?

At least you are respectful of religion and to those of faith.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-21-2016, 10:28 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Appreciate the effort, Dino, but clearly I'm too stupid to have an intelligent discussion with people smart enough to label billions of people throughout history stupid which includes many scientists and others that used to be thought of as highly intelligent.

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Stop picking on Scientology. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-21-2016, 11:34 AM)bfine32 Wrote: If I did not believe, this is the approach I'd like to think I would have and would encourage all non-believers (not saying you are) to follow this model.

I do not understand why many are compelled to mock god; as a believer, I am taught it is the one sin, for which, you cannot be forgiven.

I pray/hope that even the non-believer will have a final chance (judgement day) to accept Christ.

I appreciate many things in the bible do not make sense to the finite mind.

I'd think you'd find that this would be the response of the vast majority of atheists if religion was kept where it belongs, in people's private lives.  When it starts being pushed in the public square, e.g. public school curriculum, door to door proselytizing, laws based on religious belief, etc. that those people tend to react with anger, derision or both.

[Vas Deferens]

(09-21-2016, 04:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ...and I don't want my tax dollars going to those that are in the country illegally; but what are we to do?

At least you are respectful of religion and to those of faith.

Absolutely I am.  Right up to the point where someone impedes my ability to adhere to logic.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-21-2016, 03:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Many are compelled to share their beliefs; however, I would disagree with anyone that commands you to bow down to their needs.

I will not keep my light under a basket; in the hopes that one person that did not previously see the light; now does. if you and others want to consider that shoving down throats then so be it. Many people that would perish otherwise are force fed until they are well enough to eat on their own.

Except when it comes to abortion, marriage, stem cell research, birth control, euthanasia, school curriculum . . . 

[Vas Deferens]

(09-21-2016, 05:02 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Except when it comes to abortion, marriage, stem cell research, birth control, euthanasia, school curriculum  . . . 

... progress

[*bfine32*]

(09-21-2016, 04:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'd think you'd find that this would be the response of the vast majority of atheists if religion was kept where it belongs, in people's private lives.  When it starts being pushed in the public square, e.g. public school curriculum, door to door proselytizing, laws based on religious belief, etc. that those people tend to react with anger, derision or both.

I have no issue with religion being in public school cirriculum; as it is a huge part of our culture. I do believe all major religions should be discussed; however, school officials should not give their opinions on the subject(s).

I have no issue with the door to door visit; given that I cannot remember the last time I had one. i know it used to be a mission at a chuch I attended, but many churches have stopped the practice; most likely due to being met with anger

I have no problems with laws that are passed to support the views of the majority of a culture; as long as the CRA is not violated and they are Constitutional.

[*bfine32*]

(09-21-2016, 05:01 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Absolutely I am.  Right up to the point where someone impedes my ability to adhere to logic.

I have noticed that about you. I think most can plainly see it.

[Vas Deferens]

(09-21-2016, 05:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have noticed that about you. I think most can plainly see it.

Well thank you.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-21-2016, 05:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have no issue with religion being in public school cirriculum; as it is a huge part of our culture. I do believe all major religions should be discussed; however, school officials should not give their opinions on the subject(s).

I have no issue with the door to door visit; given that I cannot remember the last time I had one. i know it used to be a mission at a chuch I attended, but many churches have stopped the practice; most likely due to being met with anger

I have no problems with laws that are passed to support the views of the majority of a culture; as long as the CRA is not violated and they are Constitutional.

No problem with laws based upon Sharia if Muslims are the majority?

[SunsetBengal]

(09-21-2016, 05:07 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: ... progress

When you say progress, what do you really mean?  Progress toward what?

[fredtoast]

I was raised by strongly Christian parents. We went to church every Sunday and my parents even sang in a gospel quartet that sang on the radio and in a lot of other churches. But I was lucky that my parents were not self-righteous, judgmental, hypocrites. They had strong beliefs but they knew they could not force the entire country to pass laws based on their beliefs.

In the real world I do not attack religion. But here pretty much the only time religion come up is in the context of a political discussion. And in those situations I will always attack anyone who claims that the law should be based on their religious beliefs. So I can understand why so many people think that I am actively anti-religion. But I know that many religious people are charitable and loving. They just need to keep their religion to themselves instead of forcing it into our laws or the public domain.

[Vas Deferens]

(09-21-2016, 06:52 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: When you say progress, what do you really mean?  Progress toward what?

science.  technology.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-21-2016, 06:52 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: When you say progress, what do you really mean?  Progress toward what?

Living in the Information Age without Iron Age information?

[*PhilHos*]

(09-21-2016, 06:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I was raised by strongly Christian parents. We went to church every Sunday and my parents even sang in a gospel quartet that sang on the radio and in a lot of other churches. But I was lucky that my parents were not self-righteous, judgmental, hypocrites. They had strong beliefs but they knew they could not force the entire country to pass laws based on their beliefs.

In the real world I do not attack religion. But here pretty much the only time religion come up is in the context of a political discussion. And in those situations I will always attack anyone who claims that the law should be based on their religious beliefs. So I can understand why so many people think that I am actively anti-religion. But I know that many religious people are charitable and loving. They just need to keep their religion to themselves instead of forcing it into our laws or the public domain.

Bullshit. In the context of talking about the Exodus story with 0 political statements made, you chimed in that anyone that believed in the Eden story was stupid. I believe you when you say that you act differently in the real world, but please spare us your crap that you're not really anti-religious.

Thanks.

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[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-21-2016, 12:40 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yes, it is a choice. You were forced into religion, but your faith was a choice.

How many adults choose to have faith in Santa, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy after the indoctrination ends during childhood?

[SunsetBengal]

(09-21-2016, 07:16 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: science.  technology.

(09-21-2016, 07:22 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Living in the Information Age without Iron Age information?

I get what you're saying, but no amount of science, information and technology is going to do away with natural human animal instinct.  As I see it, most religions were created to either answer the question of "Why are we here?", or to be used by a few in the know as a means of controlling the ignorant masses and their behavior.

Without opening an entirely different can of worms here, (I apologize for deviating from the original intent of the thread) could either of you explain just how this progress toward science, information and technology will have any bearing on peoples moral compasses, or how it will encourage anyone to ignore their primal (also scientific) instincts?