The Pharaoh, Exodus, God, and the Meme that started an argument

[Dill]

(10-18-2016, 11:58 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Nope, I am not "reasoning" (think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic) God, not sure how you could possibly infer that from my points.

Also, I've already explaining the Trinity to you (3 beings as one); although you may not see the exact phrase in any scripture.

Paul wrote many letters and many biblical disagree with the content of a few if not most. Also many consider the book of James (no excuses read 'em) a counter to this. Paul was just a man acting on his interpretation of the words and his teachings.

The question was ironic. No I do not think you are forming judgments by a process of logic.  (Not a slam, just a description. You are discussing the matter civilly and I respect your views (and you for expressing them), even if I contest them.)

If you claim the Trinity is referenced throughout the Bible, then we ought to see some clear mentions in the Old Testament. And claiming three beings are one doesn't explain much. The "trinity" solution to the problem of Jesus' materiality/spirituality is a specifically Greek solution, based upon a world view which emerges AFTER most of the Old Testament is written.  

Paul saw the danger to the faith if Christianity is every individual's opinion of Christianity. Christianity=whatever.
The problem becomes more acute when Christians hold state power and turn their definitions' on pagans and heretics.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-18-2016, 09:55 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: It's not about showing God. It's about proving to ourselves how much we actually want to know God and show whether we actually love him enough to go through the trials, suffering and confusion. To be clear, the bible is not hard to understand because God made it that way. The bible is hard to understand because of the differences in culture and literature and because of the fact that our "fallen nature" clouds our judgement as to what God "really" means.




That is not what that verse means. The verse is saying that God's decision to have mercy on us is not dependent on someone else. If we follow God's will, God will have mercy on us, but he does not have mercy on us because there's some magical spell that makes him have mercy on us or because there's some higher power that makes him do it. It is ultimately His decision and no one can make him have mercy on us.

To simply put it..... All this verse is saying is that God is omnipotent and no one can make him do anything and he doesn't have to consult any governmental power to "have mercy". His choice to have mercy or not is all his own. It doesn't mean God is whimsically picking who to have or not have mercy on.

Ah, but that is what that verse means. Even you wrote, "His choice to have mercy or not is all his own."  Exactly. That's my point. You're still under the impression you can influence His mercy after you just admitted the choice is "all his own."

You're a sinner. We all are. We are all destined for hell without His mercy. He will have mercy on whom He wants. You are a sinner the same as a murderer. If God chooses to give the murderer mercy instead of you, that is His choice. Who are you to question His choice?  Because God is God, if He were to show mercy to a murderer instead of a sinner like you; that's just, because God can't be unjust. 

It's one of those inconvenient truths Christians don't like to admit because it is another major contradiction. 

Read this . . . https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-59-god-unfair-romans-914-18

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-18-2016, 12:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And yet; unfortunately, for some reason, this is in the too hard to do block for many.

You are not the first to have questions or doubts. These questions have been asked and attempted to be answered for years; doubtfully a couple guys on a sports message board are going to find the definitive answer.

But if you want to read I recommend John Hick's views on St Augustine and St Irenaean

"Just believe" in Scientology is the "too hard to do block" for you. Matter of fact, it is the too hard to do block with you and all religions except for one. Which means you and I agree on the vast majority of religions with one lone exception. 

With all the different religions throughout history, how do you know the one religion you believe is the one true religion as it claims and not some elaborate deception by Satan to condemn your soul for believing in the wrong one?  The answer of course is faith. Just like every other adherent of every other religion. Is there a religion out there that doesn't ask for us to believe?

That's a lot of pressure. Better choose correctly. We all know humans are fallible. Look what happened to Eve with the serpent. 

I have trouble picking a health insurance policy which only affects me for one year. They are a helluva lot more simple than religion. 

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-18-2016, 10:38 AM)Dill Wrote: Is he whimsically picking whom he "wants to harden" too? 

Seems like God "hardens" folks and then condemns them to everlasting torment for His decision.

And when we get to this point his ways are just too deep to fathom or question.  Just believe.

I don't think the hardening of Pharaohs heart is too deep to understand. The idea that God literally hardened pharaohs heart is largely a Calvanist view. I don't believe God literally hardened his heart, but figuratively did. God's actions against pharaoh caused his heart to become hardened towards God because pharaoh believed he was greater than God. When God was saying "I will hardened pharaohs heart" I liken it to a judge giving someone a prison sentence in a court room and that person lashes out in anger and the judge saying "And I made him angry". The judge didn't literally make him angry, but the sentence which came from the judge made him angry, therefore the judge "made him angry".

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-18-2016, 04:19 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Ah, but that is what that verse means. Even you wrote, "His choice to have mercy or not is all his own."  Exactly. That's my point. You're still under the impression you can influence His mercy after you just admitted the choice is "all his own."

You're a sinner. We all are. We are all destined for hell without His mercy. He will have mercy on whom He wants. You are a sinner the same as a murderer. If God chooses to give the murderer mercy instead of you, that is His choice. Who are you to question His choice?  Because God is God, if He were to show mercy to a murderer instead of a sinner like you; that's just, because God can't be unjust. 

It's one of those inconvenient truths Christians don't like to admit because it is another major contradiction. 

Read this . . . https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-59-god-unfair-romans-914-18

It's not an "inconvenient truth".

Okay lets step away from the bible for a second and think about this in "real world" terms.

Lets say you tell someone "I'll be nice to you if you give me a glass of chocolate milk". This person then comes back to you with a glass of chocolate milk, and as a result you start being nice to them.

Did the person bringing you the chocolate milk FORCE you to be nice to them?

The point is God is not FORCED to have mercy on us, it's just that in order for us to fully receive that mercy we must obey his will. But doing God's will does not force God to have mercy, it just allows us to receive it. A person who does not obey God and is sent to hell isn't sent to hell because God was forced to send them there. God had full control of sending them there. Basically all the bible is saying is that God is a judge that needs no jury to "do" anything and his actions are not forced by any outside being or entity.

It doesn't mean God andomly chooses who to have mercy on. If God has mercy on someone there's a reason. If God doesn't have mercy on someone there's a reason. It is not random. But any reason for why God has mercy does not force God to have mercy, it's just a reason for why God did or did not have mercy, but he didn't have to as if someone told him he had too.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-19-2016, 10:32 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: It's not an "inconvenient truth".

Okay lets step away from the bible for a second and think about this in "real world" terms.

Lets say you tell someone "I'll be nice to you if you give me a glass of chocolate milk". This person then comes back to you with a glass of chocolate milk, and as a result you start being nice to them.

Did the person bringing you the chocolate milk FORCE you to be nice to them?

The point is God is not FORCED to have mercy on us, it's just that in order for us to fully receive that mercy we must obey his will. But doing God's will does not force God to have mercy, it just allows us to receive it. A person who does not obey God and is sent to hell isn't sent to hell because God was forced to send them there. God had full control of sending them there. Basically all the bible is saying is that God is a judge that needs no jury to "do" anything and his actions are not forced by any outside being or entity.

It doesn't mean God andomly chooses who to have mercy on. If God has mercy on someone there's a reason. If God doesn't have mercy on someone there's a reason. It is not random. But any reason for why God has mercy does not force God to have mercy, it's just a reason for why God did or did not have mercy, but he didn't have to as if someone told him he had too.

That's what I've been stating.

"11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad-in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls-she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.""

Romans 9:11-13

God chose Jacob, not Esau.  Why?  I don't know, but God knows.  Even though God chose Jacob, not Esau, apart from anything they did good or bad; God's election is just (fair) because God can't be anything other than just.  Why was it just to choose Jacob instead of Esau?  I don't know, but God knows His reason even though His reason has nothing to do with Jacob's and Esau's actions or lack thereof.  God's choice of Jacob over Esau isn't random because God choose Jacob for a reason.

Even though we have explained the same thing, you still believe you have some influence upon whether you go to Heaven or Hell.

https://gotquestions.org/elect-of-God.html

Quote:Question: "Who are the elect of God?"

Answer: Simply put, the “elect of God” are those whom God has predestined to salvation. They are called the “elect” because that word denotes the concept of choosing. Every four years in the U.S., we "elect" a President—i.e., we choose who will serve in that office. The same goes for God and those who will be saved; God chooses those who will be saved. These are the elect of God.

As it stands, the concept of God electing those who will be saved isn’t controversial. What is controversial is how and in what manner God chooses those who will be saved. Throughout church history, there have been two main views on the doctrine of election (or predestination). One view, which we will call the prescient or foreknowledge view, teaches that God, through His omniscience, knows those who will in the course of time choose of their own free will to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. On the basis of this divine foreknowledge, God elects these individuals “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4). This view is held by the majority of American evangelicals.

The second main view is the Augustinian view, which essentially teaches that God not only divinely elects those who will have faith in Jesus Christ, but also divinely elects to grant to these individuals the faith to believe in Christ. In other words, God’s election unto salvation is not based on a foreknowledge of an individual’s faith, but is based on the free, sovereign grace of Almighty God. God elects people to salvation, and in time these people will come to faith in Christ because God has elected them.

The difference boils down to this: who has the ultimate choice in salvation—God or man? In the first view (the prescient view), man has control; his free will is sovereign and becomes the determining factor in God’s election. God can provide the way of salvation through Jesus Christ, but man must choose Christ for himself in order to make salvation real. Ultimately, this view diminishes the biblical understanding of God's sovereignty. This view puts the Creator's provision of salvation at the mercy of the creature; if God wants people in heaven, He has to hope that man will freely choose His way of salvation. In reality, the prescient view of election is no view of election at all, because God is not really choosing—He is only confirming. It is man who is the ultimate chooser.

In the Augustinian view, God has control; He is the one who, of His own sovereign will, freely chooses those whom He will save. He not only elects those whom He will save, but He actually accomplishes their salvation. Rather than simply make salvation possible, God chooses those whom He will save and then saves them. This view puts God in His proper place as Creator and Sovereign.

The Augustinian view is not without problems of its own. Critics have claimed that this view robs man of his free will. If God chooses those who will be saved, then what difference does it make for man to believe? Why preach the gospel? Furthermore, if God elects according to His sovereign will, then how can we be responsible for our actions? These are all good and fair questions that need to be answered. A good passage to answer these questions is Romans 9, the most in-depth passage dealing with God’s sovereignty in election.

The context of the passage flows from Romans 8, which ends with a great climax of praise: “For I am convinced that... [nothing] in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39). This leads Paul to consider how a Jew might respond to that statement. While Jesus came to the lost children of Israel and while the early church was largely Jewish in makeup, the gospel was spreading among the Gentiles much faster than among the Jews. In fact, most Jews saw the gospel as a stumbling block (1 Corinthians 1:23) and rejected Jesus. This would lead the average Jew to wonder if God’s plan of election has failed, since most Jews reject the message of the gospel.

Throughout Romans 9, Paul systematically shows that God’s sovereign election has been in force from the very beginning. He begins with a crucial statement: “For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel” (Romans 9:6). This means that not all people of ethnic Israel (that is, those descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) belong to true Israel (the elect of God). Reviewing the history of Israel, Paul shows that God chose Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau. Just in case anyone thinks that God was choosing these individuals based on the faith or good works they would do in the future, he adds, “Though they [Jacob and Esau] were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad – in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls” (Romans 9:11).

At this point, one might be tempted to accuse God of acting unjustly. Paul anticipates this accusation in v. 14, stating plainly that God is not unjust in any way. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion” (Romans 9:15). God is sovereign over His creation. He is free to choose those whom He will choose, and He is free to pass by those whom He will pass by. The creature has no right to accuse the Creator of being unjust. The very thought that the creature can stand in judgment of the Creator is absurd to Paul, and it should be so to every Christian, as well. The balance of Romans 9 substantiates this point.

As already mentioned, there are other passages that talk to a lesser extent on the topic of God’s elect (John 6:37-45 and Ephesians 1:3-14, to name a couple). The point is that God has ordained to redeem a remnant of humanity to salvation. These elect individuals were chosen before the creation of the world, and their salvation is complete in Christ. As Paul says, “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Romans 8:29-30).

As you wrote earlier, "God is a judge that needs no jury to "do" anything and his actions are not forced by any outside being or entity."  Your actions or lack thereof have no influence upon God's mercy, the same as Jacob and Esau, because as we have both explained it is His decision alone.  God chooses who He shows mercy to and as the quote above states, "God has control; He is the one who, of His own sovereign will, freely chooses those whom He will save. He not only elects those whom He will save, but He actually accomplishes their salvation. Rather than simply make salvation possible, God chooses those whom He will save and then saves them. This view puts God in His proper place as Creator and Sovereign."

(10-13-2016, 08:08 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: For many Christians this is quite the conundrum because we sin daily and never really know if we've been "good enough" to get to heaven but try to have faith that we will get there, and so the possibility that we could end up "missing the mark" and going to hell scares us.

Well, at least you can stop worrying.  You're welcome.

[Dill]

(10-19-2016, 10:32 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Okay lets step away from the bible for a second and think about this in "real world" terms.

Lets say you tell someone "I'll be nice to you if you give me a glass of chocolate milk". This person then comes back to you with a glass of chocolate milk, and as a result you start being nice to them.

Did the person bringing you the chocolate milk FORCE you to be nice to them?

I don't think you have much of a point here.

Okay let's step back to the Bible for a second and think of this in Biblical terms.

Let's say you are God and you tell someone "I'll give you eternal salvation if you recognize me as the one true God obey my many commands and if you don't you will burn in hell forever."  The person then agrees to believe you are the one true God and obey your laws.

Does the person obeying your laws for fear of eternal damnation "force" you to be nice.

HELL NO!  Because you are the almighty. No one forces you to do anything. No higher authority.

And then just to as fine a point as possible on your almightyness, you choose not to "elect" him into heaven anyway, because you are who you are and your actions are just whether you keep your word or not.

And the person can't complain because the creation does not judge his creator, etc.