The President Survival Game

[StLucieBengal]

(07-05-2015, 08:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You mean the freedom of monopolies to exploit their power?

Created the FBI himself, without approval. Seized states lands for parks.... The state's could run parks much easier than the Feds. For starters.

[StLucieBengal]

George Washington 8
John Adams 5
Thomas Jefferson 8
James Madison 7
James Monroe 6
John Quincy Adams 4
Martin Van Buren 6
William Henry Harrison 3
John Tyler 6
James Knox Polk 6
Zachary Taylor 5
Millard Fillmore 4
Franklin Pierce 4
James Buchanan 4
Abraham Lincoln 6
Andrew Johnson 2
Ulysses S. Grant 6
Rutherford B Hayes 5
James Garfield 5
Chester A Arthur 5
Grover Cleveland 7
Benjamin Harrison 5
William McKinley 6
Theodore Roosevelt 8
William H Taft 6
Woodrow Wilson 4
Calvin Coolidge 6
Herbert Hoover 3
Franklin Delano Roosevelt 6
Harry S. Truman 6
Dwight D Eisenhower 9
John Fitzgerald Kennedy 5
Lyndon Baines Johnson 5
Richard Nixon 5
Gerald Ford 3
Jimmy Carter 3
Ronald Reagan 5
George Bush 3
Bill Clinton 3
George W. Bush 3
Barack Obama 6

+ Lincoln - for playing Dixie on the White house lawn in an effort to bring the nation together. While showing the south their due respect.

- Ford - for letting Nixon off the hook and starting a modern day standard of letting a fellow politician off the hook for criminal behavior.

[BmorePat87]

(07-06-2015, 05:34 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: + Lincoln - for playing Dixie on the White house lawn in an effort to bring the nation together.   While showing the south their due respect.  

- Ford - for letting Nixon off the hook and starting a modern day standard of letting a fellow politician off the hook for criminal behavior.

George Washington 8

John Adams 5
Thomas Jefferson 8
James Madison 7
James Monroe 6
John Quincy Adams 4
Martin Van Buren 6
William Henry Harrison 3
John Tyler 6
James Knox Polk 6
Zachary Taylor 5
Millard Fillmore 4
Franklin Pierce 4
James Buchanan 4
Abraham Lincoln 6
Andrew Johnson 2
Ulysses S. Grant 6
Rutherford B Hayes 5
James Garfield 5
Chester A Arthur 5
Grover Cleveland 7
Benjamin Harrison 5
William McKinley 6
Theodore Roosevelt 9
William H Taft 6
Woodrow Wilson 4
Calvin Coolidge 6
Herbert Hoover 3
Franklin Delano Roosevelt 6
Harry S. Truman 6
Dwight D Eisenhower 9
John Fitzgerald Kennedy 5
Lyndon Baines Johnson 5
Richard Nixon 5
Gerald Ford 3
Jimmy Carter 3
Ronald Reagan 5
George Bush 3
Bill Clinton 3
George W. Bush 3
Barack Obama 5

ELIMINATED:
Andrew Jackson
Warren G Harding


+ Teddy for the National Parks
- for the ACA

[StLucieBengal]

Hey pat are we allowed to vote for someone more than once? Or are we spreading it out before we can circle around?

[StLucieBengal]

“I’ll have those n*****s voting Democratic for the next 200 years.” —Lyndon B. Johnson to two governors on Air Force One –

“These Negroes, they’re getting pretty uppity these days and that’s a problem for us since they’ve got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we’ve got to do something about this, we’ve got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference.”—LBJ

[BmorePat87]

(07-06-2015, 10:14 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Hey pat are we allowed to vote for someone more than once?  Or are we spreading it out before we can circle around?

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. If you like one person, keep voting for 'em.

[*michaelsean*]

George Washington 8

John Adams 5
Thomas Jefferson 8
James Madison 7
James Monroe 6
John Quincy Adams 4
Martin Van Buren 6
William Henry Harrison 3
John Tyler 6
James Knox Polk 6
Zachary Taylor 5
Millard Fillmore 4
Franklin Pierce 4
James Buchanan 4
Abraham Lincoln 6
Andrew Johnson 2
Ulysses S. Grant 6
Rutherford B Hayes 5
James Garfield 5
Chester A Arthur 5
Grover Cleveland 7
Benjamin Harrison 5
William McKinley 6
Theodore Roosevelt 9
William H Taft 6
Woodrow Wilson 4
Calvin Coolidge 6
Herbert Hoover 3
Franklin Delano Roosevelt 6
Harry S. Truman 6
Dwight D Eisenhower 9
John Fitzgerald Kennedy 5
Lyndon Baines Johnson 5
Richard Nixon 5
Gerald Ford 3
Jimmy Carter 3
Ronald Reagan 5
George Bush 3
Bill Clinton 3
George W. Bush 3
Barack Obama 5

ELIMINATED:
Andrew Jackson
Warren G Harding

+1 Lincoln for "With malice toward none, with charity for all..."
-1 FDR for trying to stack SCOTUS.

[BmorePat87]

(07-09-2015, 10:21 AM)michaelsean Wrote: George Washington 8

John Adams 5
Thomas Jefferson 8
James Madison 7
James Monroe 6
John Quincy Adams 4
Martin Van Buren 6
William Henry Harrison 3
John Tyler 6
James Knox Polk 6
Zachary Taylor 5
Millard Fillmore 4
Franklin Pierce 4
James Buchanan 4
Abraham Lincoln 6
Andrew Johnson 1
Ulysses S. Grant 6
Rutherford B Hayes 5
James Garfield 5
Chester A Arthur 5
Grover Cleveland 7
Benjamin Harrison 5
William McKinley 6
Theodore Roosevelt 9
William H Taft 6
Woodrow Wilson 4
Calvin Coolidge 6
Herbert Hoover 3
Franklin Delano Roosevelt 6
Harry S. Truman 6
Dwight D Eisenhower 9
John Fitzgerald Kennedy 5
Lyndon Baines Johnson 5
Richard Nixon 5
Gerald Ford 3
Jimmy Carter 3
Ronald Reagan 5
George Bush 4
Bill Clinton 3
George W. Bush 3
Barack Obama 5

ELIMINATED:
Andrew Jackson
Warren G Harding

+Bush for Desert Storm being a great example of how to foreign policy post Cold War
-1 Johnson for failing to help freed blacks in the South following the Civil War.

[Belsnickel]

George Washington 8
John Adams 5
Thomas Jefferson 8
James Madison 8
James Monroe 6
John Quincy Adams 4
Martin Van Buren 6
William Henry Harrison 3
John Tyler 6
James Knox Polk 6
Zachary Taylor 5
Millard Fillmore 4
Franklin Pierce 4
James Buchanan 4
Abraham Lincoln 6
Ulysses S. Grant 6
Rutherford B Hayes 5
James Garfield 5
Chester A Arthur 5
Grover Cleveland 7
Benjamin Harrison 5
William McKinley 6
Theodore Roosevelt 9
William H Taft 6
Woodrow Wilson 4
Calvin Coolidge 6
Herbert Hoover 3
Franklin Delano Roosevelt 6
Harry S. Truman 6
Dwight D Eisenhower 9
John Fitzgerald Kennedy 5
Lyndon Baines Johnson 5
Richard Nixon 5
Gerald Ford 3
Jimmy Carter 3
Ronald Reagan 5
George Bush 4
Bill Clinton 3
George W. Bush 3
Barack Obama 5

ELIMINATED:
Andrew Jackson
Andrew Johnson
Warren G Harding

+ to Madison for being the last POTUS to actually lead troops while in office.
- to Johnson for not having the cojones to deal with Reconstruction in a productive way and stand up to the legislature for Lincoln's plans.

[fredtoast]

(07-09-2015, 03:26 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: “I’ll have those n*****s voting Democratic for the next 200 years.” —Lyndon B. Johnson to two governors on Air Force One –

“These Negroes, they’re getting pretty uppity these days and that’s a problem for us since they’ve got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we’ve got to do something about this, we’ve got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference.”—LBJ

Link to source?

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(07-09-2015, 06:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Link to source?

I did a quick google search and found this.  I think people can forget that context can mean a lot.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2088gl

Here are the claimed quotes from Lyndon B. Johnson (warning language):

Lyndon Baines Johnson 1963... "These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference... I'll have them niggers voting Democratic for the next two hundred years".
I did some googling, and it seems that the only source I could find linked to this was from an unofficial biography. I was wondering if /r/AskHistorians could weigh in on the issue?

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sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

As other comments noted, the quote is attributed to LBJ in Ronald Kessler's book, and was supposedly said to two southern governors. But in the absence of a reliable objective record of that quotation, among the best sources to answer your question are the presidential recordings made during the Johnson administration, which I've listened to at length during my undergrad studies. Several hundred conversations were recorded dealing with issues of racial politics and the Civil Rights Act of 1964. A discussion of those conversations can be found here.
Now, a quote like the one in OP's question is not found in any of these recordings, nor do they contain the oft-cited statement to Bill Moyers that LBJ had "lost to the South to the GOP for a generation." But they do provide excellent insight into how LBJ talked about these issues in private. For example, it is simply undisputed that LBJ did use the prevailing southern racial slurs of the time, including the word "n-----r," as this actual recording demonstrates. This is hardly the only example.
Another famous example is cited in "Lone Star Rising: Lyndon Johnson and His Times, 1908-1960", by Robert Dallek. Johnson defended the Supreme Court appointment of the famous Thurgood Marshall, rather than a black judge less identified with the civil rights cause, by saying to a staff member, "Son, when I appoint a n-----r to the court, I want everyone to know he's a n-----r."
That being said, for a rural-born white Texan in the late 1960s, the collected recordings show that LBJ had some astonishingly progressive views on race in America, but his nomenclature leaves something to be desired. It is also worth noting that LBJ knew his audience, and would speak differently to a Georgia state legislator than, say, a Connecticut governor. It's very difficult to tell when LBJ is putting on an act for audience or when he's speaking with his "true" voice. Additionally, I tend to detect a bit of self-aware irony in some of LBJ's discussion of these issues. I think that's key to understanding how LBJ could say the most radically progressive statements while simultaneously using a racial slur.
But given the tone and tenor of LBJ's conversations on these issues, I think the best we can say is that the quote cited by OP is not inconsistent with LBJ's style. But it seems unlikely that we will ever know if those exact words were uttered. From my own studies, I personally think the quote is either genuine or a fair paraphrase. It's the kind of thing LBJ might say to a Dixiecrat to convince them not to oppose the CRA. Thus, if anyone got "tricked" over the CRA, it wasn't black America -- it was Southern conservative democrats. In other words, as u/Thurgood_Marshall and others note below, while the quote might be genuine, the sentiment was not.
So, I think it does a disservice when these kinds of quotes are used to suggest that LBJ was duplicitous and uncaring about black America. Personally, I have no doubt over the bona fides of LBJ's empathy and humanity after listening to the conversations in June of 1963 during the Freedom Summer disappearances, where LBJ was positively distraught.
It's also revealing that on July 24, 1964, Barry Goldwater met with LBJ in the White House to discuss the issue of race in the presidential campaigns. Goldwater suggested that both campaigns not address the issue of race in order to avoid inflaming racial tensions. LBJ strongly disagreed. There is no doubt from the presidential recordings that LBJ considered race problems to be an issue of morality, going so far as to compare the CRA of 1964 as a moral challenge similar to that facing the Lincoln administration over whether to pursue the 13th Amendment.
EDIT: Because it hasn't been mentioned yet, I will add that the source of the quotation, Ronald Kessler, is not what I would call an unbiased historian. Mr. Kessler has been the chief Washington correspondent for the far-right-wing Newsmax. He is known for incorrectly reporting that Barack Obama was present for Rev. Wright's "white arrogance" sermon, among other controversies. I'm not saying he's a bad journalist, and I'm not indicting his politics. I'm just saying that he comes to the table with his own biases.
TOP LEVEL EDIT: The more I consider the OP's quote in light of my own time listening to the recordings at the LBJ library at the University of Texas, the more I am convinced that LBJ is putting on an act to these two southern governors to quiet their rancor over his pursuit of the CRA. I think the statements in OP's quote directly conflict with Johnson's private understanding of just how transformative the CRA would be, both politically and legally.
Also, I think he absolutely knows, at the moment that he is smiling and assuring these good ole boys that their political future is secure, that he is actually about to end their careers, as well as the present and future careers of a great many other conservative democrats in the south (as reflected in the Moyers quote, above).
I won't begin to deny that LBJ was a ruthless political operator, and indeed, an unrepentant liar. But I cringe that this single quote, robbed of its context, would be used by some to imply that LBJ was a heartless racist manipulator. That's one notion that I think the historical record soundly disproves.

[fredtoast]

(07-09-2015, 08:40 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: I did a quick google search and found this.  I think people can forget that context can mean a lot.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2088gl

Here are the claimed quotes from Lyndon B. Johnson (warning language):

Lyndon Baines Johnson 1963... "These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference... I'll have them niggers voting Democratic for the next two hundred years".
I did some googling, and it seems that the only source I could find linked to this was from an unofficial biography. I was wondering if /r/AskHistorians could weigh in on the issue?

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sorry, this has been archived and can no longer be voted on

As other comments noted, the quote is attributed to LBJ in Ronald Kessler's book, and was supposedly said to two southern governors. But in the absence of a reliable objective record of that quotation, among the best sources to answer your question are the presidential recordings made during the Johnson administration, which I've listened to at length during my undergrad studies. Several hundred conversations were recorded dealing with issues of racial politics and the Civil Rights Act of 1964. A discussion of those conversations can be found here.
Now, a quote like the one in OP's question is not found in any of these recordings, nor do they contain the oft-cited statement to Bill Moyers that LBJ had "lost to the South to the GOP for a generation." But they do provide excellent insight into how LBJ talked about these issues in private. For example, it is simply undisputed that LBJ did use the prevailing southern racial slurs of the time, including the word "n-----r," as this actual recording demonstrates. This is hardly the only example.
Another famous example is cited in "Lone Star Rising: Lyndon Johnson and His Times, 1908-1960", by Robert Dallek. Johnson defended the Supreme Court appointment of the famous Thurgood Marshall, rather than a black judge less identified with the civil rights cause, by saying to a staff member, "Son, when I appoint a n-----r to the court, I want everyone to know he's a n-----r."
That being said, for a rural-born white Texan in the late 1960s, the collected recordings show that LBJ had some astonishingly progressive views on race in America, but his nomenclature leaves something to be desired. It is also worth noting that LBJ knew his audience, and would speak differently to a Georgia state legislator than, say, a Connecticut governor. It's very difficult to tell when LBJ is putting on an act for audience or when he's speaking with his "true" voice. Additionally, I tend to detect a bit of self-aware irony in some of LBJ's discussion of these issues. I think that's key to understanding how LBJ could say the most radically progressive statements while simultaneously using a racial slur.
But given the tone and tenor of LBJ's conversations on these issues, I think the best we can say is that the quote cited by OP is not inconsistent with LBJ's style. But it seems unlikely that we will ever know if those exact words were uttered. From my own studies, I personally think the quote is either genuine or a fair paraphrase. It's the kind of thing LBJ might say to a Dixiecrat to convince them not to oppose the CRA. Thus, if anyone got "tricked" over the CRA, it wasn't black America -- it was Southern conservative democrats. In other words, as u/Thurgood_Marshall and others note below, while the quote might be genuine, the sentiment was not.
So, I think it does a disservice when these kinds of quotes are used to suggest that LBJ was duplicitous and uncaring about black America. Personally, I have no doubt over the bona fides of LBJ's empathy and humanity after listening to the conversations in June of 1963 during the Freedom Summer disappearances, where LBJ was positively distraught.
It's also revealing that on July 24, 1964, Barry Goldwater met with LBJ in the White House to discuss the issue of race in the presidential campaigns. Goldwater suggested that both campaigns not address the issue of race in order to avoid inflaming racial tensions. LBJ strongly disagreed. There is no doubt from the presidential recordings that LBJ considered race problems to be an issue of morality, going so far as to compare the CRA of 1964 as a moral challenge similar to that facing the Lincoln administration over whether to pursue the 13th Amendment.
EDIT: Because it hasn't been mentioned yet, I will add that the source of the quotation, Ronald Kessler, is not what I would call an unbiased historian. Mr. Kessler has been the chief Washington correspondent for the far-right-wing Newsmax. He is known for incorrectly reporting that Barack Obama was present for Rev. Wright's "white arrogance" sermon, among other controversies. I'm not saying he's a bad journalist, and I'm not indicting his politics. I'm just saying that he comes to the table with his own biases.
TOP LEVEL EDIT: The more I consider the OP's quote in light of my own time listening to the recordings at the LBJ library at the University of Texas, the more I am convinced that LBJ is putting on an act to these two southern governors to quiet their rancor over his pursuit of the CRA. I think the statements in OP's quote directly conflict with Johnson's private understanding of just how transformative the CRA would be, both politically and legally.
Also, I think he absolutely knows, at the moment that he is smiling and assuring these good ole boys that their political future is secure, that he is actually about to end their careers, as well as the present and future careers of a great many other conservative democrats in the south (as reflected in the Moyers quote, above).
I won't begin to deny that LBJ was a ruthless political operator, and indeed, an unrepentant liar. But I cringe that this single quote, robbed of its context, would be used by some to imply that LBJ was a heartless racist manipulator. That's one notion that I think the historical record soundly disproves.

They don't even identify the governors?  And the author is part of the right wing rhetoric machine?  This seems pretty shady to me.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-09-2015, 06:40 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Sorry I didn't respond sooner. If you like one person, keep voting for 'em.

No worries.   Thanks for answering

[StLucieBengal]

(07-09-2015, 10:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They don't even identify the governors?  And the author is part of the right wing rhetoric machine?  This seems pretty shady to me.

Feel free to do some additional homework. Why would you cut him any slack when using this type of language?

His hisory of being anti black is fairly long in his actions and his legislation.

He wasn't all bad. But there is no reason to cover up when he was wrong. That's the problem is people wanna White wash the terrible because he signed the CRA, when he had no choice because of a veto proof congress.

Civil rights were happening no matter what LBJ did, he just decided to go along for the glory ... And obviously .... The votes

[fredtoast]

(07-09-2015, 11:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Feel free to do some additional homework.   Why would you cut him any slack when using this type of language?  

His hisory of being anti black is fairly long in his actions and his legislation.  

He wasn't all bad.   But there is no reason to cover up when he was wrong.   That's the problem is people wanna White wash the terrible because he signed the CRA, when he had no choice because of a veto proof congress.  

Civil rights were happening no matter what LBJ did, he just decided to go along for the glory ...  And obviously .... The votes

LBJ championed the CRA before he was even President.

What actions and legislation of his proves he is anti-black?  And why didn't you post that instead of some quotes from unnamed sources written by a member of the right wing rhetoric machine?

[StLucieBengal]

George Washington 8
John Adams 5
Thomas Jefferson 8
James Madison 8
James Monroe 6
John Quincy Adams 4
Martin Van Buren 6
William Henry Harrison 3
John Tyler 6
James Knox Polk 6
Zachary Taylor 5
Millard Fillmore 4
Franklin Pierce 4
James Buchanan 4
Abraham Lincoln 6
Ulysses S. Grant 6
Rutherford B Hayes 5
James Garfield 5
Chester A Arthur 5
Grover Cleveland 7
Benjamin Harrison 5
William McKinley 6
Theodore Roosevelt 9
William H Taft 6
Woodrow Wilson 3
Calvin Coolidge 7
Herbert Hoover 3
Franklin Delano Roosevelt 6
Harry S. Truman 6
Dwight D Eisenhower 9
John Fitzgerald Kennedy 5
Lyndon Baines Johnson 5
Richard Nixon 5
Gerald Ford 3
Jimmy Carter 3
Ronald Reagan 5
George Bush 4
Bill Clinton 3
George W. Bush 3
Barack Obama 5

ELIMINATED:
Andrew Jackson
Andrew Johnson
Warren G Harding

+ coolidge - dropping tax rates

- Wilson - using the KKK to hunt down Amercian citizens with german backgrounds

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(07-09-2015, 10:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They don't even identify the governors?  And the author is part of the right wing rhetoric machine?  This seems pretty shady to me.

Not sure if you read that completely or just skimmed it.  But I posted it because it comes to a couple of conclusions one of them being that there is no official record of him actually saying what lucy posted.  I was hoping for a link from him as well because I was pretty sure it was inaccurate at best or deliberately misleading at worse. I'm not familiar with the author but the site Reddit  I did not think was right leaning.  That was just the first to come up and I did see an article by MSNBC and didn't use it specifically because I knew some would just throw it out for being too far left. I tried to find the one that seemed most objective.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-09-2015, 11:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: LBJ championed the CRA before he was even President.

What actions and legislation of his proves he is anti-black?  And why didn't you post that instead of some quotes from unnamed sources written by a member of the right wing rhetoric machine?

Well for starters ....

Voting aganst all civil rights legislation for over 11 years.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-09-2015, 11:23 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Not sure if you read that completely or just skimmed it.  But I posted it because it comes to a couple of conclusions one of them being that there is no official record of him actually saying what lucy posted.  I was hoping for a link from him as well because I was pretty sure it was inaccurate at best or deliberately misleading at worse. I'm not familiar with the author but the site Reddit  I did not think was right leaning.  That was just the first to come up and I did see an article by MSNBC and didn't use it specifically because I knew some would just throw it out for being too far left. I tried to find the one that seemed most objective.

Richmond I have a source... But I'm not home to post it from my computer. I saved it to my favs. Will post when I get a chance.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(07-09-2015, 11:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Feel free to do some additional homework.   Why would you cut him any slack when using this type of language?  

His hisory of being anti black is fairly long in his actions and his legislation.  

He wasn't all bad.   But there is no reason to cover up when he was wrong.   That's the problem is people wanna White wash the terrible because he signed the CRA, when he had no choice because of a veto proof congress.  

Civil rights were happening no matter what LBJ did, he just decided to go along for the glory ...  And obviously .... The votes

I did do some homework, and even provided a link.  And I think it gives a more complete picture of the man. Your quote (which is pure rumor by two other men btw) was meant to lead people to believe he was a racist bigot.  While that may be true, but it is more complex than that.   Now I am not excusing his use of racial slurs, lets be clear on that. I suggest that you read the article.