The Tax Hoax!

[Dill]

(09-28-2020, 03:01 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Indeed it was. In a sarcastic manner mocking the types of people that would jump to the defense of Trump in this scenario by bringing up the Clintons.

I'm hoping also that there is an implicit comparison between the two differing media environments in which Clinton/Trump finances are reported and evaluated.

Remember Clinton corruption was the big knock against crooked Hillary (outside of the server scandal and Benghazi), resting largely on a whirl of what I'd call  "fact-based rumors"--e.g., Hillary was one of a dozen people who signed off on the sale of Uranium stock=Hillary gave the Russians 20% of US Uranium. The Clinton's probably were selling influence--but for a charitable foundation that actually was a charitable foundation helping hundreds of thousands. 

Now we have yet another fact-based REPORT on Trump's corrupt behavior dismissed as "fake" by the president and minions. And again, it is a description of scam behavior--identifiable grift once the documents are made available.

I want to see how this plays out in the both media environments. The Clinton history offers a baseline for comparison.

[Dill]

(09-28-2020, 03:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It makes no difference to his base.

They don't care how much he lies or how crooked he is.

They don't care that the only way he knew how to pump up the economy was through massive increases in deficit spending.

All they care is that he is not a democrat.

Then there seems to be a parallel between the national economic policy he followed and his own business practices.

Perhaps the COVID response as well. 

[Dill]

This angle on Trump's debts is especially interesting.

Trump's Taxes Show He's a National Security Threat
What trade-offs would a president with this level of indebtedness be willing to make to save face?
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-09-28/trump-s-tax-returns-show-he-s-a-national-security-threat

Step away from the tragicomic tawdriness and grift that the tax returns define, however, and focus on what they reveal about Trump as the most powerful man in the world and occupant of the Oval Office.

Due to his indebtedness, his reliance on income from overseas and his refusal to authentically distance himself from his hodgepodge of business, Trump represents a profound national security threat – a threat that will only escalate if he’s re-elected. The tax returns also show the extent to which Trump has repeatedly betrayed the interests of many of the average Americans who elected him and remain his most loyal supporters.....

Trump has been bloviating about being worth $10 billion ever since he entered the 2016 presidential race, a figure that simply isn’t true. He’s worth a fraction of that amount, and the larger his indebtedness becomes, the more strain it puts on his assets. The Covid-19 pandemic has taken a particularly brutal toll on the sectors in which the Trump Organization operates — real estate, travel and leisure. If Trump is unable to meet his debt payments, he’s either going to have to sell assets or get bailed out by a friend with funds. Trump has never liked to sell anything, even when it’s hemorrhaging money. So if he’s tempted to save himself by getting a handout, that makes him a mark.

If Trump was still just a reality TV oddity, that wouldn’t be earthshaking. But he’s president, and the trade-offs someone like him would be willing to make to save his face and his wallet taint every public policy decision he makes – including issues around national security. If Vladimir Putin, for example, can backchannel a loan or a handout to the president, how hard is Trump going to be on Russia? Not that we should worry about Trump’s relationship with Putin. That’s just a hypothetical question.

[Dill]

https://twitter.com/TimOBrien/status/1310363323066654720/photo/1

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Trump state in 2016 that he hadn't paid Federal income tax in several years?

As to the taxes themselves, very wealthy people use every trick in the book to avoid paying any taxes they can. This is why raising the tax rate on the wealthy won't generate any real revenue.  A reform of the tax exemptions coupled with a reasonable tax on the wealthy will generate much more revenue than simply raising the top tax bracket rate.

[GMDino]

While the (non) defenders try to settle on which defense to use for Trump:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2020/09/28/the-ordinary-taxpayers-guide-to-the-extraordinary-story-of-trumps-tax-returns/#aa3f34e5ba93

Long, fair article.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-28-2020, 04:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Trump state in 2016 that he hadn't paid Federal income tax in several years?

Found it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/10/us/politics/donald-trump-taxes.html

[BigPapaKain]

Insert a shocked Pikacu face.

[jj22]

Melania is the one screwed. She is worth more than Trump and if she leave him will have to split her earnings with him and pay off his depts.

I guess there is the prenup, but Trump can't afford to pay it out. So she still screwed.

#whengolddiggingoeswrong

[*PhilHos*]

I admit. I have paid little to no attention to the Trump tax return news. Can someone tell me as unbaisedly as possible (which means probably only Matt is capable) about why this is bad? Did Trump do something illegal?

[Dill]

(09-28-2020, 04:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Trump state in 2016 that he hadn't paid Federal income tax in several years?

As to the taxes themselves, very wealthy people use every trick in the book to avoid paying any taxes they can. This is why raising the tax rate on the wealthy won't generate any real revenue.  A reform of the tax exemptions coupled with a reasonable tax on the wealthy will generate much more revenue than simply raising the top tax bracket rate.

Yes, and Hillary mentioned that in a debate. Trump responded "That makes me smart."  It is not expected that the newest revelations of poor wealth management will affect Trump supporters, who saw no red flags when he refused to reveal his tax returns. The Dem hope is that it will push more independents toward Biden.

While not paying the taxes needed to run the country, including those needed to fund the military, should be a big issue for a president dedicating his life to national service, that is not the only issue raised by the NYT reporting.

First it appears that all of this tax dodgery is not on the level. It looks like Trump has broken the law repeatedly, forging documents even, to get out of paying taxes. His finances have been a constant churn of money for decades, conning investors and banks, ending in bankruptcies and stiffed creditors. Most surprising is his determination to hold onto properties losing millions year after year. His efforts to use Treasury to keep his tax record out of the courts is more abuse of power.

Second, when US banks would no longer loan to him, money flowed in from abroad--possibly from people wanting more than real estate value--creating personal interests in conflict with the national interest. That, plus the fact that the Coronvirus is hurting his business ("the US needs to open up the economy--Now!"), has made his tremendous debt (about 1 billion, according to a talking head on Deadline Whitehouse today) a security concern, as it renders him vulnerable to foreign leverage. In return for a billion-dollar hotel franchise in Moscow--what?  

Also, some, many, very wealthy people do pay taxes. That is why their proxies in Congress fought so hard to push through Trump's tax cuts. If they did not think raising taxes on them actually generated revenue from them, they would not oppose such taxes as they do.

[Dill]

(09-28-2020, 05:24 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I admit. I have paid little to no attention to the Trump tax return news. Can someone tell me as unbaisedly as possible (which means probably only Matt is capable) about why this is bad? Did Trump do something illegal?

I would ease into the issue a bit at a time. 

Click on the link in post #23 to see why massive debt held by a president, much of it from foreign lenders, 

creates a national security risk.

I don't think Russia would use that to manipulate Trump because Putin is Trump's friend,

but who can tell about other countries?

[BmorePat87]

(09-28-2020, 04:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Trump state in 2016 that he hadn't paid Federal income tax in several years?

As to the taxes themselves, very wealthy people use every trick in the book to avoid paying any taxes they can. This is why raising the tax rate on the wealthy won't generate any real revenue.  A reform of the tax exemptions coupled with a reasonable tax on the wealthy will generate much more revenue than simply raising the top tax bracket rate.

This is why I mentioned that the headline buries a lot of takeaways.

The looming $100m question over whether his refund was warranted. How much money has he been losing. Are the tax tricks he using legal?

But, part of the narrative was that he wasn’t paying taxes due to losses in the 90’s. These show massive losses for the last 2 decades that he’s struggling to overcome.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-28-2020, 04:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Trump state in 2016 that he hadn't paid Federal income tax in several years?

Trump makes contradictory statements on almost every topic. Including taxes. He’s claimed not paying taxes makes him smart while claiming he pays a lot in taxes. That way Trump and his defenders can pick and choose any of his contradictory statements to support any of his contradictory positions. Then flip flop in mid-argument.

“Trump is a tax cheat.”

“Actually, that makes Trump a smart businessman.”

“But, avoiding taxes makes Trump unpatriotic because he isn’t paying his share to support the troops.”

“No one loves the troops more than Trump. He pays more in taxes than you.”

Quote:As to the taxes themselves, very wealthy people use every trick in the book to avoid paying any taxes they can. This is why raising the tax rate on the wealthy won't generate any real revenue.  A reform of the tax exemptions coupled with a reasonable tax on the wealthy will generate much more revenue than simply raising the top tax bracket rate.

They do use every trick in the book. Like paying PACs for political capital to get those exemptions for second houses, yachts, jets, and Aquanet Superhold Hairspray. So if Trump had to pay a reasonable tax, how much do you suppose he would write off for haircuts? 50K instead of 70K?

[Benton]

(09-28-2020, 04:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Found it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/10/us/politics/donald-trump-taxes.html

P-p-p-payyyyyyywallllll



All I remember is when Clinton said his public tax records were few and showed he hadn't paid federal taxes in years and he said that made him smart.

Which I don't disagree with. I also don't agree with the system though.

(09-28-2020, 05:24 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I admit. I have paid little to no attention to the Trump tax return news. Can someone tell me as unbaisedly as possible (which means probably only Matt is capable) about why this is bad? Did Trump do something illegal?

Illegal, probably no.

A sign of what is kicking in the teeth for 90ish% of America? Yes.

Trump is a billionaire. Self-proclaimed, we don't really know. But take him at his word (cause he's soooooo honest) and he's worth $10 billion. But he pays nothing in taxes? At most, $750 in a year? My business made less than a billion last year. Hell, let's be honest: it made a loooooooot less than a billion. I eat a lot of top ramen. But I paid more than $750 in taxes. Like, ten times more.

Why? 

Because I can't afford to shelter a million bucks in my daughters company. 

The tax system in America is ridiculously stacked against small business owners and the middle class. When someone making a billion dollars pays less than someone making $50k, it's a %$&#ed up system. 

Trump, most likely, did nothing illegal. But it's a shining example of what is wrong.

And, as far as elected officials go, why would he fix it?

If Trump keeps the same system in place, he can go on making billions and paying nothing on it. Why would he stop that? What has he done to stop that? Trump had the ability to pass any legislation he wanted. End abortion. Mandate Bible classes in schools. Stop outsourcing labor. 

What did he do? Lowered taxes, primarily on upper class earners.

Trump's tax returns aren't anything surprising. It's just one more thing for one side to say "look at the hypocrisy!" and the other side to say "gosh, he's smart!"

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-29-2020, 02:02 AM)Benton Wrote: P-p-p-payyyyyyywallllll

 

Use incognito mode baby.

Quote:All I remember is when Clinton said his public tax records were few and showed he hadn't paid federal taxes in years and he said that made him smart.

Which I don't disagree with. I also don't agree with the system though.

I think you meant Trump, but I agree.  Our tax system is definitely broken at the higher end.  Increasing the rate is not the only solution though, we need to be smart about closing loopholes.  A significantly higher tax rate just means people move their money out of the country.

[Benton]

(09-29-2020, 03:02 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Use incognito mode baby.


I think you meant Trump, but I agree.  Our tax system is definitely broken at the higher end.  Increasing the rate is not the only solution though, we need to be smart about closing loopholes.  A significantly higher tax rate just means people move their money out of the country.

Oh, I agree 100%. It's not so much about making higher earners pay a supposedly higher rate, the issue is loopholes. You can put the rate as 80% on the top 1%...it means nothing with loopholes that make their effective rate 0.01%.

[BmorePat87]

(09-29-2020, 03:02 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Use incognito mode baby.


I think you meant Trump, but I agree.  Our tax system is definitely broken at the higher end.  Increasing the rate is not the only solution though, we need to be smart about closing loopholes.  A significantly higher tax rate just means people move their money out of the country.

Clinton was the one who pointed it out in debate, referencing documents that he had to turn over when he was opening his casino.

The NYT released a portion of a return a week or so after that.

Trump didn’t disclose any of it himself.

[Dill]

(09-29-2020, 02:02 AM)Benton Wrote: Illegal, probably no.

I'm thinking illegal, probably yes.

He's lost two tax suits in the past, at least one of which showed a willingness to forge documents.

His daughter was an executive officer of the Trump organization when she got that consulting fee, paid to her company.

He's classified the 200-acre Seven Springs Estate estate as "commercial" to avoid 2 million in yearly property taxes--though it is touted as a family retreat in T-organization literature, and used by them as such.

The sheer volume of this sort of thing over decades is likely to have crossed many legal lines many times.

Finally, think of his willingness to funnel Stormy's payments through his presidential campaign. Risks like that come to him instinctively when he is under pressure.

[jj22]

They've already admitted where Trumps big 400 million debt comes from. And we already knew (those who have paid attention)

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/332270-eric-trump-in-2014-we-dont-rely-on-american-banks-we-have-all-the-funding-we#.X3Kb2JoR-fY.twitter

It's well known Putin has something over his head. Also the notion that Trump pays more taxes to other countries (their military, their healthcare) then he does America, completely erases the American first con he's portrayed the last 4 years.

How did we elect someone so indebted to our sworn enemy? And folks going to vote for him again?

Putin likely has all of our National Security secrets. Hopefully the next POTUS can figure out what all he knows and protect us by changing up our codes, and weapons locations. I can imagine Trump "bragging" about stuff to Putin that Putin shouldn't have known (weapons). Kinda like how he told Israel's big intelligent secrets to Putin.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-eyes-putin-meeting-november-election-say-four-people-familiar-n1236861

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/16/politics/donald-trump-putin-helsinki-summit/index.html

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/17/629601233/trumps-helsinki-bow-to-putin-leaves-world-wondering-whats-up