The Trans Movement Just Hit Home.......

[jmccracky]

(05-10-2023, 04:31 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: No. The argument is that not all people who question their gender came to those questions on their own. Dino was pointing to how there's more trans people now because it's more accepted. I don't necessarily disagree with that.

My disagreement is in the organic nature of it all. I don't believe trans people are on the rise because they're all crawling out of the woods. The artificial push of the belief itself is changing the way people think, especially adolescent minds, and as a result you will see more trans people "coming out"

I have a Trans kid. I support the trans community and have several Trans friends, and even frequent a local Trans bar to support my friends. I agree with you though. Doctors are telling folks that they are Trans with hardly any evaluation. That is a real problem. 

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-10-2023, 03:53 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I mean, we could just review the plethora of literature available that discusses the differences between sex, gender, and sexual orientation and how they do not necessarily match with each other. 

See, but this goes back to my first post in this thread.

Why can't men just be really feminine and women be really masculine? Why do you have to make the mental jump that because you act more like the opposite sex that must mean you actually are the opposite sex? I get the idea of wanting to feel comfortable by actually looking like the opposite sex, but I just don't understand why we have to act like you actually are the opposite sex. 

Take for instance gay people. I think you can be gay and not deny the reality that you are the sex you were born as. You're just simply a man that likes men or a woman that likes women. It doesnt mesn youre "in the wrong body".

Why can't we do that when talking about feminine men and masculine women? Why do we have to make that mental jump? So what if you're a dude that wants someone to buy them flowers all the time, or you get super emotional about things in ways that women do, or you want to wear a dress. You can do all of those things and still just be a man. The same goes for women.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-10-2023, 03:12 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ok, well you're free to believe that.  I don't know what I think about trans people but I live in the USA and not Iran, so I realize I may have to just live with society changing yet again.  Stuff changes. 

I know exactly what I think about trans people.. I think they're people who are confusing being the opposite sex with just being very masculine or feminine.

(05-10-2023, 03:15 PM)GMDino Wrote: You could walk around dressed as Vader and people would smile and wave.

You could tell people  you believe you ARE Vader and people would be concerned because he is a fictional character...but if you aren't hurting anyone it's your life.  

But if you dressed like a female and told you people you were a female they'd probably be curious as to why but shrug because it's your life and you aren't hurting anyone.

But when I claim to be a woman and then proceed to beat a woman like a man would, I'd say that's a problem.

[*Nately120*]

(05-10-2023, 06:09 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: But when I claim to be a woman and then proceed to beat a woman like a man would, I'd say that's a problem.

Cis male on cis female violence rates are already so high and lopsided I sincerely doubt this excuse would carry much weight.

[Belsnickel]

(05-10-2023, 05:59 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: See, but this goes back to my first post in this thread.

Why can't men just be really feminine and women be really masculine? Why do you have to make the mental jump that because you act more like the opposite sex that must mean you actually are the opposite sex? I get the idea of wanting to feel comfortable by actually looking like the opposite sex, but I just don't understand why we have to act like you actually are the opposite sex. 

Take for instance gay people. I think you can be gay and not deny the reality that you are the sex you were born as. You're just simply a man that likes men or a woman that likes women. It doesnt mesn youre "in the wrong body".

Why can't we do that when talking about feminine men and masculine women? Why do we have to make that mental jump? So what if you're a dude that wants someone to buy them flowers all the time, or you get super emotional about things in ways that women do, or you want to wear a dress. You can do all of those things and still just be a man. The same goes for women.

So, what you're ignoring here is that biological sex (which is also a spectrum for what it's worth) is different than gender, which is also split up into your identity and your expression. Being trans means that your gender does not match up with your sex. Now, would it be fantastic if we as a society did not assign these traits to align with any particular sex and we weren't judgmental as **** when a male expresses more femininity than society deems acceptable? Sure, but that's not the reality of it. Also, we label things because it makes it easier to put ourselves into groups and interact with our tribes. It's human nature.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-10-2023, 08:13 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, what you're ignoring here is that biological sex (which is also a spectrum for what it's worth) is different than gender, which is also split up into your identity and your expression. Being trans means that your gender does not match up with your sex. Now, would it be fantastic if we as a society did not assign these traits to align with any particular sex and we weren't judgmental as **** when a male expresses more femininity than society deems acceptable? Sure, but that's not the reality of it. Also, we label things because it makes it easier to put ourselves into groups and interact with our tribes. It's human nature.

I actually agree and understand that sex and gender aren't the same. So while it might seem like I'm ignoring that, trust me I'm not.

What I take issue with is saying they are different but then demanding to be treated as if they aren't, because thats actually whats happening here. Trans people aren't saying "I feel like a man. but please treat me like a biological woman" and vice versa. They're saying, "I feel like a man, therefore treat me like a biological man" etc.....

And I'm saying well wait a minute....but you aren't that biologically, so how can you expect me to treat you as such? I'm being told the two are different (which I agree with) but then being told to act like they aren't by affirming the identity they prescribe to.

Again, to me this all comes down to masculinity and femininity and societies inability to just accept the fact that there are "girly men" and "manly women". "Gender Expression" is exactly that. Are you expressing yourself in a masculine way or a feminine way? Perhaps both? Doesn't matter to me. You can express yourself how you like. But the moment you tell me I have to treat you as the buological sex that most corresponds to that expression, well then you're completely blurring the "they're not the same" line and asking me to distort reality for you.

[Dill]

(05-10-2023, 04:31 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: No. The argument is that not all people who question their gender came to those questions on their own. Dino was pointing to how there's more trans people now because it's more accepted. I don't necessarily disagree with that.

My disagreement is in the organic nature of it all. I don't believe trans people are on the rise because they're all crawling out of the woods. The artificial push of the belief itself is changing the way people think, especially adolescent minds, and as a result you will see more trans people "coming out"

Well, I can definitely see why people would NOT "come out" if there were a tremendous social price to pay in ostracism and bullying.

So I can see how for decades people might not want to come out and pay that price.

If that price lessens, then I can see how people who otherwise would not come out, might risk it. "On the rise" only means l less than .01% of the population are coming out as trans. Still not much.  Does that make sense?

Where does the "artificial push" come from, in your view. Kids school books? Is there a Disney movie about trans kids? just wondering.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-11-2023, 09:07 AM)GMDino Wrote: I mean this sounds like a you problem, not a them problem.

Why is it hard to treat people the way the want to be treated?  Especially if they aren't hurting anyone else?

We had a student when my sone was in HS that wanted to be identified as a boy  "Sam" instead of as a girl "Samantha".  So we called him Sam and that was that.  No one complained to the school board or made social media posts about how this goes against society.  We said ok and everyone went on with their life.

Some of our kids friends identify as bi-sexual, asexual, gay, trans, straight...we call them by their name and welcome them into our homes equally.  

It's really not hard.

Why is it so hard? Well there's a few reasons.

The main one is religious, which I'm not going to bother getting into all that.

The second reason is because you're asking me to take part in what I believe is a fantasy that has a much bigger impact on society than making kids believe Santa Claus is real. People have gotten fired for misgendering people.

Third, biology matters to me. The fact that men are bigger, stronger, faster etc... than women is important. People always use this tired saying of "It's not hurting you" and that s completely missing the entire context of the argument. This isn't about trans people wanting to be the opposite sex. It's about trans people wanting everyone else to treat them as the opposite sex. But doing so comes with numerous complications on a societal level.

You're completely dumbing this down to "If someone wants to be called Sam then call them Sam" when it's way more complicated of a subject than that.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-11-2023, 09:30 AM)Dill Wrote: Well, I can definitely see why people would NOT "come out" if there were a tremendous social price to pay in ostracism and bullying.

So I can see how for decades people might not want to come out and pay that price.

If that price lessens, then I can see how people who otherwise would not come out, might risk it. "On the rise" only means l less than .01% of the population are coming out as trans. Still not much.  Does that make sense?

Where does the "artificial push" come from, in your view. Kids school books? Is there a Disney movie about trans kids? just wondering.

The artifical push is in the presentation itself. Doesn't matter if it's books, Disney. Netflix, Jif Peanut Butter. If it's being presented from someone else then it's artificially being put into the minds of those who never thought that way. Organic insight comes from one's self rather than outside forces. Let's not pretend like everyone that has ever thought of being trans came to that thought process on their own. You tell a kid they can be Spiderman, the kids going to try and be Spiderman. I remember when I was younger and I thought magicians were actually cutting people in half and believed that to be "reality".

[GMDino]

(05-11-2023, 10:44 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Why is it so hard? Well there's a few reasons.

The main one is religious, which I'm not going to bother getting into all that.

The second reason is because you're asking me to take part in what I believe is a fantasy that has a much bigger impact on society than making kids believe Santa Claus is real. People have gotten fired for misgendering people.

Third, biology matters to me. The fact that men are bigger, stronger, faster etc... than women is important. People always use this tired saying of "It's not hurting you" and that s completely missing the entire context of the argument. This isn't about trans people wanting to be the opposite sex. It's about trans people wanting everyone else to treat them as the opposite sex. But doing so comes with numerous complications on a societal level.

You're completely dumbing this down to "If someone wants to be called Sam then call them Sam" when it's way more complicated of a subject than that.

First, that might be your religion...but does it say to not treat others with kindness?

Second, simply acknowledging others as they are won't get anyone fired.  Like I said, calling someone Sam vs Samantha didn't hurt a single soul.  And just to tie it into #1: Does telling children they will burn for all eternity if they are "bad" hurt children?

3rd: That's great...for you.  

You are the one complicating a problem that isn't nearly as big as you think it is.  Obviously you have sever problems with it for several different reasons but not one trans person is affecting your life (at least you didn't say so) and the "societal problems" are the ones that come up with every new group that wants to be treated equally.  

Women can't ride horses! (Or vote...or get divorced...or have their own credit card...or...)  
Blacks can't drink our water! (Or stay in our hotels...or eat in out restaurants...or..) 
Gays can't run churches! (Or get married...or adopt...or...)


Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

[*Nately120*]

(05-11-2023, 10:59 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: The artifical push is in the presentation itself. Doesn't matter if it's books, Disney. Netflix, Jif Peanut Butter. If it's being presented from someone else then it's artificially being put into the minds of those who never thought that way. Organic insight comes from one's self rather than outside forces. Let's not pretend like everyone that has ever thought of being trans came to that thought process on their own. You tell a kid they can be Spiderman, the kids going to try and be Spiderman. I remember when I was younger and I thought magicians were actually cutting people in half and believed that to be "reality".

This all reminds me of when Bill Clinton and Tipper Gore wanted to save kids from the devastating influence of Joe Camel and heavy metal. Maybe both sides really are the same.

Of course I'm so lame I Once bought Lucky Strikes and sensen mints because billy Joel mentioned them. I was such a badass.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-11-2023, 11:02 AM)GMDino Wrote: First, that might be your religion...but does it say to not treat others with kindness?

I'm not saying trans people need to be stoned to death. I'm just saying I can't support their belief because I feel it contradicts with my own.

Quote:Second, simply acknowledging others as they are won't get anyone fired.  Like I said, calling someone Sam vs Samantha didn't hurt a single soul. 

This has nothing to do with someone changing their name. You can change your name all you want, that has no bearing on society in ways that wanting to be treated as the opposite sex does. 

Quote:And just to tie it into #1: Does telling children they will burn for all eternity if they are "bad" hurt children?

Depends on what you mean by "hurt children". That could mean a number of things.

Quote:3rd: That's great...for you.  

Great for me? Biological differences between men and women should matter to everyone.

Quote:You are the one complicating a problem that isn't nearly as big as you think it is.  Obviously you have sever problems with it for several different reasons but not one trans person is affecting your life (at least you didn't say so) and the "societal problems" are the ones that come up with every new group that wants to be treated equally.  

The fallacy here is thinking that in order for people to care about something it has to have directly affected them. Do you have to wait for your closest friend or relative to get shot before your care about guns?

Quote:Women can't ride horses! (Or vote...or get divorced...or have their own credit card...or...)  
Blacks can't drink our water! (Or stay in our hotels...or eat in out restaurants...or..) 
Gays can't run churches! (Or get married...or adopt...or...)

Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

Explain to me how any of this is relevant.

[GMDino]

(05-11-2023, 01:13 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I'm not saying trans people need to be stoned to death. I'm just saying I can't support their belief because I feel it contradicts with my own.


This has nothing to do with someone changing their name. You can change your name all you want, that has no bearing on society in ways that wanting to be treated as the opposite sex does. 


Depends on what you mean by "hurt children". That could mean a number of things.




Great for me? Biological differences between men and women should matter to everyone.




The fallacy here is thinking that in order for people to care about something it has to have directly affected them. Do you have to wait for your closest friend or relative to get shot before your care about guns?




Explain to me how any of this is relevant.

You seem to have personal reasons for being against trans people.  I'm saying none of your personal reasons will stop them from existing or make it that they are harming anyone by existing.

Children get indoctrinated by fear of hell from a very young age.  They are taught that if they don't do exactly as they are told they will suffer for all eternity.  Is that better than them knowing that some men and women feel they were born into the wrong body and choose to live as the opposite sex?

Guns are a nationwide problem that affect people's lives.  Being trans is not.

And my point was that every time "society" fears some group they are told what they can and can't do because they are "different".  Trans people just want people to accept them as they are.  No more, no less.  You don't have to like or encourage it.  In fact you can openly ignore it.  And nothing will change.

Instead there are groups of politicians actively trying to make their lives harder.  

[Belsnickel]

(05-11-2023, 01:13 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I'm not saying trans people need to be stoned to death. I'm just saying I can't support their belief because I feel it contradicts with my own.

What does belief have to do with it? We're talking about science.

[Lucidus]

(05-10-2023, 04:57 PM)jmccracky Wrote: I have a Trans kid. I support the trans community and have several Trans friends, and even frequent a local Trans bar to support my friends. I agree with you though. Doctors are telling folks that they are Trans with hardly any evaluation. That is a real problem. 

Could you provide some verified examples of this occurring; a doctor telling a child they're trans with minimal evaluation?

[jmccracky]

(05-11-2023, 02:34 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Could you provide some verified examples of this occurring; a doctor telling a child they're trans with minimal evaluation?

Unfortunately I cannot. I'm only using my own experience with people I know and have conversed wirh that are Trans. Same as my wife, who has mostly LGBTQ+ friends and clients. I would love to be corrected though. I understand that my "evidence" is weak lol. Maybe it's only a freak thing with all the people we've 
met and got to know? But it's concerning to me because I've heard these stories a lot, and in person. 

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-11-2023, 01:20 PM)GMDino Wrote: You seem to have personal reasons for being against trans people.  I'm saying none of your personal reasons will stop them from existing or make it that they are harming anyone by existing.

I missed the part where I said trans people should stop existing. My beliefs don't have to make anything. It's simply a fact that people are affected by it. Are you denying that?

Quote:Children get indoctrinated by fear of hell from a very young age.  They are taught that if they don't do exactly as they are told they will suffer for all eternity.  Is that better than them knowing that some men and women feel they were born into the wrong body and choose to live as the opposite sex?

I'll answer this question by asking you a question.

What's easier.

Reverting back to an atheist after becoming Christian, or reverting back to a man after going through all the therapy to become a woman? 

Quote:Guns are a nationwide problem that affect people's lives.  Being trans is not.

So youre willing to claim people's lives aren't affected by this?

Quote:And my point was that every time "society" fears some group they are told what they can and can't do because they are "different".  

I'm not saying trans people can't be trans. I'm saying they can't expect me to agree with them. If you think I'm standing at bathroom entrances with a machete, trust me I'm not.

Quote:Trans people just want people to accept them as they are.  No more, no less.  You don't have to like or encourage it.  In fact you can openly ignore it.  And nothing will change.

That's not true though. Affirming someone's sexual identity is in fact encouraging it. You're literally telling them they're right. 

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-11-2023, 02:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: What does belief have to do with it? We're talking about science.

We're talking about belief. People saying they're born in the wrong body is literally a belief.

[GMDino]

(05-11-2023, 03:17 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I missed the part where I said trans people should stop existing. My beliefs don't have to make anything. It's simply a fact that people are affected by it. Are you denying that?


I'll answer this question by asking you a question.

What's easier.

Reverting back to an atheist after becoming Christian, or reverting back to a man after going through all the therapy to become a woman? 


So youre willing to claim people's lives aren't affected by this?



I'm not saying trans people can't be trans. I'm saying they can't expect me to agree with them. If you think I'm standing at bathroom entrances with a machete, trust me I'm not.



That's not true though. Affirming someone's sexual identity is in fact encouraging it. You're literally telling them they're right. 

Ok, obviously you can refuse to agree as long as you aren't on the street bemoaning them.  Unfortunately politicians, church leaders and some other people are not only doing that but doing everything in their power to make sure the can't exist.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-11-2023, 02:27 PM)Lucidus Wrote:

Transgender people aren't wanting to be the "opposite sex". Sex refers to a biological classification. They are well aware of that classification. They are also aware that being born with male / female biological markers and identifiers is completely separate from internal identity; gender.

Except people are having reassignment surgery. How is that not wanting to be the opposite sex?

Quote:I'm homosexual. While my biologically male classification indicates that I am reproductively compatible with with biological females, it said absolutely nothing about whether I would be sexually attracted to them. Sexual preference, like gender identity, is something that can only be known and determined by the individual. 

Right.

But that doesn't mean people can't be swayed into believing they're something they're not.