The Trans Movement Just Hit Home.......

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-04-2023, 05:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm always curious about how people who insist on a binary definition of gender that is tied to a binary definition of sex really define male and female. It's definitely not as black and white as people would like to make it seem.

I agree that it's not as black and white, but on the other hand I feel it's also being over complicated.

In my opinion, I don't believe how you feel matters. I believe you can feel very feminine but that doesn't mean you are, or have to be a woman. That is likewise for the masculine side. It's like we slingshotted ourselves past the idea that men can be feminine and women can be masculine and just went "actually you can just BE the opposite sex". How about instead of "I feel like a woman" or "I feel like a man" it's just "I feel very feminine" or "I feel very masculine" because to me, that's actually what trans people are saying. But instead of keeping it that simple it gets turned into "I feel like a man/woman" which then becomes "I feel, therefore I am" which I don't believe to be true.

To me, gender comes down to the sum of the parts that make us male and female. If your body is primarily composed of male traits, then you are a man. If your body is composed of primarily female traits, then you are a woman. How you "feel" doesn't negate that reality. Now, of course you can decide to say you're whatever you want to be, but I do believe there are standards to gender and that it's not whimsical.

Has anyone ever asked themselves why people are debating about whether a male is a male and a female is a female and not some other "thing"? Of course not, because the answer is obvious. People are arguing about two genders (male and female) because that's all that exists. 

Gender is on a spectrum in the sense that not all men are Arnold Swartzenegger and not all women are Marilyn Monroe. Men can be more feminine than usual and women can be more masculine than usual, but it's almost as if society wants to say, "No that's not true, they're just in the wrong bodies".  My argument is, no, they're in the right body, they just don't like all the things men/women usually like, and to me that's okay. I don't understand why we have to uproot reality and over complicate things to avoid saying this.

[BFritz21]

(05-04-2023, 06:01 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: They actually tend to refer to those as gender affirming surgeries these days, and it really boils down to what someone does to be happy in their body. I would say that it is on par with breast augmentation when it comes down to it.

False. Breast augmentation is about looks.

[BFritz21]

If transgender has always been natural and happening, why is there just now such an increase in people who identify as transgender?

And even if you think it's still as accepted as it should be, it's accepted more than it has been in the past, so why's there such an epidemic in suicide among transgender people?

[Belsnickel]

(05-04-2023, 07:59 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: False. Breast augmentation is about looks.

It's not just about looks for everyone I know who has had it done. Sure, superficially we see any plastic surgery as being "about looks" but for most people getting it done it is more about making their body represent their idea of what they should look like. An outward representation of their inner self. That is the same thing.

So much of what we do is gender affirming. Deciding to shave or not, how we dress, how we get our hair cut, all of these things are ways we express our gender every day. Some people use surgical methods and it isn't always a trans person doing so.

(05-04-2023, 08:02 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: If transgender has always been natural and happening, why is there just now such an increase in people who identify as transgender?

And even if you think it's still as accepted as it should be, it's accepted more than it has been in the past, so why's there such an epidemic in suicide among transgender people?

Is there an increase in people who identify as transgender or is there an increase in the awareness of it?

Is it accepted more than it has been in the past? Maybe in our culture, but not in comparison to some others around the world throughout history. Also, there are more external societal pressures on people today than ever before thanks to social media and the internet as a whole. People are much more likely to be bullied because there is more access to them.

[CJD]

(05-04-2023, 07:59 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: False. Breast augmentation is about looks.

Let's say there is a cis woman who, her entire life, was mistaken for a boy. Not by choice, but she just didn't have very many curves, she didn't have the typical delicate features of a woman,  was tall and had broad shoulders. 

One day, she decided that she was tired of being mistaken for a boy and chose to go get breast augmentation to have large DD breasts.

Would this not be gender affirming surgery? She is using surgery to tailor her looks to more align with both her biological sex and her gender identity as a cis woman.

(05-04-2023, 08:02 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: If transgender has always been natural and happening, why is there just now such an increase in people who identify as transgender?

And even if you think it's still as accepted as it should be, it's accepted more than it has been in the past, so why's there such an epidemic in suicide among transgender people?

Why did the number of people who write left handed increase when it was no longer considered the sign of the devil?


Why did the number of people who identify as gay increase when anti sodomy laws were revoked and gay marriage as legalized? 

Social stigma has a lot to do with who is and is not willing to come out of the closet. There were times when it was common for your parents to throw you out of the house if they believed you were gay. Of course people would not identify as such if it risked losing their family or friends or job. They'd just deny their feelings (often resulting in depression) or would just live a double life, etc had its own terrible ripple effects.

And suicide rates in transgender people decline RAPIDLY once they feel accepted.

[BFritz21]

(05-04-2023, 08:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It's not just about looks for everyone I know who has had it done. Sure, superficially we see any plastic surgery as being "about looks" but for most people getting it done it is more about making their body represent their idea of what they should look like. An outward representation of their inner self. That is the same thing.

You think it's not all about looks because some people want their body to "look" a certain way?

(05-04-2023, 08:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So much of what we do is gender affirming. Deciding to shave or not, how we dress, how we get our hair cut, all of these things are ways we express our gender every day. Some people use surgical methods and it isn't always a trans person doing so. 

Ok, so people want to look more like a woman, which they are.

A transgender person wants to look like the opposite sex, which they're not.

(05-04-2023, 08:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Is there an increase in people who identify as transgender or is there an increase in the awareness of it?

An increase in people who identify as it.

(05-04-2023, 08:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Is it accepted more than it has been in the past? Maybe in our culture, but not in comparison to some others around the world throughout history. Also, there are more external societal pressures on people today than ever before thanks to social media and the internet as a whole. People are much more likely to be bullied because there is more access to them.

Just a maybe? It's a lot more accepted.

People ware bullied online because they're transgender? I think people that add people on social media know if the person that added them is transgender.

[Belsnickel]

(05-04-2023, 08:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You think it's not all about looks because some people want their body to "look" a certain way?

What I am saying is that saying it is just about looks is more superficial than the reality of it.

(05-04-2023, 08:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Ok, so people want to look more like a woman, which they are.

A transgender person wants to look like the opposite sex, which they're not.

A trans person wants to outwardly express their gender in a way that matches how they see themself. Same as anyone else.

(05-04-2023, 08:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: An increase in people who identify as it.

Do you have facts to back up this claim?

(05-04-2023, 08:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Just a maybe? It's a lot more accepted.

Again, in our culture. Not in all cultures around the world and throughout history.

(05-04-2023, 08:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: People ware bullied online because they're transgender? I think people that add people on social media know if the person that added them is transgender.

Are you really doubting the bullying? Wow.

If you are able to, you should just read some of these: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=online+transgender+bullying&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

That just scratches the surface on what is out there about this topic. Trans people aren't committing suicide because society is opening their arms widely for them. They face discrimination, hate, and bullying from everywhere. The language you use on a regular basis is the same sort of language that has been shown to negatively impact the mental health of trans individuals and lead them to potential self-harm.

Tell me again about how accepted they are in society.

[GMDino]

(05-04-2023, 08:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You think it's not all about looks because some people want their body to "look" a certain way?

Ok, so people want to look more like a woman, which they are.

A transgender person wants to look like the opposite sex, which they're not.

An increase in people who identify as it.

Just a maybe? It's a lot more accepted.

People ware bullied online because they're transgender? I think people that add people on social media know if the person that added them is transgender.

To the bold, the study I shared earlier today said the number has changed that much.  

[BFritz21]

(05-04-2023, 08:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: What I am saying is that saying it is just about looks is more superficial than the reality of it.

If it was just about looks, then why would they need to have their penis removed or a vagina made?

(05-04-2023, 08:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: A trans person wants to outwardly express their gender in a way that matches how they see themself. Same as anyone else. 

So people load themselves with makeup because of how they feel inside?

People go to the gym to get buff because that's how they see themselves? 

Most people I know would have no problem being fat or out-of-shape if it were socially acceptable. 

(05-04-2023, 08:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Do you have facts to back up this claim?

Here's one from 2022.

[/url][url=https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2022/06/10/study-estimates-transgender-youth-population-has-doubled-in-5-years]This one, also from 2022, says the number of people that identify as transgender has doubled in the past five years from then.

(05-04-2023, 08:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Again, in our culture. Not in all cultures around the world and throughout history.

We're only talking about our culture.

(05-04-2023, 08:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Tell me again about how accepted they are in society.

I said more accepted because that's what we're talking about.

[*Nately120*]

(05-04-2023, 09:37 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Most people I know would have no problem being fat or out-of-shape if it were socially acceptable. 

This made me think about weight and bodies in a general sense.  Being in shape now is desirable because most people aren't, but back in the old days when being overweight was a sign of wealth people would buy false bums and bellies to look less like the emaciated peasants they were.  I think gout was even seen as a disease of the wonderfully opulent. 

And as far as being fat being acceptable goes, there is apparently a big ol' over the top and toxic and controversial "fat acceptance" thing going on in the pop culture world now.  Of course, they're way behind black women who seemed to just get together and agree decades ago that being thin was a pain in the ass, so they should all just agree being fat as hell was sexy and they stuck with it.

We could all learn a thing about working together from those sassy ones.

[samhain]

(05-04-2023, 09:51 PM)Nately120 Wrote: This made me think about weight and bodies in a general sense.  Being in shape now is desirable because most people aren't, but back in the old days when being overweight was a sign of wealth people would buy false bums and bellies to look less like the emaciated peasants they were.  I think gout was even seen as a disease of the wonderfully opulent. 

And as far as being fat being acceptable goes, there is apparently a big ol' over the top and toxic and controversial "fat acceptance" thing going on in the pop culture world now.  Of course, they're way behind black women who seemed to just get together and agree decades ago that being thin was a pain in the ass, so they should all just agree being fat as hell was sexy and they stuck with it.

We could all learn a thing about working together from those sassy ones.

I believe being overweight is often not as much of a choice as people assume.  People's bodies are all different.  I used to say that fat people were they last group in the US that you could make fun of and get away with it.  The stigma is significant and very much visual.  Still, it's an assumption to presume that all overweight people are fat because they are lazy or because they overeat.  Some conditions outside of mere lifestyle choice have a major impact.  Maybe we should be more conscious of that.

That said, being overweight is also very likely to cause major health consequences and potentially even death.  I really don't think it's something we should make a point to encourage.  Smoking is frowned upon because it's a choice that we all know kills.  People still do it, but we don't defend them as a protected class.

Maybe we should all just mind our own business.

[*Nately120*]

(05-04-2023, 10:02 PM)samhain Wrote: I believe being overweight is often not as much of a choice as people assume.  People's bodies are all different.  I used to say that fat people were they last group in the US that you could make fun of and get away with it.  The stigma is significant and very much visual.  Still, it's an assumption to presume that all overweight people are fat because they are lazy or because they overeat.  Some conditions outside of mere lifestyle choice have a major impact.  Maybe we should be more conscious of that.

That said, being overweight is also very likely to cause major health consequences and potentially even death.  I really don't think it's something we should make a point to encourage.  Smoking is frowned upon because it's a choice that we all know kills.  People still do it, but we don't defend them as a protected class.

Maybe we should all just mind our own business.

My weight is one thing I've never had an issue with, but I will say it is damn hard to stay thin in this country because everything is loaded with high fructose corn syrup and fat and even people who are very conscious about dietary stuff still fall prey to our totally warped view of portion sizes. Add in this:


Do you want companies to be restricted in how unhealthy they can make food that people eat?
AMERICANS - NO!
Ok, well do you want free healthcare?
AMERICANS - NO!


I was thinking too about how sensitive people are to weight gain in relation to other health concerns and issues.  Like, imagine the outrage if the water in Flint Michigan or that toxic train explosion in Ohio made everyone there put on 100lbs overnight rather than possibly get cancer in 10 years.

[samhain]

(05-04-2023, 09:51 PM)Nately120 Wrote: This made me think about weight and bodies in a general sense.  Being in shape now is desirable because most people aren't, but back in the old days when being overweight was a sign of wealth people would buy false bums and bellies to look less like the emaciated peasants they were.  I think gout was even seen as a disease of the wonderfully opulent. 

And as far as being fat being acceptable goes, there is apparently a big ol' over the top and toxic and controversial "fat acceptance" thing going on in the pop culture world now.  Of course, they're way behind black women who seemed to just get together and agree decades ago that being thin was a pain in the ass, so they should all just agree being fat as hell was sexy and they stuck with it.

We could all learn a thing about working together from those sassy ones.

I believe being overweight is often not as much of a choice as people assume.  People's bodies are all different.  I used to say that fat people were they last group in the US that you could make fun of and get away with it.  The stigma is significant and very much visual.  Still, it's an assumption to presume that all fat people are fat because they are lazy or because they overeat.  Some conditions outside of mere lifestyle choice have a major impact.  Maybe we should be more conscious of that.

That said, being overweight is also very likely to cause major health consequences and potentially even death.  I really don't think it's something we should make a point to encourage.  Smoking is frowned upon because it's a choice that we all know kills.  People still do it, but we don't defend them as a protected class.

Maybe we should all just mind our own business.

[HarleyDog]

(05-04-2023, 10:08 PM)samhain Wrote:  I used to say that fat people were they last group in the US that you could make fun of and get away with it.

Short people got no reason to live.

[*Nately120*]

(05-04-2023, 10:48 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Short people got no reason to live.

That reference is a whopping 46 years old.  

[*michaelsean*]

(05-04-2023, 06:48 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Every generation within a given culture or country is more progressive than the previous generation. I don't know why this is the case necessarily, but it is undeniable at this point.

Conservatism is, quite literally, fighting as hard as you can to stop "item A" from being accepted and then, when it is eventually too popular to fight anymore, moving on to the next thing, "item B" and fighting as hard as you can to stop that from being accepted.

Often times, this comes with re-writing history to pretend like you never were really THAT against "item A" being accepted, but that "item B" is just a bridge too far.

Repeat with item C, and item D and so on until the people who remember item A are dead and you can completely disavow your movement ever being opposed to it to begin with, but item E is definitely a bridge too far. 

That’s not conservatism. Conservatism is about stability. And you are acting like it’s the same people. I have a lot of conservative in me, and I don’t pretend I think women have the right to vote. I’m not the people who thought they didn’t. Just like you aren’t the liberal of the early twentieth century who thought women had the right to vote but likely thought being gay was a sin. Or opposed abortion or thought black people were second class citizens.

[Dill]

(05-04-2023, 06:48 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Every generation within a given culture or country is more progressive than the previous generation. I don't know why this is the case necessarily, but it is undeniable at this point.

Just as a historical sidebar, this is not really true. Especially if you are using current (liberal) definitions of "progressive."

E.g., in 20th century Europe, Fascist regimes worked deliberately to oppose progressive gender and race politics, pushed women
out of the professions and back into the home, etc.

I'm not sure how the term "progressive" would apply to the ancient Mediterranean world at any point--maybe Athens between 600 and 340 BCE? Rome for the first 250 years of the Republic? If we follow the Old Testament prophets, each seems to think his generation is less godly than the previous--maybe "less godly" is what we'd call "progressive"?  

Looking at Asian civilizations, there are periods we Westerners approve of--Asoka's reign in India, Baghdad under the Abbasids--but whatever
we thought "progressive" about them wasn't carried forward by succeeding generations.  

Anyway, I think you are on to something in the sense that, in the U.S. there has always been a dialectical movement from liberal to conservative and back again, but as decades and centuries pass it seems "progressive" values increasingly win out and become permanent. Conservatives eventually identify with them too. What conservatives previously opposed become what conservatives have always supported. 50 years from now I would not be surprised if conservatives were arguing that conservatism always supported trans surgery because it always supported "choice" and "freedom." 

[*Nately120*]

(05-04-2023, 10:55 PM)michaelsean Wrote: That’s not conservatism. Conservatism is about stability.  And you are acting like it’s the same people. I have a lot of conservative in me, and I don’t pretend I think women have the right to vote. I’m not the people who thought they didn’t. Just like you aren’t the liberal of the early  twentieth century who thought women had the right to vote but likely thought being gay was a sin.  Or opposed abortion or thought black people were second class citizens.

Fair point, but to me the thing that carries on is the reasons conservatives (in the social if not political sense) give for loving freedom but needing to curtail specific freedoms.  The Women's suffrage movement applies in the sense that the people who argued against it were saying that liberating women would hurt children, delegitimize and disincentivize the traditional family unit, and lead to men becoming less masculine.  So while arguing that women shouldn't have the right to vote is archaic, the warnings that progress will harm kids, families and society, and muddy the traditional lines and roles between men and women have never gone out of style.

We hear the same arguments for every new development.  That's where things go right back to the days of the dodo, for me.

[*michaelsean*]

(05-04-2023, 11:11 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Fair point, but to me the thing that carries on is the reasons conservatives (in the social if not political sense) give for loving freedom but needing to curtail specific freedoms.  The Women's suffrage movement applies in the sense that the people who argued against it were saying that liberating women would hurt children, delegitimize and disincentivize the traditional family unit, and lead to men becoming less masculine.  So while arguing that women shouldn't have the right to vote is archaic, the warnings that progress will harm kids, families and society, and muddy the traditional lines and roles between men and women have never gone out of style.

We hear the same arguments for every new development.  That's where things go right back to the days of the dodo, for me.

Yes and the people, or most of them, who argued women have a right to vote would have argued being gay harms children families and society. I’m just saying you have to make comparisons on a level field

[Dill]

(05-04-2023, 06:48 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Conservatism is, quite literally, fighting as hard as you can to stop "item A" from being accepted and then, when it is eventually too popular to fight anymore, moving on to the next thing, "item B" and fighting as hard as you can to stop that from being accepted.

Often times, this comes with re-writing history to pretend like you never were really THAT against "item A" being accepted, but that "item B" is just a bridge too far.

Repeat with item C, and item D and so on until the people who remember item A are dead and you can completely disavow your movement ever being opposed to it to begin with, but item E is definitely a bridge too far. 

Yes, in practice that is what conservatism does. 

Although it should be said that this shift from opposing A to embracing it rarely occurs in individuals.

Rather it occurs between generations. Conservatives in the 50s hated rock music. It's a staple on Fox now as theme music.
Except for Ann Coulter, most conservatives nowadays think women should be allowed to vote.

This paradox, or contradiction, has been explicitly recognized in political philosophy since the early 50s.