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(06-03-2023, 06:11 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Furthering scientific knowledge in the field of medicine sounds like socialist nonsense #gopthinking
To be fair, I can understand people having ethical questions about this stuff. It isn't very black and white.
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(06-03-2023, 05:47 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Actually, it is medicine and science. There are no other ways to test these things. Now, we can do everything possible to mitigate risks such as making sure there are strict requirements for starting puberty blockers, let alone HRT or surgery.
Of course there are. Such experiments can be conducted on subjects that are not human, this is done all the time. As for strict requirements, there seem to be lots of stories about requirements being, shall we say, not quite so strict.
https://nypost.com/2022/06/18/detransitioned-teens-explain-why-they-regret-changing-genders/
You can dismiss the NY Post as being an obviously partisan source, which would be fair. But the story contains direct quotes that contradict your position.
Quote:I started a medication at the age of three for allergies. I was on that medication for roughly 10 years. One of the side effects that was unknown at the time was weight gain. When you look at pictures of me before I started that medication and in the first year, normal weight. I steadily gained weight throughout my childhood despite being a very active kid. Played baseball, did wrestling, was always outside, etc. I couldn't play football until high school because of weight limits, unfortunately. Anyway, that drug was taken off the market in 1999 for several reasons, but not before that damage was done. Something my parents were never told about.
I was diagnosed ADHD (ADD then) in 1980 and was prescribed Ritalin so in that regard we are similar. Although Ritalin appears to have been more thoroughly tested then what you took. All the same, you seem to making my case for me here. The medical profession failed both you and your parents (as it does many annually with well over a hundred thousands deaths a year from medical malpractice). If your parents had been correctly informed do you think they would have allowed your prescription?
Quote:This isn't the only story like that. We, society that is, put drugs out all the time without knowing everything they will do. It's a regular part of how we do business around the world. We work to mitigate risks and we compensate for issues when we can, but that is absolutely how we further scientific knowledge in the field of medicine.
Past practice is a poor justification for continued practice.
(06-03-2023, 06:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: To be fair, I can understand people having ethical questions about this stuff. It isn't very black and white.
Don't dissuade him. Take away snark and he doesn't appear to have much left to contribute.
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(06-03-2023, 06:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Of course there are. Such experiments can be conducted on subjects that are not human, this is done all the time. As for strict requirements, there seem to be lots of stories about requirements being, shall we say, not quite so strict.
https://nypost.com/2022/06/18/detransitioned-teens-explain-why-they-regret-changing-genders/
You can dismiss the NY Post as being an obviously partisan source, which would be fair. But the story contains direct quotes that contradict your position.
All of these drugs are tested on animals long before they make it to human trials. That is the process.
As for the story, I don't need to click it to know the situation. This is why I am in favor of stronger regulations. I am always in favor of better policies to insure our people are well informed in their decision making. Bans enacted by politicians that run counter to medical knowledge are counterproductive, though. Expertise should be valued.
(06-03-2023, 06:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I was diagnosed ADHD (ADD then) in 1980 and was prescribed Ritalin so in that regard we are similar. Although Ritalin appears to have been more thoroughly tested then what you took. All the same, you seem to making my case for me here. The medical profession failed both you and your parents (as it does many annually with well over a hundred thousands deaths a year from medical malpractice). If your parents had been correctly informed do you think they would have allowed your prescription?
Probably not. But I am 100% in favor of patients being well informed. But that is different than what we see happening.
(06-03-2023, 06:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Past practice is a poor justification for continued practice.
There is no 100% analog for human study, though. We can use pigs to study some things, horses other, mice and rats are great analogs for a lot of things. The problem is that none of them are one-to-one comparisons. They also cannot provide first-person perspective feedback.
We will always have to use knowledge gained from human testing on these things. And we will never know how it effects children without actually testing it on children. Informed consent is the key in these situations, but we will always have to rely on testing like this.
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"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
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(06-03-2023, 06:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Past practice is a poor justification for continued practice.
Cool so let's do away with qualified immunity.
Quote:Don't dissuade him. Take away snark and he doesn't appear to have much left to contribute.
Oh I've got plenty. But rieling up the rubes is so much funner for me.
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(06-03-2023, 06:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: To be fair, I can understand people having ethical questions about this stuff. It isn't very black and white.
Yeah well people had ethical questions about performing actual surgery instead of bloodletting, too. Sometimes you have to ignore people's hang ups if you want to advance society.
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(06-03-2023, 10:59 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Cool so let's do away with qualified immunity.
Cool, make an argument for doing so.
Quote:Oh I've got plenty. But rieling up the rubes is so much funner for me.
Cool, let me know when you're going to start.
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(06-03-2023, 11:01 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Yeah well people had ethical questions about performing actual surgery instead of bloodletting, too. Sometimes you have to ignore people's hang ups if you want to advance society.
Excellent, analogy, that'll really rile up the rubes.
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(06-04-2023, 12:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Cool, make an argument for doing so.
Past practice is a poor justification for continued practice.
Quote:Cool, let me know when you're going to start.
Oh I would, but I don't have a vested interest in other people's lives and thus the Trans movement doesn't bother me, nor does them having their children go through any sort of Trans affirming surgery or treatment. And I don't care if people say they're disabled or not; I'm not a doctor and can't confirm or deny their claims.
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(06-04-2023, 12:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Excellent, analogy, that'll really rile up the rubes.
Apparently.
Our father, who art in Hell
Unhallowed, be thy name
Cursed be thy sons and daughters
Of our nemesis who are to blame
Thy kingdom come, Nema
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(06-04-2023, 01:31 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Past practice is a poor justification for continued practice.
Trying to be clever doesn't seem to work for you. If I had made an argument for qualified immunity to continue as it's the way things have always been done then your attempt at being clever would have succeeded. I didn't, so it didn't.
Quote:Oh I would, but I don't have a vested interest in other people's lives and thus the Trans movement doesn't bother me, nor does them having their children go through any sort of Trans affirming surgery or treatment. And I don't care if people say they're disabled or not; I'm not a doctor and can't confirm or deny their claims.
Cool, you don't care about the topic of the thread. That would explain your posting in it.
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(06-04-2023, 03:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Trying to be clever doesn't seem to work for you. If I had made an argument for qualified immunity to continue as it's the way things have always been done then your attempt at being clever would have succeeded. I didn't, so it didn't.
That's a lot of words for 'no not like that'.
Quote:Cool, you don't care about the topic of the thread. That would explain your posting in it.
Correct, ish. I can not care and still play Devil's Advocate.
You're against medical procedures on children that are irreversible, no? Even if that's what the child wants (or at least believes that's what they want). So you're also against circumcision? And what are your thoughts on genetic manipulation in the womb? Also, being upset about transsexuals is hilarious given that every male human - by nature - is transsexual.
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(06-04-2023, 04:01 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: That's a lot of words for 'no not like that'.
I wish you were better at this, it would make these exchanges a bit more bearable.
Quote:Correct, ish. I can not care and still play Devil's Advocate.
You're against medical procedures on children that are irreversible, no? Even if that's what the child wants (or at least believes that's what they want). So you're also against circumcision?
Ahh, you finally make a good point. Yes, a comparison could definitely be made to circumcision. Although you hear conflicting medical opinions on its benefits, or lack thereof, an argument could be made that it is in the same vein, an irreversible medical procedure. Is it on par with a double mastectomy or the inversion of a penis? I would say they're not even close, much as male circumcision is not nearly as severe a procedure as female circumcision.
Quote:And what are your thoughts on genetic manipulation in the womb?
I think it's going to be inevitable. I would be in favor of it in regard to eliminating genetic diseases and defects, but against it in terms of making designer babies.
Quote:Also, being upset about transsexuals is hilarious given that every male human - by nature - is transsexual.
I'm not upset by them, nor have I given any indication that I am. Kindly keep baseless accusations out of the conversation. But no, biological males are not transsexual by definition. Just because certain tissues form into different shapes (clitoris and penis for example) does not make men transsexual. Feel free to expound on this point though.
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(06-04-2023, 06:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I wish you were better at this, it would make these exchanges a bit more bearable.
Pot, meet kettle.
Quote:Ahh, you finally make a good point. Yes, a comparison could definitely be made to circumcision. Although you hear conflicting medical opinions on its benefits, or lack thereof, an argument could be made that it is in the same vein, an irreversible medical procedure. Is it on par with a double mastectomy or the inversion of a penis? I would say they're not even close, much as male circumcision is not nearly as severe a procedure as female circumcision.
So you're only anti-trans because...reasons. Got it.
Quote:I think it's going to be inevitable. I would be in favor of it in regard to eliminating genetic diseases and defects, but against it in terms of making designer babies.
Yet at the end of the day, it's not really your business what people do to their child is it? People are entitled to get what they want and as long as they get it without harming anyone else (and no, a fetus is not a person), it shouldn't matter to anyone but the mother. She's the one putting in the work.
Quote:I'm not upset by them, nor have I given any indication that I am. Kindly keep baseless accusations out of the conversation. But no, biological males are not transsexual by definition. Just because certain tissues form into different shapes (clitoris and penis for example) does not make men transsexual. Feel free to expound on this point though.
Right not transsexual; that's why males have nipples. Every fetus begins as a female - that's simple scientific fact. You have a penis, you trsns.
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(06-04-2023, 06:45 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Pot, meet kettle.
Yeah, like I said, boring.
Quote:So you're only anti-trans because...reasons. Got it.
This is the second time you've made this accusation with nothing to justify it. This isn't trolling, it's boring.
Quote:Yet at the end of the day, it's not really your business what people do to their child is it? People are entitled to get what they want and as long as they get it without harming anyone else (and no, a fetus is not a person), it shouldn't matter to anyone but the mother. She's the one putting in the work.
The child's father has no say in this? As for is it my business? On a personal level, no. If the government feels the need to intervene to prevent harm though it becomes everyone's business in the sense that we elect our governments. I didn't know I'd have to teach you basic civics.
Quote:Right not transsexual; that's why males have nipples. Every fetus begins as a female - that's simple scientific fact. You have a penis, you trsns.
Ahahaha, bless your heart. Not knowing basic biology and basic civics. This thread has not been kind to you. 
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(06-04-2023, 09:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yeah, like I said, boring.
I can only imagine what gets you going.
Quote:This is the second time you've made this accusation with nothing to justify it. This isn't trolling, it's boring.
I mean you're the one typing what you type. If you want me to go back and quote you a bunch, you've got the wrong guy.
Quote:The child's father has no say in this? As for is it my business? On a personal level, no. If the government feels the need to intervene to prevent harm though it becomes everyone's business in the sense that we elect our governments. I didn't know I'd have to teach you basic civics.
No, he don't. Not until he starts sharing incubation responsibility.
I'm not the one who constantly sings the song of government intervention on the matter. It's not the government's business, it's not my business, it's not your business.
Quote:Ahahaha, bless your heart. Not knowing basic biology and basic civics. This thread has not been kind to you.
Oh I forgot - you can't be wrong. It might ACTUALLY cause you harm to admit you don't know something.
If this thread hasn't been kind to me, life must just be awful for you. Explains a lot, actually.
I'll save you the time of typing your next response and mine since I'm gonna be off here for a week or so.
You: boring and uninspired. Blah blah blah. Backhanded comments. Victim complex response.
Me: don't care enough to argue.
You: rinse and repeat.
Have a great week!
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(06-04-2023, 09:33 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Me: don't care enough to argue.
![[Image: 200w.gif]](https://media3.giphy.com/media/Q7ozWVYCR0nyW2rvPW/200w.gif)
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Rather germane to the topic at hand, Finland joins Norway and Sweden (three notoriously far right countries) in voicing concerns on this subject. I do apologize for using the far right site, The Atlantic, as my source.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-debate-europe-dutch-protocol/673890/
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(06-06-2023, 11:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Rather germane to the topic at hand, Finland joins Norway and Sweden (three notoriously far right countries) in voicing concerns on this subject. I do apologize for using the far right site, The Atlantic, as my source.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-debate-europe-dutch-protocol/673890/
It's definitely an interesting discussion and, in my opinion, definitely a good conversation to have. If the research undergirding the Dutch protocol has questionable validity then more research is needed. It sounds like a lot of places accepted the protocol without as much replication but also a lot has changed in the past decade for sure.
I'm an assessment guy, which means that I am looking to constantly evaluate programs and look for evidence of their effectiveness and look for improvements which means I am ok with this. More studies are good. I am curious to see if there is emerging evidence on the reversibility of puberty blockers, as evidence in that regard would be the biggest impact on my knowledge of the issue. My issues still exist with some of the laws being passed that are criminalizing gender-affirming psychological care as well as things like prohibiting PAs from providing gender-affirming care which is impacting trans adults (this was done in Florida and one news report I heard stated that around 80% of trans adults in Florida were receiving their gender-affirming care from PAs).
What this sounds like to me is that there was potentially a jumping-of-the-gun on the Dutch protocol which is being used to justify generally anti-trans legislation.
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(06-06-2023, 11:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Rather germane to the topic at hand, Finland joins Norway and Sweden (three notoriously far right countries) in voicing concerns on this subject. I do apologize for using the far right site, The Atlantic, as my source.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-debate-europe-dutch-protocol/673890/
Far right? Lol
The Atlantic leans left but definitely is left.
For my sanity I checked five or so political bias sites and they all got the Atlantic left…not that it matters
-The only bengals fan that has never set foot in Cincinnati 1-15-22
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(06-08-2023, 08:18 PM)basballguy Wrote: Far right? Lol
The Atlantic leans left but definitely is left.
For my sanity I checked five or so political bias sites and they all got the Atlantic left…not that it matters
I am going to guess he is aware of that and is being sarcastic. At least, that is what I got from it, given the bit about Finland and Norway being far right countries. Lol.
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