The big problem is not Trump. It is "Trumpism"

[fredtoast]

Too many democrats think that if they can just get rid of Trump then everything will get better, but I see Trump more as the result of a new problem instead of the cause of the new problem.

Right-wing populism and nationalism I growing in America. Getting rid of Trump will not change the fact that more and more people are anti-immigration and more concerned about preserving "western culture" and the "American way".

I don't think they have the grounds to impeach him, but even if they did a new "Trump-type" candidate would arise in the next election.

Here is a synopsis of Fareed Zakaria's opening monologue from "Global Public Square" Sunday (4-28-19). I think he nailed it.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/04/28/cnns_fareed_zakaria_impeachment_would_only_increase_the_class_resentment_that_feeds_support_for_trump.html


FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN: Consider for a moment what the growing talk of impeachment among Democrats sounds like to the tens of millions of people who voted for Donald Trump. Many of them supported him because they feel ignored, mocked, and condescended to by the country's urban, educated, and cosmopolitan elite -- especially lawyers and journalists

So what happens when their guy gets elected? These same elites pursue a series of maneuvers to try to overturn the results of the 2016 election. it would massively increase the class resentment that feeds support for Trump. It would turn the topic away from his misdeeds and towards the Democrats' overreach and obsession. And ultimately, of course, it would fail. Two-thirds of this Republican-controlled Senate would not vote to convict Donald Trump. Allowing the president to brandish his acquittal like a gold medal across the country.

The Democrats have a much better path in front of them. They should pursue legitimate investigations of Trump, bring in witnesses, and release documentary proof of wrongdoing. But they should at the same time show the public that they would be a refreshing contrast to Trump - substantive, policy-oriented, civil and focused on the country, not on their base. America is tired of the circus of Donald Trump. That doesn’t mean they want the circus of the House Democrats.

Trump is vulnerable. With strong economic numbers, he has astonishingly low approval ratings. He will likely run his 2020 campaign on cultural nationalism, as he did the last one. Democrats need to decide what their vision will be. That should be their focus for the next two years, not the unfounded hope that if they pursue impeachment, somehow a series of miracles will take place - a deeply divided country will coalesce around them and Republicans will finally abandon their president.

The real challenge the Democrats face goes beyond Trump. It is Trumpism - a right-wing populism that has swelled in the United States over the past decade. Surely the best way to take it on is to combat it ideologically and defeat it electorally. That is the only way to give the Democrats the real prize, which is not Donald Trump’s scalp but the power and legitimacy to forge a governing majority.

[SunsetBengal]

Trumpism??

I mean, Liberals aren't the problem, Liberalism is..

[*bfine32*]

I guess a "big problem" is in the eye of the beholder. What is the "Big Problem"?

Many on the Left balk when you suggest they are in favor of illegal immigration, but will quickly say the Right is anti-immigration.

[CJD]

I think both sides have people who believe they are ignored or disregarded. Just for different reasons. Leftist "extremists" feel like the government does not properly regulate industries that abuse their customers along with the rampant growth in cost of things that are becoming more and more required to make a living in today's world (like education) or to just live in general (health care and medical expenses like medicine) without wages increasing proportionately.

I was just talking to my dad this past weekend and he couldn't believe I was "just okay" with the fact that, now that my wife and I are trying to have children, that we're okay with the cost being about 8,000 dollars (due to a $3,000 dollar deductible and 20% copay afterward). When I asked him how much he paid to have me and my brother he said...0 dollars.

Medical costs in this country have gone out of control.

I'm not fond of Trump's obsession with immigration and nationalism, and that ideology's association with racism is definitely concerning. But he did not invent racism and I have my doubts that his ideology is creating racists out of people who aren't already racist. It's really painful that white supremacists are being given the platform that they have right now, but this has been creeping up ever since 9/11. And ISIS has only exacerbated it (with ISIS being created, in part, due to America's interference in the middle east). As far as the racism stuff goes, Trump was more the spark that ignited the oil spill rather than the thing that caused the oil spill in the first place. I truly believe that once the incendiary speeches and attention to White supremacy that Trump specifically provides, a lot of this will subside. At least back to where it resided before Trump.

I am more concerned with his obsession that using tax dollars to actually assist the country's citizens is "socialism." It's 1960s propaganda that is allowing big money corporations and industries to bend citizens over a barrel without any regulations to stop or hinder them. And that's the thing that I think will have a lasting impact from this presidency.

I may be being optimistic but I believe the nationalism and racism is the fringe of the Republican party. The fear mongering about "Socialism" is more of a universal belief among Republicans and that will be the longer lasting legacy of this presidency and I'm not sure we can fix it before we start to see the gap between the 1% and the 99% widen even further than it already is.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-29-2019, 09:53 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think both sides have people who believe they are ignored or disregarded. Just for different reasons. Leftist "extremists" feel like the government does not properly regulate industries that abuse their customers along with the rampant growth in cost of things that are becoming more and more required to make a living in today's world (like education) or to just live in general (health care and medical expenses like medicine) without wages increasing proportionately.

I was just talking to my dad this past weekend and he couldn't believe I was "just okay" with the fact that, now that my wife and I are trying to have children, that we're okay with the cost being about 8,000 dollars (due to a $3,000 dollar deductible and 20% copay afterward). When I asked him how much he paid to have me and my brother he said...0 dollars.

Medical costs in this country have gone out of control.

I'm not fond of Trump's obsession with immigration and nationalism, and that ideology's association with racism is definitely concerning. But he did not invent racism and I have my doubts that his ideology is creating racists out of people who aren't already racist. It's really painful that white supremacists are being given the platform that they have right now, but this has been creeping up ever since 9/11. And ISIS has only exacerbated it (with ISIS being created, in part, due to America's interference in the middle east). As far as the racism stuff goes, Trump was more the spark that ignited the oil spill rather than the thing that caused the oil spill in the first place. I truly believe that once the incendiary speeches and attention to White supremacy that Trump specifically provides, a lot of this will subside. At least back to where it resided before Trump.

I am more concerned with his obsession that using tax dollars to actually assist the country's citizens is "socialism." It's 1960s propaganda that is allowing big money corporations and industries to bend citizens over a barrel without any regulations to stop or hinder them. And that's the thing that I think will have a lasting impact from this presidency.

I may be being optimistic but I believe the nationalism and racism is the fringe of the Republican party. The fear mongering about "Socialism" is more of a universal belief among Republicans and that will be the longer lasting legacy of this presidency and I'm not sure we can fix it before we start to see the gap between the 1% and the 99% widen even further than it already is.

I think the socialism thing is just thrown out there to annoy by a lot of people. Obviously some people don’t understand it. But then we get the converse when liberals tell us we are secretly in favor of socialism because of police department fire department etc. Not only are they incorrect, but it appears that they support socialism by trying to defend it. But all in all I think for the most part the accusations of socialism/fascism are meant to annoy. I now eagerly await Dill explaining why the fascism accusations are real.

[Dill]

(04-29-2019, 10:03 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I think the socialism thing is just thrown out there to annoy by a lot of people.  Obviously some people don’t understand it. But then we get the converse when liberals tell us we are secretly in favor of socialism because of police department fire department etc. Not only are they incorrect, but it appears that they support socialism by trying to defend it. But all in all I think for the most part the accusations of socialism/fascism are meant to annoy. I now eagerly await Dill explaining why the fascism accusations are real.

Dill could probably explain why Trump and his supporters embrace authoritarian politics, based upon 1) commonly understood (among social scientists and historians) definitions of authoritarianism and 2) the behavior of Trump and followers. I.e., "real" behavior, which no one disagrees occurred/occurs.  And could probably fend of most varieties of false equivalence and bothsidesism while doing so.

[Dill]

(04-29-2019, 09:53 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote:
I may be being optimistic but I believe the nationalism and racism is the fringe of the Republican party. The fear mongering about "Socialism" is more of a universal belief among Republicans and that will be the longer lasting legacy of this presidency and I'm not sure we can fix it before we start to see the gap between the 1% and the 99% widen even further than it already is.

A question I have, then, is to what degree do you see nationalism and racism expressed in Trump's speeches, tweets and policies?

Perhaps they can be separated from tax cuts and attempts to destroy the ACA, but are they only on the (metaphorically speaking) fringes of the wall and the Muslim ban, MAGA, and "America First"?

How do you explain the overwhelming support for Trump among Republicans, despite his inability to condemn white nationalism and his easy, disparaging references to populations of the Global South?

I doubt anyone thinks Trump invented racism or charges of socialism. His gift has always been for sensing anger against people of color, linked to a liberal big government supposed to dole out favors based on race and gender. That linkage of race to big government began right after the Civil War and has more recently, and creatively, been stoked by right wing media. But Trump's special success has derived from his contempt for social norms which, since the 1960s, have turned politicians away from rhetoric negatively stereotyping race and religion.  While Trump opponents see only constant deceit and lying in his public performances, his supporters see refreshing sincerity and authenticity when he speaks of Mexican rapists and "shithole countries."  As the Zakaria excerpt above suggests, most people looking at Trumpism as a sociological phenomenon read Trump as symptom rather than cause, but his effect has been to unify all these darker strains in U.S. history and policy into an angry mass movement very likely to outlast him.

[CJD]

(04-29-2019, 11:30 PM)Dill Wrote: A question I have, then, is to what degree do you see nationalism and racism expressed in Trump's speeches, tweets and policies?

Perhaps they can be separated from tax cuts and attempts to destroy the ACA, but are they only on the (metaphorically speaking) fringes of the wall and the Muslim ban, MAGA, and "America First"?

How do you explain the overwhelming support for Trump among Republicans, despite his inability to condemn white nationalism and his easy, disparaging references to populations of the Global South?

I doubt anyone thinks Trump invented racism or charges of socialism. His gift has always been for sensing anger against people of color, linked to a liberal big government supposed to dole out favors based on race and gender. That linkage of race to big government began right after the Civil War and has more recently, and creatively, been stoked by right wing media. But Trump's special success has derived from his contempt for social norms which, since the 1960s, have turned politicians away from rhetoric negatively stereotyping race and religion.  While Trump opponents see only constant deceit and lying in his public performances, his supporters see refreshing sincerity and authenticity when he speaks of Mexican rapists and "shithole countries."  As the Zakaria excerpt above suggests, most people looking at Trumpism as a sociological phenomenon read Trump as symptom rather than cause, but his effect has been to unify all these darker strains in U.S. history and policy into an angry mass movement very likely to outlast him.

I guess the biggest reason is I know Republicans. And I am related to Republicans. And if I allowed myself to believe that they were all racist...man. That'd be a dark moment in my life.

[Benton]

(04-29-2019, 07:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I guess a "big problem" is in the eye of the beholder. What is the "Big Problem"?

Electing a leader because he's the populist candidate who espouses ideas traditionally opposite and detrimental to a democracy (tossing out of checks and balances, ordering aides to be in contempt of Congress, cronyism of a pay-to-play government, etc.). Out of control spending defended only as 'good for the nation.' Policies based more on election victories than any reality (climate change, immigration, etc.). Furthering the 'us' versus 'them' belief. There's more, but populism is popular. I don't think anyone who doesn't realize that nationalism is a problem will realize why nationalism is problem.

[*bfine32*]

(04-29-2019, 11:39 PM)Benton Wrote: Electing a leader because he's the populist candidate who espouses ideas traditionally opposite and detrimental to a democracy (tossing out of checks and balances, ordering aides to be in contempt of Congress, cronyism of a pay-to-play government, etc.). Out of control spending defended only as 'good for the nation.' Policies based more on election victories than any reality (climate change, immigration, etc.). Furthering the 'us' versus 'them' belief. There's more, but populism is popular. I don't think anyone who doesn't realize that nationalism is a problem will realize why nationalism is problem.

"Tossing out checks and balances" "Out of control spending".... Perhaps we have discovered the real big problem. 

But I do agree with your "us versus them" belief. 

[Dill]

(04-29-2019, 11:32 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I guess the biggest reason is I know Republicans. And I am related to Republicans. And if I allowed myself to believe that they were all racist...man. That'd be a dark moment in my life.

I know a couple myself.  The charge is not that ALL are racist. Every person should be considered on a case-by-case basis.

Some publicly protest and criticize Trump's behavior, but will still vote for the tax cuts and SCOTUS picks. Or consider the vote against Hillary more important. It's a matter of priorities. But the result is that support/defense of Trump can't go forward without some degree of accommodation to Trump's nationalism and racism. Sometimes this accommodation leads to denial that Trump is racist , and of the national/international consequences of having a national leader like that. Until he publicly, unequivocally, and repeatedly condemns white nationalism, his election and behavior are hope and inspiration to white nationalists, who see in his election a step towards normalizing their views and certainly their policy goals.

When assessing the current Republican party, we have to recognize also that while some find the accommodation difficult and soul searching, many do not.

[CJD]

(04-30-2019, 12:16 AM)Dill Wrote: I know a couple myself.  The charge is not that ALL are racist. Every person should be considered on a case-by-case basis.

Some publicly protest and criticize Trump's behavior, but will still vote for the tax cuts and SCOTUS picks. Or consider the vote against Hillary more important. It's a matter of priorities. But the result is that support/defense of Trump can't go forward without some degree of accommodation to Trump's nationalism and racism. Sometimes this accommodation leads to denial that Trump is racist , and of the national/international consequences of having a national leader like that. Until he publicly, unequivocally, and repeatedly condemns white nationalism, his election and behavior are hope and inspiration to white nationalists, who see in his election a step towards normalizing their views and certainly their policy goals.

When assessing the current Republican party, we have to recognize also that while some find the accommodation difficult and soul searching, many do not.

Well, of the Republicans I know, all of them say to me that they voted for Trump but with a bad taste in their mouth (anti-Hillary mostly, but a few anti-abortion people). Many who refer to him as a King Cyrus, whatever that means (I know what it means, I just think it's stupid). So I can't really gauge how many Republicans actually endorse his nationalism and racism and how many merely tolerate it.

I think the Republican party has become very skilled at desensitizing their voters to racism, such that they either don't believe in it (the idea that privilege is a myth, for example) or they actually believe the democrats are the racist party ("The southern strategy and party switch in the 60s is a myth" or "Discussing identity politics is inherently racist."). So I dunno. I understand the fear of nationalism that is breeding in the Republicna party, but from every Republican I've ever interacted with, it always seems to be about religion, hatred for Hillary specifically (and occasionally Obama) and, of course, good old fashioned money. I've not heard too many Republicans talk about how great the Wall is. I only really see that attitude on the internet.

That may, of course, be one of those situations where they say one thing and think another, but I can't really judge that. My perception has always been that it is closer to 80-20 in terms of tolerating Trump's shit vs endorsing it. And that 20% is purely from what I see online.

[*bfine32*]

(04-30-2019, 12:16 AM)Dill Wrote: I know a couple myself.  The charge is not that ALL are racist. Every person should be considered on a case-by-case basis.

Some publicly protest and criticize Trump's behavior, but will still vote for the tax cuts and SCOTUS picks. Or consider the vote against Hillary more important. It's a matter of priorities. But the result is that support/defense of Trump can't go forward without some degree of accommodation to Trump's nationalism and racism. Sometimes this accommodation leads to denial that Trump is racist , and of the national/international consequences of having a national leader like that. Until he publicly, unequivocally, and repeatedly condemns white nationalism, his election and behavior are hope and inspiration to white nationalists, who see in his election a step towards normalizing their views and certainly their policy goals.

When assessing the current Republican party, we have to recognize also that while some find the accommodation difficult and soul searching, many do not.

The issue is that at the end of the day there were 2 viable candidates. It's too easy to sit on a pedestal and associate those that voted for one with everything that is wrong with that candidate, while ignoring the warts on the other. The truth is the vast majority that voted for Trump are no "worse" than those that did not. It's just the Left have to make themselves feel more enlightened. 

[Benton]

(04-29-2019, 11:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But I do agree with your "us versus them" belief. 

Nationalism preys on that. 

"I'd rather be Russian than a Democrat!" 

"They're [insert whatever they isn't like the group] taking our [insert whatever people want: jobs, higher wages, benefits]."

"We're not safe as long as the other side keeps supporting [insert whatever people are afraid of]."

[JustWinBaby]

I remember when Democrats lost election after election with populism.....then Trump came along and figured out how to win with it, and suddenly he's ruining America.

And the Dems aren't pumping viagra into populism because they think it's good for the country....they're doing it because they think it will get them elected.

[Belsnickel]

(04-30-2019, 04:38 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: And the Dems aren't pumping viagra into populism because they think it's good for the country....they're doing it because they think it will get them elected.

Considering populism is antithetical to what has been the Republican ideology for decades, I believe this charge would fit both parties.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-29-2019, 11:00 PM)Dill Wrote: Dill could probably explain why Trump and his supporters embrace authoritarian politics, based upon 1) commonly understood (among social scientists and historians) definitions of authoritarianism and 2) the behavior of Trump and followers. I.e., "real" behavior, which no one disagrees occurred/occurs.  And could probably fend of most varieties of false equivalence and bothsidesism while doing so.

No need.  I haven't been around much lately and just wanted to make sure nothing has changed too much.

[BmorePat87]

Sure, he's just the right person to come with the message that has been there for many, but in terms of a electoral strategy, swing voters are going to be more concerned with helping themselves. Democrats don't need to worry about finding ways to counter policies that border on racism, they just need to focus on medicare, social security, taxes, and jobs. "Have Trump and the Republicans policies actually helped you?"

[*michaelsean*]

Has anyone said, "There are good Republicans and bad Republicans" yet?

[Vas Deferens]

The INTENDED consequence of massive cuts to our nations education system over the past generation:

Uneducated Anti-Intellectuals. Pepper in some inbreeding, social media and perceived constitutional rights... more than one of them Henry boys gonna stick their dick in the mashed potatoes.

Forced sterilization from birth. Only reversible when ones responsibility is established. That way all these toothless fatties can diddle each other all they want without the rest of society having to pick up after them.