The consequences of jail over treatment

[Belsnickel]

So, I just had a story come across my Twitter feed that is pretty local to me, and I found heartbreaking. A man, about my age, was found on the floor after having OD'ed. This is an all too common story these days in the opiate epidemic. Where this story gets rough is that because our current criminal justice system focuses more on imprisonment than helping those with drug issues, he was sentenced to serve 9 months in prison. 9 months in prison for endangering himself.

Now, this story doesn't get into his past too much, and so I don't know if he had any criminal history. Regardless of that, he was sent to prison for this crime of drug possession. He went to prison, and less than two months later he is dead because of prison violence.

Now, a couple of things resonate for me on this. First, I don't believe he should have been in jail at all. I don't see any reason for drugs to be criminalized as they are, but even if they are there should only be probation and possible treatment if that is the only charge against you.

Second, because we are locking up all of these people for offenses like this, it results in overcrowded prisons like what we are seeing here. Overcrowded prisons are a strain on the inmates, on the staff, and on budgets.

Lastly, putting drug abusers in prison when they have not committed other crimes and introducing them to this environment can not only be dangerous, as evidenced by this story, but if they make it out alive it is probable they will come out more likely to commit crimes against others. This is something that research has shown in a number of studies.

Just some thoughts I had in wanting to share this story with you all.

http://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/culpeper-man-dies-after-beating-at-piedmont-regional-jail/article_9ff1d8e4-d279-5a45-9972-029f12b36b9a.html

[Millhouse]

He was originally sentenced to 10 years in prison, but reduced to 9 months.

The whole system is just out of whack. Or the judge is in cahoots with the prison system on getting kickbacks for filling up their cells.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-31-2017, 10:54 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, I just had a story come across my Twitter feed that is pretty local to me, and I found heartbreaking. A man, about my age, was found on the floor after having OD'ed. This is an all too common story these days in the opiate epidemic. Where this story gets rough is that because our current criminal justice system focuses more on imprisonment than helping those with drug issues, he was sentenced to serve 9 months in prison. 9 months in prison for endangering himself.

Now, this story doesn't get into his past too much, and so I don't know if he had any criminal history. Regardless of that, he was sent to prison for this crime of drug possession. He went to prison, and less than two months later he is dead because of prison violence.

Now, a couple of things resonate for me on this. First, I don't believe he should have been in jail at all. I don't see any reason for drugs to be criminalized as they are, but even if they are there should only be probation and possible treatment if that is the only charge against you.

Second, because we are locking up all of these people for offenses like this, it results in overcrowded prisons like what we are seeing here. Overcrowded prisons are a strain on the inmates, on the staff, and on budgets.

Lastly, putting drug abusers in prison when they have not committed other crimes and introducing them to this environment can not only be dangerous, as evidenced by this story, but if they make it out alive it is probable they will come out more likely to commit crimes against others. This is something that research has shown in a number of studies.

Just some thoughts I had in wanting to share this story with you all.

http://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/culpeper-man-dies-after-beating-at-piedmont-regional-jail/article_9ff1d8e4-d279-5a45-9972-029f12b36b9a.html

I do agree with the argument that the justice system is heavy on the punishment and light on the reforming, though I don't know if I've seen an effective solution presented that would remedy this.

I also agree that many drug offenses maybe shouldn't require prison sentences (at least, not on the first few offenses). 

[StLucieBengal]

This is a good thread.

We have a serious problem of rehabilitation for people with substance abuse. And when they get into the legal system they are just chewed up and spit out.

They should have some sort of hard labor/rehab place where they can work on their issues while doing something constructive.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

I don't think anyone has ever claimed the legal system is great, but the problem is finding something that works better. I think there should be some drugs legalized, but some just simply are no good. Plus drugs that lead to addictions, always leads into more crime. Robberies, muggings, murders, etc, in order to pay for addictions. Also that drug money then often goes to financing gangs, which leads to more crime.

The way they're doing it isn't a great solution, but I am not sure there are any great solutions out there.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-31-2017, 06:26 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: This is a good thread.

We have a serious problem of rehabilitation for people with substance abuse. And when they get into the legal system they are just chewed up and spit out.

They should have some sort of hard labor/rehab place where they can work on their issues while doing something constructive.

Hard labor/rehab place.

Because nothing goes with weaning someone off of narcotics like hard labor.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(08-31-2017, 06:26 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: This is a good thread.  

We have a serious problem of rehabilitation for people with substance abuse.  And when they get into the legal system they are just chewed up and spit out.

They should have some sort of hard labor/rehab place where they can work on their issues while doing something constructive.

I kinda agree with you...I think hell just froze over.

Minus the hard labor part. Stay with me though, I'll explain below.

(09-01-2017, 01:09 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Hard labor/rehab place.

Because nothing goes with weaning someone off of narcotics like hard labor.

While it does pain me to be agreement with lucy (no offense lucy), hear me out.  I don't post as much as I used to, but I do still read the board almost everyday, and you and I are in agreement on most issues (at least I think so from reading your posts).

I think there is something that can be said for forced treatment.  Breech you have more medical knowledge than I, period.  However I do have some experience as an NA, clerk, security enforcer on an emergency psychiatric unit in a hospital in Indiana for eight years (I should clarify also that I don't work there anymore and haven't for about nine years or so).  One of the many types patients that we treated of course was substance abuse.  I've seen many court ordered into treatment for whatever reason mainly because jail  was the alternative.  I've seen some patients even come back to us and thank us for changing their lives.  I've also seen many repeat offenders over, and over, and over...etc.  I used to be a hardliner on the thought that if are not willing to check themselves into rehab, then their is little to no hope for them.  But I've seen it in person, that sometimes it can help.  However please don't misconstrue that I think we should be locking up everyone that is abusing substances.  Trust me when I say that I've abused some substances...lol.  And I know most of you have.  

But there is a real opiate epidemic out there, and I think all measures need to be on the table.  Well minus the hard labor part.  Because I don't think making people work as slaves is going to be helping them. But forced treatment? Maybe...I think it depends on the individual.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-01-2017, 02:30 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: I kinda agree with you...I think hell just froze over.

Minus the hard labor part. Stay with me though, I'll explain below.

While it does pain me to be agreement with lucy (no offense lucy), hear me out.  I don't post as much as I used to, but I do still read the board almost everyday, and you and I are in agreement on most issues (at least I think so from reading your posts).

I think there is something that can be said for forced treatment.  Breech you have more medical knowledge than I, period.  However I do have some experience as an NA, clerk, security enforcer on an emergency psychiatric unit in a hospital in Indiana for eight years (I should clarify also that I don't work there anymore and haven't for about nine years or so).  One of the many types patients that we treated of course was substance abuse.  I've seen many court ordered into treatment for whatever reason mainly because jail  was the alternative.  I've seen some patients even come back to us and thank us for changing their lives.  I've also seen many repeat offenders over, and over, and over...etc.  I used to be a hardliner on the thought that if are not willing to check themselves into rehab, then their is little to no hope for them.  But I've seen it in person, that sometimes it can help.  However please don't misconstrue that I think we should be locking up everyone that is abusing substances.  Trust me when I say that I've abused some substances...lol.  And I know most of you have.  

But there is a real opiate epidemic out there, and I think all measures need to be on the table.  Well minus the hard labor part.  Because I don't think making people work as slaves is going to be helping them. But forced treatment? Maybe...I think it depends on the individual.

The hard labor part is to give them some sort of purpose. After all idle hands are the devils playground.

10 hours of a hard job possibly learn a skill then have their rehab treatments and sleep. Rinse - repeat.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-01-2017, 03:03 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The hard labor part is to give them some sort of purpose. After all idle hands are the devils playground.

10 hours of a hard job possibly learn a skill then have their rehab treatments and sleep. Rinse - repeat.

When do you schedule their withdrawal?

[Belsnickel]

While there seems to be a focus on the specific of hard labor, Lucile's premise isn't entirely wrong. I am an addict, my vice was just cigarettes. Out of all of the times I "tried to quit," the only one that stuck was when I really wanted to. Something had changed in my life that made me want to stop smoking. I knew I was in a bad place health wise and needed to turn something around. I am still not great, but at least I have been tobacco free for over four years.

My point is that if we just order people into treatment, it isn't going to stick if they aren't ready. We need to find a way to give them some sort of reason to want it to stick. One of the tools to help a lot of these folks find some of that purpose that could provide that is job training. It doesn't have to be hard labor, and it may not even be job training that will do it for them, but it's an idea.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-01-2017, 07:46 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: While there seems to be a focus on the specific of hard labor, Lucile's premise isn't entirely wrong. I am an addict, my vice was just cigarettes. Out of all of the times I "tried to quit," the only one that stuck was when I really wanted to. Something has changed in my life that made me want to stop smoking. I knew I was in a bad place health wise and needed to turn something around. I am still not great, but at least I have been tobacco free for over four years.

My point is that if we just order people into treatment, it isn't going to stick if they aren't ready. We need to find a way to give them some sort of reason to want it to stick. One of the Amy's to help a lot of these folks find some of that purpose that could provide that is job training. It doesn't have to be hard labor, and it may not even be job training that will do it for them, but it's an idea.

That's the number one predictor of success.

My focus on the hard labor is that it doesn't mix very well with someone being weaned off of a opioid addiction who are generally in poor physical health with an increased chance of withdrawal. At a minimum, it could precipitate a hypertensive emergency and kill someone. Rehab and hard labor need to be two distinct entities.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(09-01-2017, 03:03 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The hard labor part is to give them some sort of purpose.  After all idle hands are the devils playground.  

10 hours of a hard job possibly learn a skill then have their rehab treatments and sleep.   Rinse - repeat.

You don't understand addiction at all.  You've made that clear with this post. And I regret extending an olive branch to you.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-01-2017, 07:46 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: While there seems to be a focus on the specific of hard labor, Lucile's premise isn't entirely wrong. I am an addict, my vice was just cigarettes. Out of all of the times I "tried to quit," the only one that stuck was when I really wanted to. Something has changed in my life that made me want to stop smoking. I knew I was in a bad place health wise and needed to turn something around. I am still not great, but at least I have been tobacco free for over four years.

My point is that if we just order people into treatment, it isn't going to stick if they aren't ready. We need to find a way to give them some sort of reason to want it to stick. One of the Amy's to help a lot of these folks find some of that purpose that could provide that is job training. It doesn't have to be hard labor, and it may not even be job training that will do it for them, but it's an idea.

Have a family friend who's a parole officer and that was his take on it, too. He was against funding mandatory rehab/treatment programs because unless you WANT it to work, it never will, and there's already enough places/private programs that will take in someone who's seeking help.

Congrats on quitting, by the way.

[Belsnickel]

(09-01-2017, 09:56 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: That's the number one predictor of success.

My focus on the hard labor is that it doesn't mix very well with someone being weaned off of a opioid addiction who are generally in poor physical health with an increased chance of withdrawal. At a minimum, it could precipitate a hypertensive emergency and kill someone. Rehab and hard labor need to be two distinct entities.

I get that, which is why I took the broader intent behind it. Also, there is zero doubt to me that for an addict there will be a period of time will they will not be able to do much of anything. It's a process.

[Belsnickel]

(09-01-2017, 10:08 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: You don't understand addiction at all.  You've made that clear with this post. And I regret extending an olive branch to you.

It is clear he doesn't understand addiction, but this is not a helpful approach to take. If we are going to have discussions in society, not just on this board, about improving our communities, we need to have dialogue. He isn't 100% wrong in his intent, but his lack of understanding of the physiological side of addiction and withdrawal has misled him. We shouldn't cut off dialogue because of this, we should seek understanding, provide knowledge, and further the discussion.

(09-01-2017, 10:09 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Have a family friend who's a parole officer and that was his take on it, too. He was against funding mandatory rehab/treatment programs because unless you WANT it to work, it never will, and there's already enough places/private programs that will take in someone who's seeking help.

Congrats on quitting, by the way.

This is why I'm for a more comprehensive program that attempts to provide a more stable life overall. We have a tendency in our society to view issues in a vacuum and only treat the one issue. But you can't do that, you have to look at root causes, you have to take a more holistic approach to the person and realize they are more than just this one thing. It's not easy, and it takes longer on average, but the success rate would be higher and the long-term costs to budgets and society as a whole would be reduced.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(09-01-2017, 07:46 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: While there seems to be a focus on the specific of hard labor, Lucile's premise isn't entirely wrong. I am an addict, my vice was just cigarettes. Out of all of the times I "tried to quit," the only one that stuck was when I really wanted to. Something has changed in my life that made me want to stop smoking. I knew I was in a bad place health wise and needed to turn something around. I am still not great, but at least I have been tobacco free for over four years.

My point is that if we just order people into treatment, it isn't going to stick if they aren't ready. We need to find a way to give them some sort of reason to want it to stick. One of the Amy's to help a lot of these folks find some of that purpose that could provide that is job training. It doesn't have to be hard labor, and it may not even be job training that will do it for them, but it's an idea.

While I am not trying to minimize your addiction.  And I'm not trying to say your struggle isn't real or hard and I understand the struggle you've endured in trying to give it up.  However it is a bit different than opiate addiction.  Don't get me wrong, I still believe that the best option for rehabbing someone is when they want to give it up.  When the cost has become to much is when it happens if it does.

That being said I think there are degrees of addiction so to speak.  I've known people that were alcoholics (and/or hooked on other things) but continue to smoke cigs.  Hey if there only vice is cigs, I'm ok with that vs the booze.  Don't get me wrong though I understand Tabaco is a tough thing to break.  

[Belsnickel]

(09-01-2017, 10:38 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: While I am not trying to minimize your addiction.  And I'm not trying to say your struggle isn't real or hard and I understand the struggle you've endured in trying to give it up.  However it is a bit different than opiate addiction.  Don't get me wrong, I still believe that the best option for rehabbing someone is when they want to give it up.  When the cost has become to much is when it happens if it does.

That being said I think there are degrees of addiction so to speak.  I've known people that were alcoholics (and/or hooked on other things) but continue to smoke cigs.  Hey if there only vice is cigs, I'm ok with that vs the booze.  Don't get me wrong though I understand Tabaco is a tough thing to break.  

Oh, I know. My addiction is minor in the grand scheme of things and the physiological toll I took from it was nothing in comparison to what some others go through (I apparently wasn't even grumpy). But that main principle of having to want to is the key. I think that programs that provide people the tools and the conditions to come to the conclusion that they want to quit would be the most beneficial when used in conjunction with rehab.

This is just something I've read about when doing some policy research and it was really enlightening.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(09-01-2017, 10:37 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: It is clear he doesn't understand addiction, but this is not a helpful approach to take. If we are going to have discussions in society, not just on this board, about improving our communities, we need to have dialogue. He isn't 100% wrong in his intent, but his lack of understanding of the physiological side of addiction and withdrawal has misled him. We shouldn't cut off dialogue because of this, we should seek understanding, provide knowledge, and further the discussion.

No you're right dialogue is the right path, I think I just get frustrated when anyone suggests that hard labor is the right path to treating addiction.  It's so misguided.

My response is in bold.  thought I used the quote function correctly,  I guess not.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-01-2017, 10:37 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is why I'm for a more comprehensive program that attempts to provide a more stable life overall. We have a tendency in our society to view issues in a vacuum and only treat the one issue. But you can't do that, you have to look at root causes, you have to take a more holistic approach to the person and realize they are more than just this one thing. It's not easy, and it takes longer on average, but the success rate would be higher and the long-term costs to budgets and society as a whole would be reduced.

I'm for letting people just do drugs if they want so long as they don't get violent, but making them live with the consequences. You get one OD rescue from 911, after that you're on your own. Choices. Consequences.

If you don't wake up from one near-death experience and seek help, then you need to be left to your own choices. All of a sudden then drugs become a scarier experience, people are dying, and maybe someone decides that doesn't sound like something they want to try after all.

Your version sounds all nice and flowery, but at some point you need to say enough is enough and stop coddling them and wasting everyone's time and money on them. Why work 40 hours a week, when it goes towards giving junkies free room, board, and job training?

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(09-01-2017, 10:41 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Oh, I know. My addiction is minor in the grand scheme of things and the physiological toll I took from it was nothing in comparison to what some others go through (I apparently wasn't even grumpy). But that main principle of having to want to is the key. I think that programs that provide people the tools and the conditions to come to the conclusion that they want to quit would be the most beneficial when used in conjunction with rehab.

This is just something I've read about when doing some policy research and it was really enlightening.

Like I've said I don't really disagree with you.  The ideal situation is when an individual WANTS to get clean.  Absolutely 100% agree on that.  However I do believe that some addictions are dangerous to society and forced treatment could be an option.  I just read an article in the USA Today about the subject I'll see if I can find it.   Sorry I still read an actual Newspaper, so I'll have to see if I can find it on-line.  lol