The hourly rate you need to afford a two-bedroom apartment in every state

[StLucieBengal]

(06-11-2016, 09:59 PM)GMDino Wrote: Yeah, wanting to be paid for the work you do so you don't have to work two jobs to "make it".


Make America Great again!

Just not with unions and living wages and benefits.

Why do you fight for the raised min wage when it sounds like you would prefer a mincome?  To me a mincome makes more sense than a min wage anyway.   You could totally disband the min wage all together.  It's just a tool used by unions to raise wages anyway.   

[Sovereign Nation]

(06-11-2016, 09:59 PM)GMDino Wrote: Yeah, wanting to be paid for the work you do so you don't have to work two jobs to "make it".


Make America Great again!

Just not with unions and living wages and benefits.

Well if the "work" you are doing is not skilled then is it really work?

Got it you don't think people should have to work, and should have everything given to them.  

Instead of focusing on a secondary non issue such as working 2 jobs, lets go back to the original point and that is about lowering the cost of living.  Or do you think that is not part of the American Dream?

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-11-2016, 09:22 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: All this talk about raising the minimum wage and it's pros vs cons and yet no one seems to want to ask this....


Why don't we try to lower the cost of living?

If you didn't have to spend so much for milk and bread then that 7.25 goes a lot farther.

Not only that but why aren't some people willing to work 2 full time jobs?  I understand NOT everyone will be able to do so, however there are many men that could actually work 2 jobs and 80 hours a week.  After finishing at BK go across the street to McDonalds.  It isn't like they have a non compete contract clause or anything.  7.25 x 2 would be 14.50.

If the cost of living were decreased then 14.50 would be more than enough to survive off of.

To me, when I saw this post originally, I thought that the main issue isn't that the minimum wage is too low, but the cost of living is too high.

First of all, working 80 hours a week is something no one should have to do. Second, two $7.25hr jobs isn't $14.50 per hour.

[GMDino]

(06-11-2016, 10:14 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Well if the "work" you are doing is not skilled then is it really work?

Got it you don't think people should have to work, and should have everything given to them.  

Instead of focusing on a secondary non issue such as working 2 jobs, lets go back to the original point and that is about lowering the cost of living.  Or do you think that is not part of the American Dream?

Go ask a coal miner.

As to that lowering the cost "idea"...how?  Pay people less? Lower business taxes to below zero? National control of pricing?

Just because you think you have an "idea" doesn't mean you can just spout it with no realistic way of implementing it.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-11-2016, 10:39 PM)GMDino Wrote: Go ask a coal miner.

As to that lowering the cost "idea"...how?  Pay people less? Lower business taxes to below zero? National control of pricing?

Just because you think you have an "idea" doesn't mean you can just spout it with no realistic way of implementing it.

Lowering the cost of living could be done but it would require a lot of cooperation...so it's not really realistic. 

For example. At my job, i buy a part for $50, mark it up and sell it for $83.95. We could lower the mark up by 18%, still make a 50% profit and save the consumer $9 on that one $50 (my cost) part. Labor rates are similar. $60+ per hour is almost criminal. 

The problem is, cost (on our part) has to rise to cover the overhead of running the business; gas, insurance, repair to equipment, etc etc. 

So it would take a massive amount of cooperation from the top down to lower the cost of living, which, as i  said, isn't really realistic. It "could" be done. But it's highly unlikely. 

[GMDino]

(06-11-2016, 10:55 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Lowering the cost of living could be done but it would require a lot of cooperation...so it's not really realistic. 

For example. At my job, i buy a part for $50, mark it up and sell it for $83.95. We could lower the mark up by 18%, still make a 50% profit and save the consumer $9 on that one $50 (my cost) part. Labor rates are similar. $60+ per hour is almost criminal. 

The problem is, cost (on our part) has to rise to cover the overhead of running the business; gas, insurance, repair to equipment, etc etc. 

So it would take a massive amount of cooperation from the top down to lower the cost of living, which, as i  said, isn't really realistic. It "could" be done. But it's highly unlikely. 

Oh no doubt we could do LOTS of good things if we worked together.

But my god is better than yours, that guy over there is the wrong color, that lady doesn't speak English well enough and there is NO way that whathisface is going to make less per year just to make things better for someone else!

[Sovereign Nation]

(06-11-2016, 10:39 PM)GMDino Wrote: Go ask a coal miner.

As to that lowering the cost "idea"...how?  Pay people less? Lower business taxes to below zero? National control of pricing?

Just because you think you have an "idea" doesn't mean you can just spout it with no realistic way of implementing it.

A coal miner is NOT a burger flipper.... love to change the parameters don't you?

It does take a skill to work in a coal mine and it is also a dangerous job, hence the reason they are paid what they are and a burger flipper is paid minimum.

As to how?  Well, I know I saved a bunch of money by switching to Geico...

In all seriousness, when I started gardening and using Aquaponics I saved a lot of money on groceries.  When I decided to use solar power I saved money on utilities.  When I decided to cut cable as well as satellite TV, I saved a lot of money.  By using a co op to get items, such as eggs and cheese while I traded garlic and tomatoes, I saved money.

When my wife quit working, we actually saved money by her not having to purchase gas as much, no daycare cost and not as much wear and tear on her vehicle.

Of course these are all ways in which I saved and cut cost.  Which in turn stretches my income further.  Other people may not be willing to do these things.  However just because they are not willing doesn't mean that it isn't feasible.

[Sovereign Nation]

(06-11-2016, 10:26 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: First of all, working 80 hours a week is something no one should have to do. Second, two $7.25hr jobs isn't $14.50 per hour.

1st.  Just because you think someone shouldn't have to work 80 hours a week doesn't mean a person COULDN'T work 80 hours a week.  The key to this is you don't think, as in your opinion.

2nd.  You are correct, I misspoke, what I mean to suggest is that if I were working at McDonald's at 7.25 for 40 hours, then I, personally, myself, would not hesitate to walk over to Burger King and work 40 hours with them for 7.25 as well.  Sure someone could make 14.50 and only work 1 job and that is good for them and they must have a skill that allows them to command such a rate.  However if I were so unskilled and unwilling to do the jobs that have a higher risk of danger to them and only wanted to work in fast food, then in order to make the same in one week as the 14.50 guy, I would have to work 2 jobs to equal that person's pay.

[GMDino]

(06-11-2016, 11:16 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: A coal miner is NOT a burger flipper.... love to change the parameters don't you?

It does take a skill to work in a coal mine and it is also a dangerous job, hence the reason they are paid what they are and a burger flipper is paid minimum.

As to how?  Well, I know I saved a bunch of money by switching to Geico...

In all seriousness, when I started gardening and using Aquaponics I saved a lot of money on groceries.  When I decided to use solar power I saved money on utilities.  When I decided to cut cable as well as satellite TV, I saved a lot of money.  By using a co op to get items, such as eggs and cheese while I traded garlic and tomatoes, I saved money.

When my wife quit working, we actually saved money by her not having to purchase gas as much, no daycare cost and not as much wear and tear on her vehicle.

Of course these are all ways in which I saved and cut cost.  Which in turn stretches my income further.  Other people may not be willing to do these things.  However just because they are not willing doesn't mean that it isn't feasible.

"Burger flippers" get trained in all aspects of the restaurant.  McDonald's, for example, likes to promote from within.  So they learn all the various jobs and should be able to fill in anywhere.

Coal miners have good wages due to their dangerous jobs thanks to years of fighting for it.

Kind of like others are doing now trying to get better wages.

Funny how that happened.

But it's not "skilled" like a doctor or a lawyer or a "college educated" profession.  Just like a burger flipper.

Oh and could for you saving...even that has nothing to do with how to do it nationally or how it would work.  Still a great "idea".

[Sovereign Nation]

(06-11-2016, 11:04 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh no doubt we could do LOTS of good things if we worked together.

But my god is better than yours, that guy over there is the wrong color, that lady doesn't speak English well enough and there is NO way that whathisface is going to make less per year just to make things better for someone else!

So you admit that there are ways that we could cut cost, yet in your reply to me, you went with it not being feasible.

Which is it?

[GMDino]

(06-11-2016, 11:25 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: So you admit that there are ways that we could cut cost, yet in your reply to me, you went with it not being feasible.

Which is it?

There are ways for you to save money.  You didn't cut the cost of anything. 

The apple at the store still cost .79 for me even if you have your own tree.

The word "nation" is in your name...your "idea" won't happen across the nation and you have no idea how to do it.  Just an "idea".

[Sovereign Nation]

(06-11-2016, 11:23 PM)GMDino Wrote: "Burger flippers" get trained in all aspects of the restaurant.  McDonald's, for example, likes to promote from within.  So they learn all the various jobs and should be able to fill in anywhere.

Coal miners have good wages due to their dangerous jobs thanks to years of fighting for it.

Kind of like others are doing now trying to get better wages.

Funny how that happened.

But it's not "skilled" like a doctor or a lawyer or a "college educated" profession.  Just like a burger flipper.

Oh and could for you saving...even that has nothing to do with how to do it nationally or how it would work.  Still a great "idea".

So if you start at the minimum wage at McDonald's you can actually experience growth and be promoted in which you will make MORE than minimum wage?  Hmmm... then what are you crying about? 

Yeah they fought by going on strike, which coal is an energy source and was needed.  I don't see how a burger flipper is a needed profession?  I mean sure fast food is a convenience but it isn't vital to man's survival.

Well, I would think that nationally you could implement some of these programs.  I remember seeing something about an urban gardener, he called himself the "Gansta Gardener", who went to the city about the unused land on his street that was barren and looked terrible.  He was told that he should clean it up himself, so he did by planting edible food.  One night he heard a noise and went out and found a homeless man picking the food.  The man started apologizing and went to give the food back, but the gardener declined and said that is what it is there for.  He told the guy to take what he wanted and to share the information.  I am not sure but if I recall the government tried to shut the gardener down.  Feel free to google this. 

If you can't find it, let me know, I will see if I can find the video, I think it was a Tedx Talk.  One of the few talks that I actually enjoyed.

The point is, getting food shouldn't be relegated to going to the local store.  If the majority of the population were to utilize the alternative ways to get food, then that would be a national thing.  If we changed the mindset of being consumers just for the sake of consuming for the majority instead of us "fringe" thinkers, then we would see a difference on the national level.

Of course, I don't expect any of these ideas to be discussed and brought up by politicians and especially economist.  I also expect people like yourself who will deride it because it is different than what you have known.  However, for myself and many of my friend, this is the path that we prefer to take.  It has been working so far.

[Sovereign Nation]

(06-11-2016, 11:30 PM)GMDino Wrote: There are ways for you to save money.  You didn't cut the cost of anything. 

The apple at the store still cost .79 for me even if you have your own tree.

The word "nation" is in your name...your "idea" won't happen across the nation and you have no idea how to do it.  Just an "idea".

It isn't an idea... it was a question.

The question was

Why not focus on lowering the cost of living?

So let us again go back to that....

Why not think about ways to lower the cost of living?

The apple only cost you .79 because you aren't willing to ask me for one from my tree or provide something to me that would have me trade an apple to you.  Or you COULD tend your own apple tree.

Now if you wanted you could even buy an apple from me for a lot less than .79.  I would be willing to sell you an apple for .5.  Especially if I have no need of the apple and it would spoil before I could get use out of it.

[Benton]

(06-12-2016, 12:16 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: It isn't an idea... it was a question.

The question was

Why not focus on lowering the cost of living?

So let us again go back to that....

Why not think about ways to lower the cost of living?

The apple only cost you .79 because you aren't willing to ask me for one from my tree or provide something to me that would have me trade an apple to you.  Or you COULD tend your own apple tree.

Now if you wanted you could even buy an apple from me for a lot less than .79.  I would be willing to sell you an apple for .5.  Especially if I have no need of the apple and it would spoil before I could get use out of it.

Tending an apple tree is fine, but it requires the capital to buy land and seeds. Similar to trading for an apple... Whatever you trade requires an investment.

[*bfine32*]

(06-11-2016, 10:26 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: First of all, working 80 hours a week is something no one should have to do. 

Why not?

[StLucieBengal]

We have a pretty extensive garden, we try and can what's possible, make some kompot... It's something that I never did but my wife always did growing up. I like it and it really cuts our costs for food. I didn't believe it until we went over our budgets and I noticed the difference.

[StLucieBengal]

(06-12-2016, 12:55 AM)Benton Wrote: Tending an apple tree is fine, but it requires the capital to buy land and seeds. Similar to trading for an apple... Whatever you trade requires an investment.

We have orange and lemon trees in our backyard.  One tree puts out loads....   Don't own apple trees but I imagine they are hearty.   

[Sovereign Nation]

(06-12-2016, 12:55 AM)Benton Wrote: Tending an apple tree is fine, but it requires the capital to buy land and seeds. Similar to trading for an apple... Whatever you trade requires an investment.

Tending an apple tree doesn't require as much as you think.  As far as owning land, well there are many places of land that is in our cities that are unused and are capable of yielding apple trees (not just apple trees and btw, I don't grow apple trees, I have 1 peach tree and 1 pear tree in my yard, my wife's grandmother has an orange tree), a lot of times you just plant them and let mother nature do what she does. 

Feel free to look up survival gardening and you can see that there is a way to have a garden that you don't even have to tend.  Which will provide food that you don't have to actually farm for.  The food is usually there for when you want or need it.

What I seem to gather is that people want convenience, they have an entitlement mentality and a defeatist personality.  Remember way back when I said I am glad this doesn't pertain to me, well this is why.  I could care less if the wage is lifted to 15 an hour but why stop there, why not just go for 50 to 100 an hour?  I mean everyone should be making the same, right?  Well go ahead, push for it, or as Dino says, fight for it, when it comes to pass and it doesn't work, then you can just raise it again. 

Since I do have my gardens and aquaponics, I never have to really worry about getting food.  Since I do know goat owners and chicken owners, I know I have access to eggs and milk and yes even cheese.  Not only that but goat is actually quite good eating and I hear is better for you than cows.  Since I do have solar power that can run the essentials, I am not even worried if the grid fell. 

I started out as a prepper, then I realized that off-grid living is more for me.  Since changing my mindset, I became happier as far as work goes, since I wasn't working to make money to buy food or to pay my mortgage (I went over seas to be a rent-a-cop and made great money to pay off my home) or to get essential power.  I was working to go on vacations and not just a vacation to go to see relatives, but to go to places like Thailand, Uganda, Dubai.  This year, going back to Thailand, next year wife and I are going to Lithuania the year after the Altafjord.  I had to change my own mindset and that is all anyone can do.

[Sovereign Nation]

(06-12-2016, 01:27 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: We have a pretty extensive garden, we try and can what's possible, make some kompot...    It's something that I never did but my wife always did growing up.   I like it and it really cuts our costs for food.   I didn't believe it until we went over our budgets and I noticed the difference.

Your wife is from Europe, from what I gather, a lot of people in Europe garden and are even encouraged to do so.  Imagine if we did the same here?

[Sovereign Nation]

(06-12-2016, 01:23 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Why not?

This is a great question.... I would love to hear the answer that some will have for it.