The issue of separation with our wide receivers

[Stonyhands]

(12-28-2017, 07:31 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Is this a talent issue, coaching issue, or scheme issue? I see other teams finding ways to get their guys open and it seems like that is never the case with us. What's the problem?

Hard to tell. Could be a QB issue. If a QB can’t read zone coverage they won’t know who should be open. Could be scheme. Three step timing patterns that end up being predetermined throws before the play. This could be due to a bad o-line or having a QB that’s not good at reading the field.

We’ve see a lot lot of play calls where Andy is seen using a three step drop and throwing to covered receivers. Other times he drops back and either nobody is open or he’s terrible at finding the open receiver because he checks down to the RB a lot more than other QBs.

[Air Force 1]

When 85 is running down the seams and the middle, it makes getting separation so much easier.

[BengalsRocker]

(12-29-2017, 04:02 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Hard to tell.  Could be a QB issue.  If a QB can’t read zone coverage they won’t know who should be open.  Could be scheme.  Three step timing patterns that end up being predetermined throws before the play.  This could be due to a bad o-line or having a QB that’s not good at reading the field.  

We’ve see a lot lot of play calls where Andy is seen using a three step drop and throwing to covered receivers.   Other times he drops back and either nobody is open or he’s terrible at finding the open receiver because he checks down to the RB a lot more than other QBs.

Sorry. Don't agree to your check down RB statement.

Only recently have they used Gio more as a check down option.

Usually if the RB is not getting the ball either they are designed to block or predetermined passes towards the sidelines.

I'd have to say in the past using a RB beyond the LOS especially in the middle of the field was a HUGE flaw in the offensive scheme.

Gio or even Mixon in space is a good thing... even in a check down situation.

The O-Line has just sucked so bad that they keep the RB home to block more.

So no...  Dalton isn't Captain Check Down.

I think you're basing that statement on current games(where it looks to be designed)and not the whole big picture of Dalton's history.

[CornerBlitz]

It's a mix of everything from scheme, to WRs to the QB.

[Sweetness]

When your a CB who doesn't have to worry much about the ball being thrown deep outside the seams because it going to go out if bounds it's easier to sit on the quick short game. Dalton has no touch on his throws and he doesn't have the arm to gun it in to people. Like others have said, it's a combination of alot of thing but I think alot of it comes down to the limitations of our QB. The year Dalton had his best was his best year at throwing the deep ball. He appears to have lost all ability to throw it over 30 yards.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(12-29-2017, 04:02 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Hard to tell. Could be a QB issue. If a QB can’t read zone coverage they won’t know who should be open. Could be scheme. Three step timing patterns that end up being predetermined throws before the play. This could be due to a bad o-line or having a QB that’s not good at reading the field.

We’ve see a lot lot of play calls where Andy is seen using a three step drop and throwing to covered receivers. Other times he drops back and either nobody is open or he’s terrible at finding the open receiver because he checks down to the RB a lot more than other QBs.

It’s very difficult to find an open receiver when you’re on the bottom of a pile of defensive lineman, running for your life, or with an unblocked linebacker in your face.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

As others have noted, it begins and ends up front.  You can get pressure with 3 guys sometimes on this bunch.....that's pathetic.  That also leaves 8 defenders to cover, so even when you don't have instant pressure, you run into the problem of no one being open and coverage sacks.  Also, there hasn't been much need to play the run, as we couldn't do that either.  In addition, DBs last season said they knew what we were doing before we did it.....so, Zampese.  There are a myriad of issues, but your biggest problem in the porous line.  Too many people able to cover, no run threat, and sometimes no time for the route to develop allowing guys to get open.  Another problem I see, is when the play breaks down, and the QB scrambles, I never see WRs breaking off the route and coming back to the QB to give him an outlet.  Again, coaching.

[sandwedge]

(12-29-2017, 01:24 PM)Wyche Wrote: As others have noted, it begins and ends up front.  You can get pressure with 3 guys sometimes on this bunch.....that's pathetic.  That also leaves 8 defenders to cover, so even when you don't have instant pressure, you run into the problem of no one being open and coverage sacks.  Also, there hasn't been much need to play the run, as we couldn't do that either.  In addition, DBs last season said they knew what we were doing before we did it.....so, Zampese.  There are a myriad of issues, but your biggest problem in the porous line.  Too many people able to cover, no run threat, and sometimes no time for the route to develop allowing guys to get open.  Another problem I see, is when the play breaks down, and the QB scrambles, I never see WRs breaking off the route and coming back to the QB to give him an outlet.  Again, coaching.

People underestimate the importance of play action. Lbers and DBs don't worry when there isn't a running game to begin with.

[bengals67]

(12-28-2017, 08:41 PM)dr tarzan Wrote: I think scheme is a HUGE chunk of the problem.  When I watch the downfield play, I can't tell you how many times the defender completely ignored feints and fakes and went right to where the receiver was going to sit or cut.   It was like they were in our playbook.

scary observation

I recall a couple of games this year where someone on the opposing D said after the game theyt knew what was coming every play.

[sandwedge]

I don't think we test the middle of the field enough. Except for that stupid 2 yd slant. Everything is mostly outside the numbers. How often do you see AJ run across the middle in the redzone? Hardly ever, it's the fade route, to predictable. It would be great to see more routes from our TEs but they are needed to block.

[bengalhoel]

(12-28-2017, 07:31 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Is this a talent issue, coaching issue, or scheme issue?  I see other teams finding ways to get their guys open and it seems like that is never the case with us.  What's the problem?

Before N.E got Cooks last year, would you trade their WR with ours...?  RB's?  Good coaching can get talent open.

[BengalsRocker]

(12-29-2017, 07:58 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Sorry. Don't agree to your check down RB statement.

Only recently have they used Gio more as a check down option.

Usually if the RB is not getting the ball either they are designed to block or predetermined passes towards the sidelines.

I'd have to say in the past using a RB beyond the LOS especially in the middle of the field was a HUGE flaw in the offensive scheme.

Gio or even Mixon in space is a good thing... even in a check down situation.

The O-Line has just sucked so bad that they keep the RB home to block more.

So no...  Dalton isn't Captain Check Down.

I think you're basing that statement on current games(where it looks to be designed)and not the whole big picture of Dalton's history.

The more I thought about this after I posted it...  the more I thought about using the RB as a receiving option in space.

This mess of a team has underutilized the RB as a legit receiving option from Palmer years to now.

Different OCs have come and gone.  What has remained?  MARVIN.

Does this mean that Marvin is poking his nose in the offense or nixing plays of this nature.

I realize that Rudi, Benson, BJGE, aren't receiving "threats" but they were not even used as check downs.

Perhaps Bernard Scott was used in this fashion.  I can't remember.

So I ask other posters.  Other than Gio recently were RBs used very much for check down options?

[*ochocincos*]

(12-28-2017, 07:40 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: It is a talent issue with Lafell and Boyd, their strengths are running good routes and having good hands.

It is a coaching issue with Malone, Core and Ross cause their strengths are their speed and getting seperation and we don't use them often.

Urban has not done very good with his guys this year, especially Core who was hyped by even me before the season.

I am sure the scheme is a huge part of it too.

All depends on if the O-line is giving your QB enough time so he can hit the WR's if or when they get open.

I was one who argued against Core in the offseason. The reason was because there was so much hype about him running a max speed of 22.8 mph and people immediately started assuming he would get instant separation. However, it was never stated at what point in the go route he reached that speed. Given he also struggled with separation, I think it’s safe to assume that max speed was reached late in the route and he needs a bit of space and time to build up to that speed.

But the main issue is time Dalton has/decides to throw. People need to realize that the fastest anyone has ever ran 40 yards in an official timed event has been 4+ seconds. If Dalton is throwing the ball in less than 3 seconds, WRs are not going to magically be really deep. So with that short window, receivers have to get open by play design, route running, body shifts, footwork, etc.


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[HarleyDog]

OL, lack of speed and horrible coaching. Next question! 

[*bfine32*]

(12-29-2017, 11:13 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: OL, lack of speed and horrible coaching. Next question! 

Our WRs are plenty fast

[J24]

(12-29-2017, 11:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Our WRs are plenty fast

Boyd ran a 4.58, Laffell ran a 4.6, Malone ran a 4.4,  Core ran a 4.4, Erickson ran a 4.4 ,and Green ran a 4.5. that's not that fast of a unit.

[*bfine32*]

(12-29-2017, 11:42 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Boyd ran a 4.58, Laffell ran a 4.6, Malone ran a 4.4,  Core ran a 4.4, Erickson ran a 4.4 ,and Green ran a 4.5. that's not that fast of a unit.

Okey Doke

[*Synric*]

(12-29-2017, 11:42 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Boyd ran a 4.58, Laffell ran a 4.6, Malone ran a 4.4,  Core ran a 4.4, Erickson ran a 4.4 ,and Green ran a 4.5. that's not that fast of a unit.

Hate when people use 40 times to talk about speed. 

It's less about how fast that 40 time was and more how quick they can get to that top speed.  How quick their feet are in cuts etc and so forth.

Malone ran a 4.4 flat and AJ Green ran a 4.5, but Green is more explosive off the line than Malone who has to work up to that speed.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-28-2017, 07:31 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Is this a talent issue, coaching issue, or scheme issue?  I see other teams finding ways to get their guys open and it seems like that is never the case with us.  What's the problem?

Combination of talent and scheme....

Talent:  Lafell gets shut down by single coverage and doesn't generate separation.  This forces Dalton to hold on to the ball.  The scheme uses Lafell over the much faster Core and Ross, and also never throws back shoulder passes (something Dalton does very well) which can create an opportunity for the WR like Lafell that has no separation to break back quickly on the ball and make the reception when he jams on the brakes.  

Even AJ Green doesn't get separation....instantly.  AJ is more of a long strider with great elusiveness at full speed.  He is perfect opposite a burner like Ross, which is why I was so excited about that pick.  

Boyd and Erickson in the slot should be better than they are.  I was very disappointed in Boyd this year, and I don't know what kind of a teammate he is, but it seemed that they were not very eager to go in his direction.  He would show flashes, but also looked like he would take a play off when he wasn't the primary receiver.  

Scheme:  The aforementioned back shoulder throw.  The quick pass to a WR like Core, Malone, Ross, or Green when a DB plays 8+ yards off the LOS.  More deep shots to someone not named Green.  I can't remember a season where we took fewer deep shots than this year.  Some will blame the line for not giving time, but I blame not having Core, Malone, or Ross taking the top off the defense and forcing back safeties, which would also help the rushing attack.  Core, like Ross, had a chance with a deep ball against the Rats in week 1 that Dalton overthrew (it was a TD) and dropped a great pass from Dalton (actually looked like he caught it and fumbled when he hit the ground with the defender) a week later and after going 0-2 on deep balls to him, they never went back to it.  Baltimore used to say that they want to take 5 deep shots a game to make big plays and force DBs to play back.  The Bengals do the opposite, and largely make you only defend one small part of the field.  

The Bengals also poorly design plays for the RBs as receivers. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-28-2017, 07:55 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: It may also be a QB hesitation problem.

Just saying.

Subsequently, it is...

A quick-hit offense is what Dalton is given without WRs that can separate quickly.  Thus, the last ranked offense in the league.  This also plagues the running game.  Do you think Mixon sucks?  The only team he really tore up was the Browns (at least Gio did the Lions) but that problem has to do a lot with the opponents being able to have safeties in the rush defense and pass rush (occasionally) instead of being forced to cover back deep.  

Dalton has to hold the ball if his targets aren't breaking open.  12 INTs (half of which he can thank WRs for tipping balls to defenders) this year and just 7 last year shows you that Dalton doesn't want to force a bad pass, although he is being asked to do that more and more with this horrible WR corps.

You will likely call me a Dalton apologist, or something like that, but I think a new coach will use our weapons based on skills and not grudges and you will see Dalton soar again...just in time for his next contract.