The issues that face the Nation

[xxlt]

(10-25-2016, 06:05 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I can communicate fine, you raci--- oh, I see.

Jokes aside, it's because insults that used to be held in reserve because they actually had a damning meaning have now been flung around so freely that it's lost all meaning other than to try to win a conversation. Everyone is automatically racist/homophobic/islamaphobic/sexist/white supremecist/misogynistic bigots if anyone ever dares to disagree with someone now, it seems.



Isn't the first issue generally fixed by the second one?   

No, no, a thousand times no! But to each his own!

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-25-2016, 02:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Illegal immigration is not high on your list because it doesn't effect you. Now if you were an immigrant trying to enter this country legally, it might have some effect.

I just cannot see how folks can support an illegal activity. For instance if you are here illegally what is "wrong" with deporting you and take the proper steps for legal immigration? Also those that enabled your illegal activity should be punished.

An issue I feel that has been neglected is education, not the cost, but the quality.

Education is second on my list, but we need money to do that, aside from raising taxes, where else can that money come from. That is why I have illegals first.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-25-2016, 12:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This place is just a microcosm of the public, but we were perhaps worse. Supposedly those that frequent this forum are aware of policy and the political issues that face the Nation and 99% of our election talk had nothing to do with policy. BengalHawk tried one (not sure his intentions were pure) and it barely made it to the second page. It ended with folks talking about Trump's looks.

I disagree with the premise of the thread. We discuss the topics Benson listed frequently. How pure are your intentions when you include an unnecessary* dig at another poster?**

* It would only be unnecessary if you wanted to limit the discussion to just the issues which face the nation. If you were interested in just discussing the issues, why did you include that comment?**

** Please excuse the punctuation. I know you dislike questions. 

[fredtoast]

(10-25-2016, 02:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I just cannot see how folks can support an illegal activity. For instance if you are here illegally what is "wrong" with deporting you and take the proper steps for legal immigration? Also those that enabled your illegal activity should be punished.

If the person here "illegally" is working and paying taxes then we are just wasting taxpayer money to deport them.

[fredtoast]

(10-26-2016, 12:45 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Education is second on my list, but we need money to do that, aside from raising taxes, where else can that money come from. That is why I have illegals first.

Why use taxpayer money to deport "illegal" immigrants that are working and paying taxes?

[fredtoast]

(10-25-2016, 06:05 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Everyone is automatically racist/homophobic/islamaphobic/sexist/white supremecist/misogynistic bigots if anyone ever dares to disagree with someone now, it seems.

Funny that you only picked "insults" that are generally only applied to one side of the political spectrum yet use the terms "anyone" and "everyone".

[*bfine32*]

(10-27-2016, 06:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If the person here "illegally" is working and paying taxes then we are just wasting taxpayer money to deport them.

Ok Fred let's start with the ones not paying income taxes.

[GMDino]

(10-27-2016, 07:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Ok Fred let's start with the ones not paying income taxes.

[Rotobeast]

(10-27-2016, 07:09 PM)GMDino Wrote:

He gives out free cooter-buffs, as a public service, in lieu of income taxes.
You hear the young ones complain, but you never hear about all the grannies and such that really appreciate the service.


Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-27-2016, 06:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If the person here "illegally" is working and paying taxes then we are just wasting taxpayer money to deport them.

The only tax an illegal immigrant can pay without violating further laws is sales tax.  They can't be on payroll and collect a check unless they have forged documents, so they don't pay federal income tax or state taxes.  

[fredtoast]

(10-28-2016, 11:11 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The only tax an illegal immigrant can pay without violating further laws is sales tax.  They can't be on payroll and collect a check unless they have forged documents, so they don't pay federal income tax or state taxes.  

This is not true at all.  Immigrants are given Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers (ITIN) and it is estimated that illegal immigrants paid about $11 Billion per year in Federal Income tax.  They pay into FICA even though they will never qualify for the benefits.

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-illegal-immigrants-pay-taxes-2012-3

While the IRS does not have an estimate of how many illegal immigrants pay income tax, it has been issuing ITINs to foreigners without a Social Security number since 1996. Everson told Congress "many illegal aliens, utilizing ITINs, have been reporting tax liability to the tune of almost $50 billion from 1996 to 2003."

Hinkle told the AP that the Social Security and Medicare taxes from mismatched W2s for the same period was $41.4 billion, adding up to about $90 billion in federal taxes during the eight-year period.

These numbers are fairly similar to those that Institute of Taxation and Economic Policy came up with when calculating taxes paid by undocumented immigrants. Their final figure was $11.2 billion in 2010. 




But even the ones who pay not federal income tax still pay a lot in sales tax.  Here where I live sales tax is around 10%, and 40 cents per gallon on gas.  And while there is no sales tax on rent the landlord's property taxes are paid out of the rental income.

So someone working for cash under the table making $25,000 pays well over $2000 in taxes.  A legal worker (single person) making $25,000 would pay about $1700 in federal income tax.  So that is still a net positive in taxes paid.

Then you have to balance the cost of deporting all these people against the cost of allowing them to stay in the country.  And it is hard to find an unbiased analysis of this issue.  One side will inflate the cost of deportation while the other side will inflate the cost of allowing them to stay.

It is a very complicated issue.

[*bfine32*]

(10-28-2016, 11:11 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The only tax an illegal immigrant can pay without violating further laws is sales tax.  They can't be on payroll and collect a check unless they have forged documents, so they don't pay federal income tax or state taxes.  

To some the "pathway to citizenship" is to buy something.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-28-2016, 11:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Correct, but here where I live sales tax is around 10%, and 40 cents per gallon on gas.  And while there is no sales tax on rent the landlord's property taxes are paid out of the rental income.

So someone working for cash under the table making $25,000 pays well over $2000 in taxes.  A legal worker (single person) making $25,000 would pay about $1700 in federal income tax.  So that is still a net positive in taxes paid.

You'd be correct only if the legal resident didn't also pay the exact same taxes in addition to federal and state income taxes.  But they do so you're not.  It's quite simple;

Legal resident pays: Federal income tax, state tax, sales tax, rental income (or property tax if they own a home)

Illegal resident pays: sales tax, rental income

Not a net positive anyway you try and slice it.

Quote:Then you have to balance the cost of deporting all these people against the cost of allowing them to stay in the country.  And it is hard to find an unbiased analysis of this issue.  One side will inflate the cost of deportation while the other side will inflate the cost of allowing them to stay.

It is a very complicated issue.

I agree, mass deportation would be very expensive.  It would also be unnecessary.  Simply prosecute employers who hire illegal workers, aggressively.  Hit them with huge, progressive, fines for every illegal worker for every day they worked.  With no job or means to acquire one people will leave voluntarily.  While I agree that the issue is complicated the means of "deportation", if one chose that route, is absolutely not.

[fredtoast]

(10-28-2016, 12:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You'd be correct only if the legal resident didn't also pay the exact same taxes in addition to federal and state income taxes.  But they do so you're not.  It's quite simple;

Legal resident pays: Federal income tax, state tax, sales tax, rental income (or property tax if they own a home)

Illegal resident pays: sales tax, rental income

Not a net positive anyway you try and slice it.

Actually I have corrected my post to show that illegals do pay federal income tax.

And it is a net positive if they pay more in sales tax than we lose in federal income tax.  Losing 1700 in federal income tax but gaining 2500 in sales tax is a net positive.

Your math is based on the assumption that there would be a legal taxpayer created to replace every illegal who is deported.  It doesn't work that way.

[GMDino]

(10-28-2016, 12:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I agree, mass deportation would be very expensive.  It would also be unnecessary.  Simply prosecute employers who hire illegal workers, aggressively.  Hit them with huge, progressive, fines for every illegal worker for every day they worked.  With no job or means to acquire one people will leave voluntarily.  While I agree that the issue is complicated the means of "deportation", if one chose that route, is absolutely not.

I agree with going after the people using the illegal workers. 

But as to the highlighted part I thought that would just lead to more crime?

[fredtoast]

(10-28-2016, 12:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I agree, mass deportation would be very expensive.  It would also be unnecessary.  Simply prosecute employers who hire illegal workers, aggressively. 

It will cost a lot of money to step up prosecution.  Maybe just as much as stepping up deportation.  They both require the same amount of work i.e. locating and identifying illegal workers.  How do you prove that a lawn service is paying cash to workers when there is no paper trail?

[GMDino]

(10-28-2016, 12:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It will cost a lot of money to step up prosecution.  Maybe just as much as stepping up deportation.  They both require the same amount of work i.e. locating and identifying illegal workers.  How do you prove that a lawn service is paying cash to workers when there is no paper trail?

If we had the willingness to increase spending on the problem we could speed up the process of making them legal citizens and solve a lot more of the problems.

[*wildcats forever*]

(10-28-2016, 12:12 PM)GMDino Wrote: I agree with going after the people using the illegal workers. 

But as to the highlighted part I thought that would just lead to more crime?

There is data to support that more Mexicans are leaving the US than entering (http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/). Offsetting this is the increase of Indian and Chinese immigration, far outpacing recent years of Mexican immigration. 

This caused me to wonder about the total cost of illegal immigration, which according to this: http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-united-states-taxpayers is $113 billion total, $84 billion being at the state and local level, and $29 billion for Federal. One number that jumped out was the $52 billion cost for educating the children of illegal immigrants. This report shows tax receipts of $9.5 billion for Federal, and app. $4 billion for state and local from illegal aliens. 

What I'm looking for now is an accurate report assessing where the holes are in our current law that is preventing getting these numbers under control, and what is being done to improve the situation other than yapping on and on about building a wall.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-28-2016, 12:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually I have corrected my post to show that illegals do pay federal income tax.

And it is a net positive if they pay more in sales tax than we lose in federal income tax.  Losing 1700 in federal income tax but gaining 2500 in sales tax is a net positive.

Your math is based on the assumption that there would be a legal taxpayer created to replace every illegal who is deported.  It doesn't work that way.

Except you forgot to mention that then you're losing the money they spend on things like educating their children, giving them healthcare, paying the salaries of the police/EMT/firefighters/etc who work their neighborhoods, repairing the roads they drive on, etc, etc.

That's why normal citizens pay all that tax, to pay for it. So if you're only getting $2,500 instead of the $4,200 in your example, you're falling short $1,700 that you'll then need to either increase the taxload of your fully paying citizens, reduce the services you offer, or provide insufficient services.


YOUR math is based on the assumption that the tax dollars aren't spent on the illegal immigrants at all, so that anything they provide is a net positive. It doesn't work that way.

[Belsnickel]

(10-28-2016, 02:37 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except you forgot to mention that then you're losing the money they spend on things like educating their children, giving them healthcare, paying the salaries of the police/EMT/firefighters/etc who work their neighborhoods, repairing the roads they drive on, etc, etc.

That's why normal citizens pay all that tax, to pay for it. So if you're only getting $2,500 instead of the $4,200 in your example, you're falling short $1,700 that you'll then need to either increase the taxload of your fully paying citizens, reduce the services you offer, or provide insufficient services.


YOUR math is based on the assumption that the tax dollars aren't spent on the illegal immigrants at all, so that anything they provide is a net positive. It doesn't work that way.

The healthcare is money lost in the private sector. Money spent at the municipal level is generated primarily from property taxes and sales taxes, which they can't avoid. They may not pay the property taxes directly, but they pay them indirectly through their landlords. Money to pay for roads is picked up from vehicle registrations, which they often do pay, just again it is often indirectly, and through gasoline taxes which are unavoidable.

I will say something about an earlier post, though. The whole illegal immigrants having an ITIN is bull shit. More often than not they are using another person's SSN/ITIN to obtain employment and so taxes are being paid in that person's name.