The left doesn't want to take your guns!

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

So, perfect timing for my time on the naughty list.  I've been told numerous times that the anti-gun types (let's be honest, which consists almost entirely of the left) don't want to confiscate our firearms or repeal the 2nd amendment.  Then this happened.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/opinion/john-paul-stevens-repeal-second-amendment.html

During the "March for Our Lives" the following was said by one of the sanctified Parkland kids;

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/delaney-tarr-march-for-our-lives_us_5ab678d8e4b0decad04a5df7

Quote:There are so very many things, so many steps to take. Like right now, sign our petition. It takes two seconds and it matters. We will take the big and we will take the small, but we will keep fighting. When they give us that inch, that bump stock ban, we will take a mile.

We are not here for bread crumbs. We are here for real change.

No slippery slope kids, remember correlation does not equal causation.

The this happened;

http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/380818-larry-king-backs-repealing-second-amendment

Quote:Larry King backs repealing Second Amendment, says it was meant to fight slave uprisings

This is a lie btw.

So do please remember, the "common sense" bans they want should not be opposed by anyone and no one should fear they'd lead to even more restrictions.  



As an aside, what "common sense" gun laws are being demanded?


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2018/mar/23/parkland-students-manifesto-americas-gun-laws

Quote:Ban semi-automatic weapons that fire high-velocity rounds
Civilians shouldn’t have access to the same weapons that soldiers do. That’s a gross misuse of the second amendment.

First off, what constitutes, "high velocity"?  You'd think, since they bothered to mention it, they'd actually define it?  Why not you ask, one can only imagine.

Secondly, we shouldn't have access to the same weapons that soldiers do?  Say goodbye to the following;

M24: Forget that it's bolt action fired with a 5 round internal magazine.  Soldiers use it!  Forget that the 30-06 round that many use for hunting is actually more powerful than the .308 Winchester round of the M24 (technically 7.62mmX51).

Baretta M9:  I know this is a handgun that fires "non-high velocity" 9mm rounds.  However, soldiers use it, it has to go!

Sig P320:  Please see the Baretta M9



I could go on, but the point is made.  Please don't waste our time claiming the ultimate goal isn't confiscation and repeal.  You all got too excited and the mask slipped, a lot.    

[GMDino]

A retired guy and a teenager?  Whew!  Better have that militia ready to go march on D.C.!

[CKwi88]

There are certainly those that wouldn't mind a repeal of the second amendment. I'm sure some would like an Australian-esque reform as well. However, taking the stance of a minority and attributing it to the entirety of broader groups of "the left" and "anti-gun types" in an attempt to mischaracterize those groups is as erroneous as me saying "the right wants to bring back segregation" or "the right wants to expel all immigrants."

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-29-2018, 11:23 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: There are certainly those that wouldn't mind a repeal of the second amendment.

Absolutely.  I've been told that's not an objective by some on this board though.

Quote:I'm sure some would like an Australian-esque reform as well.

Like Hilary Clinton, the 2016 Democratic nominee for POTUS.

Quote:However, taking the stance of a minority and attributing it to the entirety of broader groups of "the left" and "anti-gun types" in an attempt to mischaracterize those groups is as erroneous as me saying "the right wants to bring back segregation" or "the right wants to expel all immigrants."

I don't recall a mass movement to bring back segregation or to expel "all immigrants".  I do see a mass movement that wants to curtail the 2nd amendment rights of US citizens.  You can't have it both ways, this is either a "mass movement" or it's not.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-29-2018, 10:59 PM)GMDino Wrote: A retired guy and a teenager?  Whew!  Better have that militia ready to go march on D.C.!

An old man



and a teenager

[StoneTheCrow]

1. Cops are out here murdering innocent black people!
2. Only cops should have guns!

A. Trump is literally Hitler!
B. They need to outlaw guns!

[*bfine32*]

(03-29-2018, 11:43 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: 1. Cops are out here murdering innocent black people!
2. Only cops should have guns!

A. Trump is literally Hitler!
B. They need to outlaw guns!

Did that make sense in your head?

[StoneTheCrow]

(03-30-2018, 12:14 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Did that make sense in your head?

The more important question is why does it make sense in their heads?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-30-2018, 12:14 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Did that make sense in your head?

He's pointing out the insane contradictions from the anti-gun side.

(03-30-2018, 12:24 AM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: The more important question is why does it make sense in their heads?

Exactly.

[JustWinBaby]

Yes....I LOL

[*michaelsean*]

I'll repeat again, unless this guy was shooting kids from 100 yds out, he could have done the same thing or worse with a .45 and extra magazines which can be switched out in under 5 seconds.

[Belsnickel]

(03-29-2018, 10:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So, perfect timing for my time on the naughty list.  I've been told numerous times that the anti-gun types (let's be honest, which consists almost entirely of the left) don't want to confiscate our firearms or repeal the 2nd amendment.  Then this happened.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/opinion/john-paul-stevens-repeal-second-amendment.html

He has a sound argument in his opinion piece. While I don't agree the Second should be repealed (amended, maybe), I don't see a big problem with his opinion piece.

(03-29-2018, 10:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: During the "March for Our Lives" the following was said by one of the sanctified Parkland kids;

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/delaney-tarr-march-for-our-lives_us_5ab678d8e4b0decad04a5df7

No slippery slope kids, remember correlation does not equal causation.

While I have been one defending the ability for these kids to speak out and allowing them to do so, I've not been one putting a ton of stock into what they have been saying. The argument from the NRA and its allies has been that these are young people that do not have a full understanding of policy and the law, they are emotional because of events, and that because of this their opinions on gun control should not be taken seriously. Are you now suggesting that we should take them seriously and attribute their opinions to that of the entire liberal half of the country?

(03-29-2018, 10:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The this happened;

http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/380818-larry-king-backs-repealing-second-amendment


This is a lie btw.

Is it a lie? Why should I care what Larry King's opinion on this is more than anyone else? Is he an expert on policy? Is he a policy maker? Running for office? In party leadership?

(03-29-2018, 10:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So do please remember, the "common sense" bans they want should not be opposed by anyone and no one should fear they'd lead to even more restrictions.  

As an aside, what "common sense" gun laws are being demanded?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2018/mar/23/parkland-students-manifesto-americas-gun-laws

First off, what constitutes, "high velocity"?  You'd think, since they bothered to mention it, they'd actually define it?  Why not you ask, one can only imagine.

Secondly, we shouldn't have access to the same weapons that soldiers do?  Say goodbye to the following;

M24: Forget that it's bolt action fired with a 5 round internal magazine.  Soldiers use it!  Forget that the 30-06 round that many use for hunting is actually more powerful than the .308 Winchester round of the M24 (technically 7.62mmX51).

Baretta M9:  I know this is a handgun that fires "non-high velocity" 9mm rounds.  However, soldiers use it, it has to go!

Sig P320:  Please see the Baretta M9

You and I have discussed the ignorance of many people, including adults when it comes to their attempts to look at things like these. But I wouldn't consider what you quoted there as what people discuss when they say "common sense gun laws." By the article's own title, this is a manifesto from the Parkland students, so see my Parkland commentary above.

(03-29-2018, 10:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I could go on, but the point is made.  Please don't waste our time claiming the ultimate goal isn't confiscation and repeal.  You all got too excited and the mask slipped, a lot.    

As has been pointed out, you are ascribing what has been said by a minority to the whole liberal base. I can guarantee you that what is being presented here would not get support by most of the liberal base. When people talk about the "coastal elite" bubble of liberalism, this is the group they are talking about (though Stevens is a difficult read politically, since he refuses to talk politics). But that's not even the majority, that is just who tends to talk the most.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-30-2018, 09:08 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I'll repeat again, unless this guy was shooting kids from 100 yds out, he could have done the same thing or worse with a .45 and extra magazines which can be switched out in under 5 seconds.

Sure, but to me that's immaterial.  The fact that so few people are killed with long guns of any kind, much less "assaulty weapons", means arguments to ban them are inane.

(03-30-2018, 09:26 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: He has a sound argument in his opinion piece. While I don't agree the Second should be repealed (amended, maybe), I don't see a big problem with his opinion piece.

The argument being sound or not is not the issue, the fact that he's advocating for what gun owners have long suspected the anti-gun side wants, is.  As I said, they got over excited and let the mask slip.  Bad move on their part.

Quote:While I have been one defending the ability for these kids to speak out and allowing them to do so, I've not been one putting a ton of stock into what they have been saying. The argument from the NRA and its allies has been that these are young people that do not have a full understanding of policy and the law, they are emotional because of events, and that because of this their opinions on gun control should not be taken seriously. Are you now suggesting that we should take them seriously and attribute their opinions to that of the entire liberal half of the country?

I don't take them seriously at all.  I remember how ill informed I was at that age and how much I didn't even realize I didn't know.  But whether you or I take them seriously is not the point, the fact that so many others do is the point.  The anti-gun side has painted themselves into a corner with these kids.  On one hand they claim extraordinary moral high ground with them and claim they are the figureheads of a huge movement.  On the other hand they have to contend with the inevitable missteps these kids will make in the public arena.  You can't simultaneously ascribe near sainthood on these kids and then dismiss their comments as the words of children when they put their foot in their mouths.

Quote:Is it a lie? Why should I care what Larry King's opinion on this is more than anyone else? Is he an expert on policy? Is he a policy maker? Running for office? In party leadership?

You're much smarter than this, Matt.  We've reached the point were celebrities are openly calling for repeal of the 2nd.  I'll reiterate the above point, you can't use celebrities to make political points, which the left does consistently, and then dismiss them when they make a point that is less than politically expedient.

Quote:You and I have discussed the ignorance of many people, including adults when it comes to their attempts to look at things like these. But I wouldn't consider what you quoted there as what people discuss when they say "common sense gun laws." By the article's own title, this is a manifesto from the Parkland students, so see my Parkland commentary above.

And please again refer to my response.  Either these kids are your figurehead or they aren't.  The anti-gun types shackled their wagon to these horses, they can't complain about where the horses lead them.  When one of them openly states that "you give us an inch we'll taker a mile" it only confirms what gun owners have long claimed, that they should surrender no ground and never compromise.  Who knew using teenagers as your spokespeople would have drawbacks?

Quote:As has been pointed out, you are ascribing what has been said by a minority to the whole liberal base. I can guarantee you that what is being presented here would not get support by most of the liberal base. When people talk about the "coastal elite" bubble of liberalism, this is the group they are talking about (though Stevens is a difficult read politically, since he refuses to talk politics). But that's not even the majority, that is just who tends to talk the most.

Ahh, here's the crux of it, and why the Democratic party is scrambling on this issue now.  Outside the coastal bubbles gun ownership is a hot button issue, gun owners vote.  The Dems are now seeing any hope of a "blue wave" crash well short of shore as they have, inadvertently, made gun control the cause de celebre of the mid term elections.  The media propped these kids up as avatars of change, the Democratic party held them up as the crest of a wave.  They got the anti-gun side excited and they predictably overreached.  

These arguments don't resonate with you because you're a rational person who doesn't let celebrity or mob opinion sway you.  Unfortunately, many people are immensely susceptible to this.

[GMDino]

(03-29-2018, 11:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: An old man



and a teenager

An elected official vs a retired SCJ.

And yes, a teenager.

[Belsnickel]

(03-30-2018, 09:42 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't take them seriously at all.  I remember how ill informed I was at that age and how much I didn't even realize I didn't know.  But whether you or I take them seriously is not the point, the fact that so many others do is the point.  The anti-gun side has painted themselves into a corner with these kids.  On one hand they claim extraordinary moral high ground with them and claim they are the figureheads of a huge movement.  On the other hand they have to contend with the inevitable missteps these kids will make in the public arena.  You can't simultaneously ascribe near sainthood on these kids and then dismiss their comments as the words of children when they put their foot in their mouths.

...

And please again refer to my response. Either these kids are your figurehead or they aren't. The anti-gun types shackled their wagon to these horses, they can't complain about where the horses lead them. When one of them openly states that "you give us an inch we'll taker a mile" it only confirms what gun owners have long claimed, that they should surrender no ground and never compromise. Who knew using teenagers as your spokespeople would have drawbacks?

I see these kids right now as figureheads of an anti-gun movement, but not of the liberal base. Those are two different things. This is a single issue group that is going to force gun control to be discusses during the mid-terms, I have no doubt, but they aren't the figureheads of the left.

(03-30-2018, 09:42 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're much smarter than this, Matt.  We've reached the point were celebrities are openly calling for repeal of the 2nd.  I'll reiterate the above point, you can't use celebrities to make political points, which the left does consistently, and then dismiss them when they make a point that is less than politically expedient.

Maybe I underestimate the celebrity issue because I don't dive into pop culture much nor care what celebrities have to say. I just still maintain I don't care what he has to say on the issue.

(03-30-2018, 09:42 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Ahh, here's the crux of it, and why the Democratic party is scrambling on this issue now.  Outside the coastal bubbles gun ownership is a hot button issue, gun owners vote.  The Dems are now seeing any hope of a "blue wave" crash well short of shore as they have, inadvertently, made gun control the cause de celebre of the mid term elections.  The media propped these kids up as avatars of change, the Democratic party held them up as the crest of a wave.  They got the anti-gun side excited and they predictably overreached.  

These arguments don't resonate with you because you're a rational person who doesn't let celebrity or mob opinion sway you.  Unfortunately, many people are immensely susceptible to this.

I said it above, but I'll get into it again here a bit more. Yes, these kids and this event are going to force gun control to be a talking point in the election cycle. I don't see it going as far as they are going to want it, though. Their media attention will wane and cooler heads will prevail. This is just in time for primary season, which is usually when folks run to the edges, but by the time general elections come around, everyone will be taking more modest approaches.

If I were a political operative, I would be directing the DCCC, DLCC, and DSCC to tell candidates to focus on an economic message. It's what the people want right now, and you can bring into the fold the fact that the one thing that has the highest correlation to gun violence rates in this country is poverty. The higher the poverty rate, the higher the gun violence rate in a community.

But nobody wants opinions from wonks when it comes to political messaging.

[hollodero]

So many people using these kids for their purpose, in one way or another.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-30-2018, 10:06 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I see these kids right now as figureheads of an anti-gun movement, but not of the liberal base. Those are two different things. This is a single issue group that is going to force gun control to be discusses during the mid-terms, I have no doubt, but they aren't the figureheads of the left.

I think you're a bit out of step with the general consensus on this subject.  Also, I don't think the entire left wants gun control, but the gun control side is definitely predominated by left leaning people.

Quote:Maybe I underestimate the celebrity issue because I don't dive into pop culture much nor care what celebrities have to say. I just still maintain I don't care what he has to say on the issue.

In a sense you're falling victim to your own bubble here.  These kids are everywhere, they're on CNN every other hour (intentional exaggeration for the obtuse amongst us).  They're ubiquitous at this point.  In addition look at all the Democratic lawmakers who attended the rally.  Elizabeth Warren, Sen. Bill Warren of FL, Sen. Chris Van Hollen from MD were all at the DC rally.  This doesn't mention others as well as politicians who attended at other locations like eternal gun grabber Blumenthal or the support from Obama and his wife.  You show up at a political rally, or lend it your support, you are tied to the claims made at it. 

Quote:I said it above, but I'll get into it again here a bit more. Yes, these kids and this event are going to force gun control to be a talking point in the election cycle. I don't see it going as far as they are going to want it, though. Their media attention will wane and cooler heads will prevail. This is just in time for primary season, which is usually when folks run to the edges, but by the time general elections come around, everyone will be taking more modest approaches.

I don't see them getting anything more at this point, they completely overplayed their hand.  What they get isn't my point though, what they want, is.  We've heard for years that "no one is trying to take away your guns".  This was proven demonstrably false and the Dems are now crapping their pants because they know this will bring a wave of GOP, or just pro-gun owner, voters to the polls this year that otherwise may very well have stayed home.  You're focusing too much on what's liable to happen right now as opposed to what the demonstrated end game for the anti-gun movement is.

Quote:If I were a political operative, I would be directing the DCCC, DLCC, and DSCC to tell candidates to focus on an economic message. It's what the people want right now, and you can bring into the fold the fact that the one thing that has the highest correlation to gun violence rates in this country is poverty. The higher the poverty rate, the higher the gun violence rate in a community.

A smart move to be sure, although I'm not sure how much an economic message will resonate unless the economy takes a dump.  The general perception is that we're doing well and I think Trump has some high ground on this issue with the tax cuts.  If I'm a GOP advisor I'm telling them to bring the "repeal the 2nd Amendment" argument and the "give us an inch and we'll take a mile" up at every opportunity.  Lindsey Graham has already latched on to this, challenging every single Democrat in Congress to go on record as to whether they want to repeal the 2nd.  The genie is out of the bottle on this one and for the Dems to do any sort of damage control they will have to sell out the Parkland kids to do it.  They put a lot of political stock in the movement these kids spawned and now it's going to backfire big time.

Quote:But nobody wants opinions from wonks when it comes to political messaging.

Smart and informed people do, but they are an unfortunate minority. 

[Millhouse]

I wonder how many of those people that want to repeal the 2nd amendment and get rid of legal guns are also against more border security and a wall? Because last I checked almost 1/3 of the world's homicides happen south of us in Latin America, while quite a few illegal guns make across the border and shipped into our ports.

[Dill]

(03-30-2018, 09:26 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: As has been pointed out, you are ascribing what has been said by a minority to the whole liberal base. I can guarantee you that what is being presented here would not get support by most of the liberal base. When people talk about the "coastal elite" bubble of liberalism, this is the group they are talking about (though Stevens is a difficult read politically, since he refuses to talk politics). But that's not even the majority, that is just who tends to talk the most.

(03-29-2018, 11:23 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: There are certainly those that wouldn't mind a repeal of the second amendment. I'm sure some would like an Australian-esque reform as well. However, taking the stance of a minority and attributing it to the entirety of broader groups of "the left" and "anti-gun types" in an attempt to mischaracterize those groups is as erroneous as me saying "the right wants to bring back segregation" or "the right wants to expel all immigrants."

Well said, gentlemen.

[NATI BENGALS]

Or Instead of being hyper partisan and using talking points like this is a campaign ad you can realize there are very dumb things said on both sides. Like the prez actually saying he wants to take guns away from people without judicial approval.

There is a middle ground. And not all dems are anti 2nd.

And an assault rifle is a better killing machine than a hand gun