The long Western legacy of violence against Asian Americans

[Dill]

(03-16-2021, 11:46 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:   The minute you start ignoring unpalatable evidence is the moment you stop trying to seek true answers, 

Indeed.  We'll see if this desire gets applied evenly.

I think "even application" is implicated in the principle, isn't it? 

Once we are not applying it "evenly," then we are not applying it at all.

In addition to the principle you stated, I'd like to add another:

Unsupported claims cannot be evidence.

E.g., One-liners like "No it's not!" should count as ignoring unpalatable evidence, not as acknowledging and responding to it. 

If unsupported claims were to count, then the whole point of adducing, acknowledging and responding to evidence would be vitiated. 

If you agree, perhaps we can get the whole forum on board with us. Our arguments will be more likely to stay
focused on thread topics, less likely to become about fellow posters. 

In the context of this thread, you've made an interesting claim--not all racism comes from whites. 
I haven't read every post, but I don't think anyone has disputed this.  

If I have understood your posts so far, you affirm that we must be able to accurately describe and understand a problem in order to solve it. That means in this case, at least in part, that we should see racism as a general phenomenon, not limited to any race. 

So how does the insight that racism is not limited to any race help us understand the violence against Asians seen in Dino's post? E.g., if we agree there has been a rise in violence against Asians, and we can find 1) separate cases in which the perpetrators have been Latino, African-American, and White, and 2) in each of these cases there is no mistake about the racial character of the attack (e.g., because the perp used racial slurs), then in your view, what is the next step in determining the cause of the attacks, or more specifically, the rise in attacks?  

I.e., If we are already recognizing that racism is not limited to whites, then what is the next thing we should be looking for here?

[*michaelsean*]

(03-16-2021, 01:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Speaking in generalities, there is a lot of resentment toward Asians in lower income areas.  They are perceived as interlopers, opening businesses that should be run by the locals.  Of course, this ignores the fact that they own these businesses because they work their ass off, working 16+ hours a day and often sleeping in the shop.  But that kind of hatred and resentment doesn't rely on logic or common sense.  Anecdotally, I see this all the damned time.  It's also directed at others, such as Indians or Middle Easterners.  I do wonder if the OP includes them as Asians, which they technically are, but in the US at least the term is generally used to describe what would have in the past be referred to as "Orientals".

Refresh my memory, but weren’t Korean owned stores particularly targeted during the King riots? It seems I remember that.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-16-2021, 01:09 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Refresh my memory, but weren’t Korean owned stores particularly targeted during the King riots?  It seems I remember that.

Yes and no.  They were targeted but their willingness to fight back, e.g. sit on the roof of their business with rifles, led to a lower rate of victimization.  The revisionist historians are now trying to down play that, big time, but I was here for it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-16-2021, 01:05 PM)Dill Wrote: I think "even application" is implicated in the principle, isn't it?

One would certainly think so.  It's sad how often that doesn't happen. 

Quote:Once we are not applying it "evenly," then we are not applying it at all.

I'll let you know when that starts happening then. 

[Dill]

(03-16-2021, 01:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: One would certainly think so.  It's sad how often that doesn't happen. 

I'll let you know when that starts happening then. 

Meantime, 

how does the insight that racism is not limited to any race help us understand the violence against Asians seen in Dino's post? E.g., if we agree there has been a rise in violence against Asians, and we can find 1) separate cases in which the perpetrators have been Latino, African-American, and White, and 2) in each of these cases there is no mistake about the racial character of the attack (e.g., because the perp used racial slurs), then in your view, what is the next step in determining the cause of the attacks, or more specifically, the rise in attacks?  

Could there be some change in the information environment which triggered already existing prejudice?

(03-16-2021, 01:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes and no.  They were targeted but their willingness to fight back, e.g. sit on the roof of their business with rifles, led to a lower rate of victimization.  The revisionist historians are now trying to down play that, big time, but I was here for it.

Curious--are you saying the "revision" is about the use of rifles for protection or that Koreans were targeted.

If I wanted to find out about the revision, where would I look. E.g., which historians or what books/articles should I be looking for?

[Dill]

(03-16-2021, 12:22 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I think as a highly successful minority yes. By lower middle class people in the majority and other minorities. Very few act on these jealousies, but enough would to notice. Just a theory.

LOL a qualification--success does draw "violence" in the sense successful people of all stripes may be more attractive to robbers.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-16-2021, 03:51 PM)Dill Wrote: Meantime, 

how does the insight that racism is not limited to any race help us understand the violence against Asians seen in Dino's post? E.g., if we agree there has been a rise in violence against Asians, and we can find 1) separate cases in which the perpetrators have been Latino, African-American, and White, and 2) in each of these cases there is no mistake about the racial character of the attack (e.g., because the perp used racial slurs), then in your view, what is the next step in determining the cause of the attacks, or more specifically, the rise in attacks?

[color]

A start would be acknowledging the different ethnicities of these attackers instead of trying to paint this as a white person only issue.  As has already been stated, when the media talks about "the West" they mean people of European ancestry.  Also, in OP, they took pains to mention the ethnicity of the attacker when they were white, and clearly omitted them (deliberately?) when they were not.[/color]

Quote:Could there be some change in the information environment which triggered already existing prejudice?

Could you ask a straightforward question?  Do you really think there are a lot of black and Hispanic people hanging on Trump's every word or responding to him?  Even if so, we are all responsible for our own actions, so understanding why these individuals decided it was ok to attack Asian people, in some cases multiple times by the same offender.  

Quote:Curious--are you saying the "revision" is about the use of rifles for protection or that Koreans were targeted.

Quote:If I wanted to find out about the revision, where would I look. E.g., which historians or what books/articles should I be looking for?

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/how-we-rise/2021/03/11/why-the-trope-of-black-asian-conflict-in-the-face-of-anti-asian-violence-dismisses-solidarity/

The Trope of Black-Asian Conflict



These senseless acts of anti-Asian violence have finally garnered the national attention they deserve, but they have also invoked anti-Black sentiment and reignited the trope of Black-Asian conflict. Because some of the video-taped perpetrators appear to have been Black, some observers immediately reduced anti-Asian violence to Black-Asian conflict. This is not the first time that the trope has been weaponized. Black-Asian conflict—and Black-Korean conflict more specifically—became the popular frame of the LA riots in 1992.



The trope failed to capture the reality of Black-Korean relations three decades ago, and it fails to capture the reality of anti-Asian bias today. A recent study finds that in fact, Christian nationalism is the strongest predictor of xenophobic views of COVID-19, and the effect of Christian nationalism is greater among white respondents, compared to Black respondents. Moreover, Black Americans have also experienced high levels of racial discrimination since the pandemic began. Hence, not only does the frame of two minoritized groups in conflict ignore the role of white national populism, but it also absolves the history and systems of inequality that positioned them there.



As underlined, and expected, it's really about white supremacy people!  There isn't an eyerolling emoji of sufficient power to respond to this.  

[fredtoast]

(03-16-2021, 04:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/how-we-rise/2021/03/11/why-the-trope-of-black-asian-conflict-in-the-face-of-anti-asian-violence-dismisses-solidarity/

The Trope of Black-Asian Conflict


The trope failed to capture the reality of Black-Korean relations three decades ago, and it fails to capture the reality of anti-Asian bias today. A recent study finds that in fact, Christian nationalism is the strongest predictor of xenophobic views of COVID-19, and the effect of Christian nationalism is greater among white respondents, compared to Black respondents. Moreover, Black Americans have also experienced high levels of racial discrimination since the pandemic began. Hence, not only does the frame of two minoritized groups in conflict ignore the role of white national populism, but it also absolves the history and systems of inequality that positioned them there.
 

This is pretty epic even by SSF standards.

He starts of squealing about how everyone is trying to act the perpetrators are mostly white.  

Now he posts a link explaining why most of the increase in violence towards Asians is due to white people.

[Dill]

(03-16-2021, 04:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dill Wrote: how does the insight that racism is not limited to any race help us understand the violence against Asians seen in Dino's post? E.g., if we agree there has been a rise in violence against Asians, and we can find 1) separate cases in which the perpetrators have been Latino, African-American, and White, and 2) in each of these cases there is no mistake about the racial character of the attack (e.g., because the perp used racial slurs), then in your view, what is the next step in determining the cause of the attacks, or more specifically, the rise in attacks?

A start would be acknowledging the different ethnicities of these attackers instead of trying to paint this as a white person only issue.  As has already been stated, when the media talks about "the West" they mean people of European ancestry.  Also, in OP, they took pains to mention the ethnicity of the attacker when they were white, and clearly omitted them (deliberately?) when they were not.

My question assumes recognition of attacks from different ethnicities, which have some marker of racial motivation (as opposed to a random robbery or altercation after a fender bender). It asks what is the next step, then, in determining the cause of a rise in violence? If there is one, then maybe checking stats is a start. The FBI does has not readied stats for 2020 yet, so we have to rely on other sources, like Stop AAHI Hate, which collect volunteered reports and monitor the news. They report some 3,000 attacks between March 2020 and Feb. 2021, compared to 100 in the preceding time frame.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/03/11/asian-american-hate-incidents-target-new-legislation-congress/6937841002/

One study from April 2020, maybe to early to be useful here, could NOT find that the pandemic had increased xenophobic behavior to Asians, at least as measured in surveys (not violence) 
Does Pandemic Threat Stoke Xenophobia? https://as.nyu.edu/content/dam/nyu-as/populationCenter/documents/Has%20Pandemic%20Threat%20Stoked%20Xenophobia%20aggregate%2012%202%202020%20w%20cover%20page.pdf

(03-16-2021, 04:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:Could there be some change in the information environment which triggered already existing prejudice?

Could you ask a straightforward question?  Do you really think there are a lot of black and Hispanic people hanging on Trump's every word or responding to him?  Even if so, we are all responsible for our own actions, so understanding why these individuals decided it was ok to attack Asian people, in some cases multiple times by the same offender. 

The question is about as straightforward as it can be, without assuming the answer from the get go. I can refine it a bit, though.

If "we are all responsible for our own actions," then why have more individuals been responsible for racist attacks against Asians this year than in the first quarter of 2019 or 2020? 

The answer cannot be a generalized abstraction, like "racism," since that was already there in 2019 and 2018. Something more time- and environment-specific is needed. It is also possible the attacks are genuinely random, like a June snowstorm. We could even start with that as a null-hypothesis (i.e., if we investigate, we'll find no causal pattern beyond those already existing).

Since some Dem lawmakers want to introduce a bill addressing the problem, they should take your point to heart--namely that we need to understand causes if we hope to address them effectively.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-16-2021, 06:43 PM)Dill Wrote: My question assumes recognition of attacks from different ethnicities, which have some marker of racial motivation (as opposed to a random robbery or altercation after a fender bender). It asks what is the next step, then, in determining the cause of a rise in violence? If there is one, then maybe checking stats is a start. The FBI does has not readied stats for 2020 yet, so we have to rely on other sources, like Stop AAHI Hate, which collect volunteered reports and monitor the news. They report some 3,000 attacks between March 2020 and Feb. 2021, compared to 100 in the preceding time frame.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/03/11/asian-american-hate-incidents-target-new-legislation-congress/6937841002/

One study from April 2020, maybe to early to be useful here, could NOT find that the pandemic had increased xenophobic behavior to Asians, at least as measured in surveys (not violence) 
Does Pandemic Threat Stoke Xenophobia?  https://as.nyu.edu/content/dam/nyu-as/populationCenter/documents/Has%20Pandemic%20Threat%20Stoked%20Xenophobia%20aggregate%2012%202%202020%20w%20cover%20page.pdf

We're talking about a relatively low number, we don't need to wait on the FBI to determine basic facts like this.  A great question to ask would be, why hasn't this already been done?

Quote:The question is about as straightforward as it can be, without assuming the answer from the get go. I can refine it a bit, though.

If "we are all responsible for our own actions," then why have more individuals been responsible for racist attacks against Asians this year than in the first quarter of 2019 or 2020? 

Likely a myriad of reasons.  As stated before racism towards Asians has always been prevalent in some communities.  Seeing as how the virus originated, indisputably, from China and China certainly aided in it's spread by its complete lack of transparency I don't know that some people, already so inclined, would need any more justification for their violence or hate.  Now, if, as you heavily allude to, Trump is solely, or mostly, to blame then why would so many of the attacks be carried out by communities in which Trump holds little to no sway?

Quote:The answer cannot be a generalized abstraction, like "racism," since that was already there in 2019 and 2018. Something more time- and environment-specific is needed. It is also possible the attacks are genuinely random, like a June snowstorm. We could even start with that as a null-hypothesis (i.e., if we investigate, we'll find no causal pattern beyond those already existing).

Sure it can.  Do you not think racist attacks increase after a particularly negative news piece featuring an act by a person of a certain race?  Do I think it's solely caused by this, absolutely not, but you absolutely cannot discount it as you just attempt to definitively do.

Quote:Since some Dem lawmakers want to introduce a bill addressing the problem, they should take your point to heart--namely that we need to understand causes if we hope to address them effectively.

Hate crime laws are already on the books, so I don't know what further legislation would be needed, or warranted to prosecute these crimes.  What would such "solutions" even look like?  

[Dill]

(03-16-2021, 04:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes and no.  They were targeted but their willingness to fight back, e.g. sit on the roof of their business with rifles, led to a lower rate of victimization.  The revisionist historians are now trying to down play that, big time, but I was here for it.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/how-we-rise/2021/03/11/why-the-trope-of-black-asian-conflict-in-the-face-of-anti-asian-violence-dismisses-solidarity/

The Trope of Black-Asian Conflict

These senseless acts of anti-Asian violence have finally garnered the national attention they deserve, but they have also invoked anti-Black sentiment and reignited the trope of Black-Asian conflict. Because some of the video-taped perpetrators appear to have been Black, some observers immediately reduced anti-Asian violence to Black-Asian conflict. This is not the first time that the trope has been weaponized. Black-Asian conflict—and Black-Korean conflict more specifically—became the popular frame of the LA riots in 1992.

The trope failed to capture the reality of Black-Korean relations three decades ago, and it fails to capture the reality of anti-Asian bias today. A recent study finds that in fact, Christian nationalism is the strongest predictor of xenophobic views of COVID-19, and the effect of Christian nationalism is greater among white respondents, compared to Black respondents. Moreover, Black Americans have also experienced high levels of racial discrimination since the pandemic began. Hence, not only does the frame of two minoritized groups in conflict ignore the role of white national populism, but it also absolves the history and systems of inequality that positioned them there.

As underlined, and expected, it's really about white supremacy people!  There isn't an eyerolling emoji of sufficient power to respond to this.  

Jennifer Lee and Tiffany Huang are sociologists, not historians.

The point of the article, as far as I could tell, was to counter some unspecified news portrayals of violence against Asians framed to suggest a renewal of Black-Korean tensions often portrayed in popular culture, like Spike Lee's film Do the Right Thing.

No one is disputing that Koreans may have been targeted during the LA riots and "fought back."

Jennifer Lee has evidently done a lot of fieldwork with Korean business owners in minority communities in New York and Philadelphia. She seems to think that violence and mutual blame is not a serious problem between Koreans and Blacks in the U.S. She also does not want Asians to start reflexively targeting Blacks because some may be among the perpetrators. 

Finally, the term she uses is "white national populism," not "white supremacy," though the latter may be driving some or much of the former, she identifies the aforesaid populism as likely a greater danger to Asian-American safety.

Is there a reason to suppose she is wrong suggest that Koreans and Blacks generally get along and that the more general sources of xenophobia pose the greater danger?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-16-2021, 06:58 PM)Dill Wrote: Jennifer Lee and Tiffany Huang are sociologists, not historians.

Oh yeah, only historians can engage in revisionist history. 

Quote:The point of the article, as far as I could tell, was to counter some unspecified news portrayals of violence against Asians framed to suggest a renewal of Black-Korean tensions often portrayed in popular culture, like Spike Lee's film Do the Right Thing.

No one is disputing that Koreans may have been targeted during the LA riots and "fought back."

To an extent, yes they are, and the reasons for it are now apparently mutable as well.

Quote:Jennifer Lee has evidently done a lot of fieldwork with Korean business owners in minority communities in New York and Philadelphia. She seems to think that violence and mutual blame is not a serious problem between Koreans and Blacks in the U.S. She also does not want Asians to start reflexively targeting Blacks because some may be among the perpetrators. 

There's pretty much zero danger of the latter happening.  I can't tell you how many criminals I've dealt with who stated they target Asians because they are "weaker" and "less likely to fight back".  Maybe Ms. Lee missed all of those guys in her studies?

Quote:Finally, the term she uses is "white national populism," not "white supremacy," though the latter may be driving some or much of the former, she identifies the aforesaid populism as likely a greater danger to Asian-American safety.

Of course she does, because apparently white supremacy is responsible for everything bad throughout human history.  You'll do please forgive me for not buying into her glomming on the current trend.  

Quote:Is there a reason to suppose she is wrong suggest that Koreans and Blacks generally get along and that the more general sources of xenophobia pose the greater danger?

Only if you suppose that blacks are less susceptible to said xenophobia than other ethnicities.  Also, what does that mean "generally get along"?  Most human beings "generally get along".  It's a very small percentage of people who engage in the kind of behavior in OP.  Hence my surprise that we're provided with so little data about it.

[Dill]

(03-16-2021, 06:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:The question is about as straightforward as it can be, without assuming the answer from the get go. I can refine it a bit, though.

If "we are all responsible for our own actions," then why have more individuals been responsible for racist attacks against Asians this year than in the first quarter of 2019 or 2020?

Likely a myriad of reasons.  As stated before racism towards Asians has always been prevalent in some communities.  Seeing as how the virus originated, indisputably, from China and China certainly aided in it's spread by its complete lack of transparency I don't know that some people, already so inclined, would need any more justification for their violence or hate.  Now, if, as you heavily allude to, Trump is solely, or mostly, to blame then why would so many of the attacks be carried out by communities in which Trump holds little to no sway?

The second time you have mentioned Trump. I have not mentioned him at all.  I posited a null hypothesis in which the rise in attacks is random. If we were to approach the issue like social scientists, we'd need to show why the attacks cannot be explained as a random surge of the "usual" causes.

Without help from Trump, enough people stopped drinking "Corona" Beer to hurt the company's profit margins. So I think you are indeed correct to ask if just the word "China" might move to enough people (of all races),  and with a similar susceptibility to random connotation, to anti-Asian violence.

One step, perhaps the next, would be to interview as many perps as possible. Or read whatever statements they made to police and press.

I should also add that I am not sure where all these attacks are being carried out. But certainly some of them are by white people, and it seems possible that they have been listening to Trump. Not something to rule out before hearing the perps own reasons, if offered. Also, I would never assume that because a person was Latino or Black that he did not listen to Trump--especially if a xenophobic person committing acts of violence against Asians. But assuming connections to Trump before any can be demonstrated is not definitely NOT the next step.

(03-16-2021, 06:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:The answer cannot be a generalized abstraction, like "racism," since that was already there in 2019 and 2018. Something more time- and environment-specific is needed. It is also possible the attacks are genuinely random, like a June snowstorm. We could even start with that as a null-hypothesis (i.e., if we investigate, we'll find no causal pattern beyond those already existing).

Sure it can.  Do you not think racist attacks increase after a particularly negative news piece featuring an act by a person of a certain race?  Do I think it's solely caused by this, absolutely not, but you absolutely cannot discount it as you just attempt to definitively do.

Hate crime laws are already on the books, so I don't know what further legislation would be needed, or warranted to prosecute these crimes.  What would such "solutions" even look like?  

Saying "racism" is the cause of the anti-Asian violence is like saying "disease" is he cause of the spreading pandemic. People who want to stop the spread of the violence or the pandemic need more specific causes, which can direct research and prevention efforts.

Couldn't follow your second statement, so I am not sure what you think I am "definitively" discounting. If you think I am discounting "racism" as one factor enabling some individuals to target Asians, you are wrong. Racism may be a necessary, but not sufficient cause in this case.

If we are thinking simply of "prosecuting crimes" then probably the laws we have are good enough. I think the purpose of the legislation I alluded to was to prevent more anti-Asian violence. Laws on the books aren't doing that.  We can't know what "solutions would look like" in this case until we get a clearer picture of causes.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-16-2021, 07:28 PM)Dill Wrote: The second time you have mentioned Trump. I have not mentioned him at all.  

And we're done here.  

[*michaelsean*]

(03-16-2021, 01:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes and no.  They were targeted but their willingness to fight back, e.g. sit on the roof of their business with rifles, led to a lower rate of victimization.  The revisionist historians are now trying to down play that, big time, but I was here for it.

Oh I remember that now that you mention it.

[Arturo Bandini]

Well, what happened in Atlanta is somehow giving some credits to this thread ...


https://twitter.com/PuddingVladdy/status/1372138560556576771/photo/1

Where this guy got these ideas ?

[GMDino]

(03-17-2021, 11:09 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Well, what happened in Atlanta is somehow giving some credits to this thread ...

Just was reading about it.  They haven't given a motive or said it was a hate crime yet but it sure was a specific set of locations and victims.

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-17-2021, 11:11 AM)GMDino Wrote: Just was reading about it.  They haven't given a motive or said it was a hate crime yet but it sure was a specific set of locations and victims.

https://twitter.com/PuddingVladdy/status/1372138560556576771/photo/1

Weirdly they arrested him, they didn't feel for their life during the arrestation and they didn't spend 10 minutes with a knee on his carotide ...

I don't know if they got the dude to Burger King that time though ...

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-17-2021, 11:20 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: https://twitter.com/PuddingVladdy/status/1372138560556576771/photo/1

Weirdly they arrested him, they didn't feel for their life during the arrestation and they didn't spend 10 minutes with a knee on his carotide ...

I don't know if they got the dude to Burger King that time though ...

I loathe bullshit takes like this.  You have zero idea, less than zero idea, of the circumstances of either this arrest of the Roof arrest.  The vast majority of murder suspects are arrested without the use of deadly force, or any force for that matter.  As for the Burger King comment, which is perpetuate ad nauseum by the uninformed, look up interrogation techniques and establishing rapport.  They didn't buy him Burger King because they liked him or felt sorry for him.

[GMDino]

(03-17-2021, 11:20 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: https://twitter.com/PuddingVladdy/status/1372138560556576771/photo/1

Weirdly they arrested him, they didn't feel for their life during the arrestation and they didn't spend 10 minutes with a knee on his carotide ...

I don't know if they got the dude to Burger King that time though ...

It was only have a three hour chase.    

All seriousness aside I'm glad when the suspect isn't dead before they are arrested and charged no matter their race or crime.