(03-17-2021, 12:57 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Nope, I'm done because you're arguing from a disingenuous position now, specifically what you stated that I responded to being done. Of course, you don't "see it", but it's rather obvious. You're slowly morphing into Fred part 2. Believe what you want though, you do regardless of what you're presented anyways.
LOL the second Fred-herring in three days--but would Fred dodge "unpalatable evidence" and then claim the guy who presents it is the "disingenuous" one who "believes what he wants, regardless"? I think not.
Before I responded to your 2nd interjection of Trump, what possible statement of mine could you adduce to support your claim that I "heavily allude. . . Trump is solely or mostly to blame"* for rising violence against Asians? If my "posting history" is your fallback, then the claim is pure projection.
And it looks like that's how you went into Lee and Huang's essay--already knowing/projecting what was there. Just a matter of replacing their terms with yours to prove it.
It is logically and ethically inconsistent to appeal to standards of meeting evidence in one post and then to dodge that standard in another by imputing character flaws to someone presenting such evidence. Time to end the rinse and repeat cycle.
*Hollo is perhaps your culprit here. See his post # 29.
In the 19th century, white colonizers moved Westward, propelled by a vision of manifest destiny and seizing land from the original Native inhabitants. But it was Asian workers who built the infrastructure crucial to the West’s economic growth: railroads, farms, mines, canals.
Is it possible that references to "the West" here just mean the U.S. West, cowboys and stuff? E.g., the author does not say the "railroads, farms, mines, canals" of "Western Civilization" or "Western Culture."
"White" not Black or Latino, colonizers are referenced. Some historical bits . . .
. . . owing to a 1854 California Supreme Court decision, Asians were not allowed to testify in court. “Whites could practice violence on communities of color without consequence,” says Jason Oliver Chang, a historian at the University of Connecticut. “It’s a signal to the larger community about who belongs, and who faces consequences.”
This seems to make anti-Asian racism all about whites. I am guessing that is because the Chinese in question did not have the power to control the laws in their favor.
Also,
As the conversation turns toward addressing anti-Asian hate, many Asian Americans are forced to grapple with the larger question of race in the U.S., including racism within Asian communities. Last year vividly illuminated racism’s role in police killings and coronavirus inequities. “It’s so important to think about this violence not as perpetrated as lone individuals,” Man* said. “It’s not exceptional. It’s a symptom of a violence that is also impacting other racialized people and BIPOC communities.”
Looks like a recognition that "All sides do it."
Seems these historian types are always seeking to understand racial violence in historical terms, especially the history of institutional/legal control. And I am curious as to what others in the forum think about this. If one wanted to address racism as a problem in need of solution, does it help to understand the history of racism and the institutional leverages which have distributed its effects unequally in the U.S.? Let's assume that many or all of the Chinese impacted by the unfavorable laws mentioned above may have also held racially unfavorable views of whites. If the whole issue were only about distributing blame, then perhaps that recognition would be "nuff said." If blame is the problem, then problemed solved. But what if ongoing discrimination, including acts of violence, is the problem? Should recognition that racism is not all white render us incurious about causes and effects of that discrimination in the U.S. today, especially where it may be rooted in law, housing and even geography?
What we have been told is that this person went to three different massage parlors and killed eight people becuase, he claims, he has a sex addiction and wanted to get rid of the temptation.
And he had a "bad day".
Let's break this down:
*IF* he truly has a sex addiction is it only directed at women in massage parlors? Why not any woman? Why did he direct his actions at those three places?
Well, what have we been told?
Can't assume it was because of race and we can't assume it is just women.
So why go there, specifically, to kill?
I know, I know, clearly he's mentally ill. Fact is that anyone who decides that kill someone will solve their own problem is probably mentally ill, same if he decided to kill himself.
But we still need to know why there and why those people.
Hopefully we have a future press conference after more of an investigation because what they are saying now to "calm" people isn't really holding water.
IMHO.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
What we have been told is that this person went to three different massage parlors and killed eight people becuase, he claims, he has a sex addiction and wanted to get rid of the temptation.
And he had a "bad day".
Let's break this down:
*IF* he truly has a sex addiction is it only directed at women in massage parlors? Why not any woman? Why did he direct his actions at those three places?
Well, what have we been told?
Can't assume it was because of race and we can't assume it is just women.
So why go there, specifically, to kill?
I know, I know, clearly he's mentally ill. Fact is that anyone who decides that kill someone will solve their own problem is probably mentally ill, same if he decided to kill himself.
But we still need to know why there and why those people.
Hopefully we have a future press conference after more of an investigation because what they are saying now to "calm" people isn't really holding water.
IMHO.
Well for a person acquainted with logic and common sense I think we can surmise that he frequented all three of these "massage" parlors in the past. Of course, we don't know that yet, so we shouldn't state so definitively, but it is logical given what we do know thus far. You think the police are done investigating this case already? You think the police won't release more information as it becomes available? You've come off looking ignorant and ill informed on myriad occasions in this forum, but this is probably your most insipid take since not being able to see a gun in someone's hands that was visible to literally everyone else in the forum. But don't let facts or common sense get in the way of your agenda. BTW, Dill will never "see" this.
(03-17-2021, 04:10 PM)Dill Wrote: but would Fred dodge "unpalatable evidence" and then claim the guy who presents it is the "disingenuous" one who "believes what he wants, regardless"? I think not.
Obviously he went to these places for his "sex addiction" but to say "eh, he takes the blame and said it wasn't racial" at a press conference is kinda iffy since "we don't know" anything.
He added: "He apparently has an issue. What he considers a sex addiction. And sees these locations as something that allows him to go to these places, and it's a temptation for him that he wanted to eliminate."
Oh, and I wonder if there will be any investigations into the owners of these massage parlors that were apparently providing sex to this guy...and probably others? Weird how that part is so often downplayed that there are people who run these businesses and never seem to get caught.
Well, the owner of the Pats did but he could afford good lawyers.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(03-17-2021, 06:53 PM)GMDino Wrote: So I was thinking on the way home:
Obviously he went to these places for his "sex addiction" but to say "eh, he takes the blame and said it wasn't racial" at a press conference is kinda iffy since "we don't know" anything.
Well, we know what he said. We know there's no evidence that it was racially motivated.
Quote:Always wait for the investigation, right?
Is the investigation over? In any event, this didn't stop a slew of people from painting this as an anti-Asian hate crime, including yourself.
Quote:Anyway, it's a sad case.
Absolutely correct.
Quote:Oh, and I wonder if there will be any investigations into the owners of these massage parlors that were apparently providing sex to this guy...and probably others? Weird how that part is so often downplayed that there are people who run these businesses and never seem to get caught.
Well, the owner of the Pats did but he could afford good lawyers.
Honestly, probably not, as it would be perceived as punishing the victims. They may shut them down (they'll just move locations) but given the current political climate I highly doubt we see any criminal charges for the "massage" parlor owners/operators/employees.
(03-17-2021, 07:16 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: The dude who made the press conference ( Jay Baker from Cherokee County ) was selling Coronavirus imported for Chy Na TShirts on the Internet ...
Look as long as he SAYS it's not about race...right?
Again this loon who did the shooting may really just be another repressed white christian male who took out his inab6to act like a normal person on the women who "tempted" him.
PC looked bad, now looks worse...but it still.may not be race related.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(03-17-2021, 10:07 PM)GMDino Wrote: Again this loon who did the shooting may really just be another repressed white christian male who took out his inab6to act like a normal person on the women who "tempted" him.
Loving the casual racism here. Like I said, nothing quite as pathetic as a self loather.
(03-17-2021, 10:07 PM)GMDino Wrote: Look as long as he SAYS it's not about race...right?
Again this loon who did the shooting may really just be another repressed white christian male who took out his inab6to act like a normal person on the women who "tempted" him.
This somehow appears to be a racial stereotype too. Typical repressed religious white man who can't get laid and such.
Wouldn't sound too good if white were replaced with some other race now, would it.
Not that I want to jump the reverse racism train, but I feel this is exactly the kind of generalization one is usually told to avoid.
(03-18-2021, 01:43 AM)hollodero Wrote: This somehow appears to be a racial stereotype too. Typical repressed religious white man who can't get laid and such.
Wouldn't sound too good if white were replaced with some other race now, would it.
Not that I want to jump the reverse racism train, but I feel this is exactly the kind of generalization one is usually told to avoid.
Aside from the fact that there's no such thing as reverse racism, just racism, you are 100% spot on.
(03-18-2021, 01:43 AM)hollodero Wrote: This somehow appears to be a racial stereotype too. Typical repressed religious white man who can't get laid and such.
Wouldn't sound too good if white were replaced with some other race now, would it.
Not that I want to jump the reverse racism train, but I feel this is exactly the kind of generalization one is usually told to avoid.
I never said he couldn't get laid. I said he was sexually repressed which is something that Christianity tries to do. Sex is bad. If you want sex you are bad. Even THINKING about sex is bad. Until you are married...then make lots of new Christians.
As a Christian, white male, I've seen it. I did use a stereotype..one based on things I have seen...but race didn't matter because I was talking about a real person who was white.
And it was only a "generalization" as far as I applied what we know so far about this admitted murderer and applied it to a "general" group who actually exist. Unless they killers actually get off or fetishize the killings many of them kill prostitutes, women, etc because they "tempt" them to be "bad" and think about sex. Others have killed male prostitutes or gays people because they were repressing their own homosexual desires. It is the OTHER PERSON'S fault for being a temptation...something that is in the man's mind because he was TAUGHT sex is bad and why won't these women quit making him have thoughts about sex?!?!
I'm sure there are other religions that teach the same. They may even encourage their women to cover up everything to avoid tempting men who just can't be held responsible for their own actions if they see a woman's body!
But as I said I know the religion I was raised in. The one that still shames girls if they bare their shoulders in the classroom because they will "distract" the boys.
The sexually repressed male is a thing. He being a white Christian was specific...but the the sexually repressed white male Christian is also a thing.
Being poor is a thing. The poor black person is a thing. Terrorism is a thing. The Muslim terrorist is a thing. They do not become racist if the person we are talking about is indeed black or Muslim...or white.
But I appreciate your thought on it and I'm glad I had a chance to expand on my post.
And I will, one time, address this continued stream of insults from the guy who doesn't want me to talk anymore but keeps quoting me and casting assumptions about what I think and what I mean. I'm just an average guy commenting on stories based on my own background and knowledge. I do not hate white people or Christians...I am a white and I was raised Christian and I feel free to speak on both of those when I see something wrong. I have never felt racism directed to me as a white male because some other white males did something and they were called out for it and accused of doing something or being something just because they are white. I will only hope that someday he can have the same peace of mind in what he truly is a person and man as I do.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(03-18-2021, 08:59 AM)GMDino Wrote: And I will, one time, address this continued stream of insults from the guy who doesn't want me to talk anymore but keeps quoting me and casting assumptions about what I think and what I mean. I'm just an average guy commenting on stories based on my own background and knowledge. I do not hate white people or Christians...I am a white and I was raised Christian and I feel free to speak on both of those when I see something wrong. I have never felt racism directed to me as a white male because some other white males did something and they were called out for it and accused of doing something or being something just because they are white. I will only hope that someday he can have the same peace of mind in what he truly is a person and man as I do.
What you are referring to here is "reverse racism," which doesn't exist as a material fact, but is nevertheless perceived to by many white people in the U.S. It rests in part on lack of understanding of how the term "racism" is defined and used in current social science work.
That is why arguments frequently arise whenever people use terms like "white privilege" or "white grievance" to analyze race-based power differentials between groups. Some white people perceive racial attack in such discussions, as if all whites are "blamed" somehow, and counter by insisting "Blacks can be racist too!" and numerating instances of Blacks or other racial groups exhibiting discrimination towards whites or other races.
For this group, it becomes "racist" to use race at all when analyzing power differentials, poverty, or violence against sub-groups like Asians. So anyone using or elaborating concepts like "white privilege" to explain social phenomena becomes the "real racist." Next step is to argue that "You can't fight racism with racism." The option they want is recognition that all groups can be racist. It is an individual thing and anyone can be one. Analysis stops there, with "individual responsibility." So stop making it all about whites.
This is an understandable viewpoint in the U.S. today, as race continues to play a central role in U.S. politics, yet many people (white and black) know little about the history of race relations which constructs the world we live in now. As the wealth gap widens, U.S. dominance of the world economy/politics recedes, people who have lived most of their lives in socially dominant positions feel threatened by forces that are hard to analyze adequately. One of those is the continued insistence of many Black opinion leaders that something called "systemic racism" is still at work in our laws, politics, and daily interactions. Some even go so far as to call for "reparations."
Politicians appeal to this feeling of unrest and imbalance among some whites too. When Right Wing figures from Tucker Carlson to Bill Barr make a point of denying there is something called "systemic racism," they are tapping white grievance as the perception "the Blacks" are using past repression to leverage unequal outcomes today. That is where the "real racism" is.
(03-18-2021, 08:59 AM)GMDino Wrote: I never said he couldn't get laid. I said he was sexually repressed which is something that Christianity tries to do. Sex is bad. If you want sex you are bad. Even THINKING about sex is bad. Until you are married...then make lots of new Christians.
As a Christian, white male, I've seen it. I did use a stereotype..one based on things I have seen...but race didn't matter because I was talking about a real person who was white.
And it was only a "generalization" as far as I applied what we know so far about this admitted murderer and applied it to a "general" group who actually exist. Unless they killers actually get off or fetishize the killings many of them kill prostitutes, women, etc because they "tempt" them to be "bad" and think about sex. Others have killed male prostitutes or gays people because they were repressing their own homosexual desires. It is the OTHER PERSON'S fault for being a temptation...something that is in the man's mind because he was TAUGHT sex is bad and why won't these women quit making him have thoughts about sex?!?!
I'm sure there are other religions that teach the same. They may even encourage their women to cover up everything to avoid tempting men who just can't be held responsible for their own actions if they see a woman's body!
But as I said I know the religion I was raised in. The one that still shames girls if they bare their shoulders in the classroom because they will "distract" the boys.
The sexually repressed male is a thing. He being a white Christian was specific...but the the sexually repressed white male Christian is also a thing.
Being poor is a thing. The poor black person is a thing. Terrorism is a thing. The Muslim terrorist is a thing. They do not become racist if the person we are talking about is indeed black or Muslim...or white.
But I appreciate your thought on it and I'm glad I had a chance to expand on my post.
And I will, one time, address this continued stream of insults from the guy who doesn't want me to talk anymore but keeps quoting me and casting assumptions about what I think and what I mean. I'm just an average guy commenting on stories based on my own background and knowledge. I do not hate white people or Christians...I am a white and I was raised Christian and I feel free to speak on both of those when I see something wrong. I have never felt racism directed to me as a white male because some other white males did something and they were called out for it and accused of doing something or being something just because they are white. I will only hope that someday he can have the same peace of mind in what he truly is a person and man as I do.
That' a lot of words to defend your engaging in bigoted stereotypes. As I've said, repeatedly, in this forum you can't fight racism with more racism and expect a good result. You felt comfortable with engaging in bigoted tropes because today's atmosphere largely allows it. That you felt the need to defend your use of bigoted tropes just shows how deeply this is engrained in you. I've often found that the people who are quickest to hurl accusations of racism are harboring a lot of racist thoughts and beliefs as themselves. Projection through accusation.
(03-18-2021, 01:43 AM)hollodero Wrote: This somehow appears to be a racial stereotype too. Typical repressed religious white man who can't get laid and such.
Wouldn't sound too good if white were replaced with some other race now, would it.
Not that I want to jump the reverse racism train, but I feel this is exactly the kind of generalization one is usually told to avoid.
Hollo, The "replacement test" can be a useful exploratory tool for social analysis.
E.g., how would it sound if we replaced "Black History Month" with "White History Month"?
My only question about replacing "white" with "black" or "Asian" in your example would be--does it usefully describe the behavior of the demographic group in question? It wouldn't "sound good" if there are no, or a statistically irrelevant number, of repressed religious black men who can't get laid and so kill women. That would raise some interesting exploratory questions--like how many Black men identify as "incels"?
Your replacement would "sound good" to me, if such a category of persons becomes visible in crime statistics. I would leave off the term "typical" though--at least for a while.
(03-18-2021, 11:14 AM)Dill Wrote: What you are referring to here is "reverse racism," which doesn't exist as a material fact, but is nevertheless perceived to by many white people in the U.S. It rests in part on lack of understanding of how the term "racism" is defined and used in current social science work.
That is why arguments frequently arise whenever people use terms like "white privilege" or "white grievance" to analyze race-based power differentials between groups. Some white people perceive racial attack in such discussions, as if all whites are "blamed" somehow, and counter by insisting "Blacks can be racist too!" and numerating instances of Blacks or other racial groups exhibiting discrimination towards whites or other races.
For this group, it becomes "racist" to use race at all when analyzing power differentials, poverty, or violence against sub-groups like Asians. So anyone using or elaborating concepts like "white privilege" to explain social phenomena becomes the "real racist." Next step is to argue that "You can't fight racism with racism." The option they want is recognition that all groups can be racist. It is an individual thing and anyone can be one. Analysis stops there, with "individual responsibility." So stop making it all about whites.
This is an understandable viewpoint in the U.S. today, as race continues to play a central role in U.S. politics, yet many people (white and black) know little about the history of race relations which constructs the world we live in now. As the wealth gap widens, U.S. dominance of the world economy/politics recedes, people who have lived most of their lives in socially dominant positions feel threatened by forces that are hard to analyze adequately. One of those is the continued insistence of many Black opinion leaders that something called "systemic racism" is still at work in our laws, politics, and daily interactions. Some even go so far as to call for "reparations."
Politicians appeal to this feeling of unrest and imbalance among some whites too. When Right Wing figures from Tucker Carlson to Bill Barr make a point of denying there is something called "systemic racism," they are tapping white grievance as the perception "the Blacks" are using past repression to leverage unequal outcomes today. That is where the "real racism" is.
And the continual accusations that others have racism "ingrained" in them while simultaneously saying that hurling accusations of racism is "projection" broke my irony meter and why there is no need to respond directly, or at all, any more.
The non-PC crowd sure get up in arms when a label gets used that *THEY* don't like.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(03-18-2021, 11:39 AM)GMDino Wrote: And the continual accusations that others have racism "ingrained" in them while simultaneously saying that hurling accusations of racism is "projection" broke my irony meter and why there is no need to respond directly, or at all, any more.
The non-PC crowd sure get up in arms when a label gets used that *THEY* don't like.
I suppose you could find one example of me engaging in stereotypical tropes to actually prove that? But we both know the answer. I dislike stereotyping and bigoted tropes regardless of the target, unlike yourself I don't believe there aren't certain groups that are fair game. You could post one of your "Please, somebody think of the White people" memes now if you really want to hammer my point home.
(03-18-2021, 11:30 AM)Dill Wrote: Hollo, The "replacement test" can be a useful exploratory tool for social analysis.
E.g., how would it sound if we replaced "Black History Month" with "White History Month"?
My only question about replacing "white" with "black" or "Asian" in your example would be--does it usefully describe the behavior of the demographic group in question? It wouldn't "sound good" if there are no, or a statistically irrelevant number, of repressed religious black men who can't get laid and so kill women. That would raise some interesting exploratory questions--like how many Black men identify as "incels"?
Your replacement would "sound good" to me, if such a category of persons becomes visible in crime statistics. I would leave off the term "typical" though--at least for a while.
Or why don't you do an actually "replacement test" and replace a stereotypically bigoted trope with another? GM was very quick to accuse Bfine of racism when Bfine posted a picture of looting in Chicago in which a black woman was the main focus of the picture (BTW it was literallt the first pic on Google images about the riots and looting in Chicago that weekend). Now if Bfine had responded with a statement like "Just another black person looting", he would rightly be accused of exactly what GM is doing in this thread, engaging in negative tropes about an ethnicity.
Your example is identical to someone making a comment about how Asians can't drive, which is a known negative trope about Asians, and replaced it with white people or black people can't drive. As neither of these are negative tropes about either of those ethnicities your "replacement" wouldn't sound racist. Thus, your "replacement test" doesn't work because being a repressed Christian is not a negative trope about black people, hence your analogy is an exceedingly poor one.
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