The question of democracy

[Belsnickel]

(03-15-2018, 11:14 AM)Dill Wrote: Thanks for the thoughtful post. I didn't mean to imply the work itself was sketchy. The letters and other documents are definitely primary historical materials, and it is fun to read their debates "unprocessed" by secondary authors.

The Constitution did not drop out of the sky fully formed. I think we get deeper insight into the Framer's intent when we look at these early debates which brought them from the Articles of Confederation to document eventually ratified, and which we still live with. Wish I had read those proceedings back in my 20s.

Hey I'll be down your way in couple of weeks, in Roanoke anyway.

One of my biggest pet peeves is how so many people seemingly deify the framers. They definitely were great thinkers of the day, but we have to keep in mind that they were human, and they were politicians. They debated, they were flawed, and they were subject to some of the same pitfalls that our present day politicians are subject to. The formation of this country's system of government was definitely a process and many people forget that.

I see myself going into one of my usual rants that turns people off around here, so I'll stop traveling down this path.

Interestingly enough, I've never been to Roanoke. Before my wife and I got together, I hadn't experience much of the Commonwealth at all. I was in my city, here, and I had driven through places to get to other states, and I had seen scout camps and a couple of naval bases. Other than that, I hadn't experienced much of what Virginia has to offer. Since then I've spent a lot more time in central and eastern parts of the state. I can't bring myself to go to NoVA, because **** that. I go and catch the Metro into DC, but that's it. But I also haven't hit up southside and the SW area, either. I really need to, I just haven't found the time.

[masterpanthera_t]

(03-15-2018, 11:25 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: One of my biggest pet peeves is how so many people seemingly deify the framers. They definitely were great thinkers of the day, but we have to keep in mind that they were human, and they were politicians. They debated, they were flawed, and they were subject to some of the same pitfalls that our present day politicians are subject to. The formation of this country's system of government was definitely a process and many people forget that.

I see myself going into one of my usual rants that turns people off around here, so I'll stop traveling down this path.

Interestingly enough, I've never been to Roanoke. Before my wife and I got together, I hadn't experience much of the Commonwealth at all. I was in my city, here, and I had driven through places to get to other states, and I had seen scout camps and a couple of naval bases. Other than that, I hadn't experienced much of what Virginia has to offer. Since then I've spent a lot more time in central and eastern parts of the state. I can't bring myself to go to NoVA, because **** that. I go and catch the Metro into DC, but that's it. But I also haven't hit up southside and the SW area, either. I really need to, I just haven't found the time.

I might be in the minority I suppose, but I don't find this type of discussion focusing on the founders as mere mortals with flaws being broached a whole lot anywhere. Mostly these guys get deified in most political discourse in the few places their intent is brought up in the context of an amendment. Sometimes to the point that any discussion of a rethinking of laws can simply be ended with "but the founders", as if nobody from this era could advocate a thought which might apply better to current society than guys from 200 plus years ago. So, I personally wouldn't consider it a "rant" if you went down this path. You present things with a fairly balanced approach with enough self awareness that I think it would be fairly well received across the spectrum of viewpoints on this board. If you mean that you can get a little pedantic, I can see that, but sometimes it needs to go there.

Speaking of traveling down paths, I pass by your university a lot when I come down to see my parents in Radford. It feels like a different world, but in a way I get to see the difference in mindset between "urban" and "rural", though my interactions with folks there (SW Va) is very minimal (meaning I just see/hear people when I'm out shopping at stores. 

[Belsnickel]

(03-15-2018, 01:01 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: I might be in the minority I suppose, but I don't find this type of discussion focusing on the founders as mere mortals with flaws being broached a whole lot anywhere. Mostly these guys get deified in most political discourse in the few places their intent is brought up in the context of an amendment. Sometimes to the point that any discussion of a rethinking of laws can simply be ended with "but the founders", as if nobody from this era could advocate a thought which might apply better to current society than guys from 200 plus years ago. So, I personally wouldn't consider it a "rant" if you went down this path. You present things with a fairly balanced approach with enough self awareness that I think it would be fairly well received across the spectrum of viewpoints on this board. If you mean that you can get a little pedantic, I can see that, but sometimes it needs to go there.

Well, my usual rants on this topic end up in me talking about how we have the oldest written constitution in the world still in use and that I'm not sure it's something we should be proud of. Yadda yadda. I'm in favor of a new constitutional convention to either start from the ground up or get some serious amendments going. So that is more of the ideas to which I was referring.

And I appreciate the pedantic comment.

(03-15-2018, 01:01 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: Speaking of traveling down paths, I pass by your university a lot when I come down to see my parents in Radford. It feels like a different world, but in a way I get to see the difference in mindset between "urban" and "rural", though my interactions with folks there (SW Va) is very minimal (meaning I just see/hear people when I'm out shopping at stores. 

Harrisonburg is a blue island in a sea of red. We are the closest thing to urban between Winchester and Roanoke, and that's not saying much. The whole valley is very rural and it can be a different world for people. Hell, when people come over from central Virginia they are kind of amazed, especially when they hit the Radford area.

A conference I sometimes go to moves around between the different state schools. I am hoping to go to the one in the fall, which is in Radford.

[masterpanthera_t]

(03-15-2018, 01:32 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, my usual rants on this topic end up in me talking about how we have the oldest written constitution in the world still in use and that I'm not sure it's something we should be proud of. Yadda yadda. I'm in favor of a new constitutional convention to either start from the ground up or get some serious amendments going. So that is more of the ideas to which I was referring.

And I appreciate the pedantic comment.

Maybe I've just missed these posts, but I don't find this type of discourse questioning the founders' views very much in mainstream media, and probably not even a whole lot more here. So, I would tell you to start and keep going, until we tell you to "pipe down you pedantic policy peddler"  .

Quote:Harrisonburg is a blue island in a sea of red. We are the closest thing to urban between Winchester and Roanoke, and that's not saying much. The whole valley is very rural and it can be a different world for people. Hell, when people come over from central Virginia they are kind of amazed, especially when they hit the Radford area. 


A conference I sometimes go to moves around between the different state schools. I am hoping to go to the one in the fall, which is in Radford.

Not to necessarily take this thread in another direction, but I've wondered on occasions (maybe it's my ignorance showing), what exactly drives the economy in the rural areas of Virginia or for that matter midwestern states, as I'm sure there is a lot of commonality in the demographics there? Is the majority of the economy based on farming? Something else that I just haven't thought about? For instance, in the SW part of VA, there's VA tech, and some factories near Christiansburg, but are these mostly the exception in a sea of farms or is the rural economy driven by something I haven't even thought of?