The right's obsession with AOC

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

I hate to interrupt the fascinating semantic argument going on, but I really feel the need to inject some rational points.

First, these are not "concentration camps" they are detention facilities that any single person in them could freely leave and return to their point of origin. One cannot freely leave a concentration camp, ergo these are not concentration camps.

Secondly, using the term concentration camp has an intense negative connotation that every single person in this thread is aware of. Using it in this instance is intentionally inflammatory and anyone pretending it wasn't used for precisely that reason should be ashamed of their rank dishonesty.

[GMDino]

(06-20-2019, 10:55 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I not only read the article, I watched her interview. What she does is the same thing everyone else is doing: referring to the literal definition; however, she's open-minded enough to appreciate to connotation of the term with the Nazi camps and suggests we could use other phrases.

What folks have to do is ask themselves why they think AOC used the term Concentration Camps and interjected Never Again. Do they think she was trying to draw correlation to Nazi camps or just using the term because of its literal definition. 

Personally I think she used the term for shock value and compared millions that lost their lives in the holocaust with people detained for breaking the law. But everyone will apprach the situation with his/her own open mind to include the author cited. 

Personally I think she used it and "never again" because concentration camps have been used to place "undesirables" in them where they die due to deteriorating conditions and that in the past some have become extermination camps.

But maybe that's just because that's the truth about these camps and not a political talking point so it might be hard for some to comprehend.

I mean if one read the article and took all the information presented in this thread and still thinks it was just for "shock value" I'd think that that person is willing to ignore all the facts just to make a political point based on nothing more than what they "think" versus what was presented.  Or that they are incapable of imagining an elected official who speaks in more than word-salad sound bytes designed to rile or appease their base.

[hollodero]

(06-20-2019, 11:10 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I hate to interrupt the fascinating semantic argument going on, but I really feel the need to inject some rational points.  

First, these are not "concentration camps" they are detention facilities that any single person in them could freely leave and return to their point of origin.  One cannot freely leave a concentration camp, ergo these are not concentration camps.

Secondly, using the term concentration camp has an intense negative connotation that every single person in this thread is aware of.  Using it in this instance is intentionally inflammatory and anyone pretending it wasn't used for precisely that reason should be ashamed of their rank dishonesty.

Yeah I do not doubt it was intentionally inflammatory. Also hyperbolic. But that happens pretty much every time an US politician talks.

[Belsnickel]

(06-20-2019, 11:10 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I hate to interrupt the fascinating semantic argument going on, but I really feel the need to inject some rational points.

First, these are not "concentration camps" they are detention facilities that any single person in them could freely leave and return to their point of origin. One cannot freely leave a concentration camp, ergo these are not concentration camps.

Secondly, using the term concentration camp has an intense negative connotation that every single person in this thread is aware of. Using it in this instance is intentionally inflammatory and anyone pretending it wasn't used for precisely that reason should be ashamed of their rank dishonesty.

While I agree that the phrase was used to evoke certain emotions, the camps on the southern border seem to fit within the definitions previously provided. Your assertion does not change that.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-20-2019, 11:17 AM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah I do not doubt it was intentionally inflammatory. Also hyperbolic. But that happens pretty much every time an US politician talks.

Agreed, if only those who dislike it when others do it would be consistent in this regard.

(06-20-2019, 11:21 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: While I agree that the phrase was used to evoke certain emotions, the camps on the southern border seem to fit within the definitions previously provided. Your assertion does not change that.

Except it absolutely does.  If you can leave the facility of your own free will at any time it is not a concentration camp.  The English invented them in the Boer wars, they could not be left by their occupants.  In fact name me a time "concentration camps" were used that could be left at any time.

[GMDino]

(06-20-2019, 11:10 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I hate to interrupt the fascinating semantic argument going on, but I really feel the need to inject some rational points.  

First, these are not "concentration camps" they are detention facilities that any single person in them could freely leave and return to their point of origin.  One cannot freely leave a concentration camp, ergo these are not concentration camps.

Secondly, using the term concentration camp has an intense negative connotation that every single person in this thread is aware of.  Using it in this instance is intentionally inflammatory and anyone pretending it wasn't used for precisely that reason should be ashamed of their rank dishonesty.

(06-20-2019, 11:37 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Agreed, if only those who dislike it when others do it would be consistent in this regard.


Except it absolutely does.  If you can leave the facility of your own free will at any time it is not a concentration camp.  The English invented them in the Boer wars, they could not be left by their occupants.  In fact name me a time "concentration camps" were used that could be left at any time.

Is that policy?

A search didn't show where it was stated that they could just "go home" whenever they wanted.

Maybe I missed your source?

[*bfine32*]

(06-20-2019, 11:10 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I hate to interrupt the fascinating semantic argument going on, but I really feel the need to inject some rational points.  

First, these are not "concentration camps" they are detention facilities that any single person in them could freely leave and return to their point of origin.  One cannot freely leave a concentration camp, ergo these are not concentration camps.

Secondly, using the term concentration camp has an intense negative connotation that every single person in this thread is aware of.  Using it in this instance is intentionally inflammatory and anyone pretending it wasn't used for precisely that reason should be ashamed of their rank dishonesty.

I remember when we agreed on nothing. But I appreciate you injecting some rationality into the discussion and taking the phrase used for its intent. 

[hollodero]

(06-20-2019, 11:37 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Agreed, if only those who dislike it when others do it would be consistent in this regard.

Yeah right... but that goes both ways.

E.g. I saw some of those public hearings in Congress, Cohen, Strzok and such. Pretty much every republican that was called upon went on a rant in those. And often not just accusing the other party of playing politics or such child stuff. Nope, it often were rants about imaginary scandals, within the FBI, on the judiciary level, illegal entanglements with the democratic party, with a deep state, totally unfounded conspiracy theories presented as fact. All deeply alarmist, all horrificly irresponsible to claim in public as a politican at the very least. Oh, and the constitution gets torn apart like all the time and the deep state betrays the will of the people by planning a coup d'etat and whatnot. How staunch republicans don't sit on the hills and prepare for anarchy already is astonishing.

I mean, for me that was a bit crazy at first. Then I started to see it as US normal. It's what the media wants. But whoever is upset about these things (and of course with Trump on almost an hourly basis), I will believe is honestly upset about AOC. If not, it's probably more because she's AOC.

(06-20-2019, 11:37 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Except it absolutely does.  If you can leave the facility of your own free will at any time it is not a concentration camp.

That does ring true.
Can everyone leave at any time though?

[*bfine32*]

(06-20-2019, 11:43 AM)GMDino Wrote: Is that policy?

A search didn't show where it was stated that they could just "go home" whenever they wanted.

Maybe I missed your source?

(06-20-2019, 12:00 PM)hollodero Wrote: That does ring true.
Can everyone leave at any time though?

I'm not 100% certain but I think you are only detained if you want to fight the charges of illegal immigration brought on you. But I am 100% they could have avoided being detained all together. Can we say the same of other Concentration Camps in the past? 

[GMDino]

(06-20-2019, 12:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm not 100% certain but I think you are only detained if you want to fight the charges of illegal immigration brought on you. But I am 100% they could have avoided being detained all together. Can we say the same of other Concentration Camps in the past? 

Again, I haven't found a source other than posts on this message board with no links.

But saying they wouldn't be put in camps if they weren't here isn't the same as they can leave and "go home" whenever they want.

[hollodero]

(06-20-2019, 12:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm not 100% certain but I think you are only detained if you want to fight the charges of illegal immigration brought on you. But I am 100% they could have avoided being detained all together. Can we say the same of other Concentration Camps in the past? 

No. She clearly was hyperbolic.

You're still sporting selective outrage. If AOC upsets you so much with this comment, Trump must throw your honest mind into turmoil every day. But that you tend to keep to yourself.

Oh and also you accuse her of a comparison with German extinction camps specifically. That's hyperbolic too.

[*bfine32*]

(06-20-2019, 12:44 PM)hollodero Wrote: No. She clearly was hyperbolic.

You're still sporting selective outrage. If AOC upsets you so much with this comment, Trump must throw your honest mind into turmoil every day. But that you tend to keep to yourself.

Oh and also you accuse her of a comparison with German extinction camps specifically. That's hyperbolic too.

This seems more like "Trump's fault" or 2 wrongs make a right fallacy. Provide me with a Trump quote I should be outraged over and we'll go from there. 

Guilty as charged; I do think she was trying to draw the correlation; however, I am not outraged by her quote. I do find it insensitive and the correlation ridiculous. Perhaps if I had lost loved ones in concentration camps in which they had no part in being placed into, no means of liberation from them, and often times killed in them then I would probably be outraged by them. Call that hyperbolic if you deem it as such, at least in this instance you provide an opinion instead of an "I don't know" 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-20-2019, 11:43 AM)GMDino Wrote: Is that policy?

A search didn't show where it was stated that they could just "go home" whenever they wanted.

Maybe I missed your source?

I have friends who work in ICE, this is standard immigration policy.  I didn't find a link online directly to this US policy, but a quick search revealed the following from a uber pro immigration group

https://www.freedomforimmigrants.org/hard-questions


[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.9)]6. If immigration detention is so bad, why don't people just self deport?[/color]

Conditions in immigrant prisons and jails across the world are so terrible in part because governments believe that poor conditions lead to self-deportation.  In other words, governments are purposefully creating immigration detention regimes that are inhumane in the hopes that these unlivable conditions will force people to return to their country of origin.  However, many people are willing to be confined in deplorable conditions indefinitely rather than be sent to suffer possible harm or death in their country of origin or be separated from their family members already living in the country indefinitely.  In most instances of “self-deportation,” when a person in detention signs away their right to fight their immigration case, the deportation is far from "voluntary." 

(06-20-2019, 11:53 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I remember when we agreed on nothing. But I appreciate you injecting some rationality into the discussion and taking the phrase used for its intent. 

We disagreed on less then you think, and the topics we did disagree on we still do.  The change has really come from how far to the left many have gone while I haven't moved.  By my not moving we have gotten much closer to each other ideologically than I am to the current left.

(06-20-2019, 12:00 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah right... but that goes both ways.

Most definitely. 

Quote:E.g. I saw some of those public hearings in Congress, Cohen, Strzok and such. Pretty much every republican that was called upon went on a rant in those. And often not just accusing the other party of playing politics or such child stuff. Nope, it often were rants about imaginary scandals, within the FBI, on the judiciary level, illegal entanglements with the democratic party, with a deep state, totally unfounded conspiracy theories presented as fact. All deeply alarmist, all horrificly irresponsible to claim in public as a politican at the very least. Oh, and the constitution gets torn apart like all the time and the deep state betrays the will of the people by planning a coup d'etat and whatnot. How staunch republicans don't sit on the hills and prepare for anarchy already is astonishing.

Yes, I am aware of that and it's hyperbolic, unfounded and stupid.  

Quote:I mean, for me that was a bit crazy at first. Then I started to see it as US normal. It's what the media wants. But whoever is upset about these things (and of course with Trump on almost an hourly basis), I will believe is honestly upset about AOC. If not, it's probably more because she's AOC.

It's not the US normal, there are still far more people and politicans who are reasonable then there are AOC's and Steven King's.

Quote:That does ring true.
Can everyone leave at any time though?

As stated above I have friends who work for ICE and this has always been the case.  You are held in detention as you apply for entrance, whatever the reason.  If you choose to no longer seek entry you can, and will, be immediately released to repatriate.

[GMDino]

(06-20-2019, 01:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I have friends who work in ICE, this is standard immigration policy.  I didn't find a link online directly to this US policy, but a quick search revealed the following from a uber pro immigration group

https://www.freedomforimmigrants.org/hard-questions


[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.9)]6. If immigration detention is so bad, why don't people just self deport?[/color]

Conditions in immigrant prisons and jails across the world are so terrible in part because governments believe that poor conditions lead to self-deportation.  In other words, governments are purposefully creating immigration detention regimes that are inhumane in the hopes that these unlivable conditions will force people to return to their country of origin.  However, many people are willing to be confined in deplorable conditions indefinitely rather than be sent to suffer possible harm or death in their country of origin or be separated from their family members already living in the country indefinitely.  In most instances of “self-deportation,” when a person in detention signs away their right to fight their immigration case, the deportation is far from "voluntary." 


We disagreed on less then you think, and the topics we did disagree on we still do.  The change has really come from how far to the left many have gone while I haven't moved.  By my not moving we have gotten much closer to each other ideologically than I am to the current left.



Most definitely. 



Yes, I am aware of that and it's hyperbolic, unfounded and stupid.  



It's not the US normal, there are still far more people and politicans who are reasonable then there are AOC's and Steven King's.


As stated above I have friends who work for ICE and this has always been the case.  You are held in detention as you apply for entrance, whatever the reason.  If you choose to no longer seek entry you can, and will, be immediately released to repatriate.

Oh.  You have a friend...that's a good source.

Again, is this the policy of the US government running the camps in the US? 

Edit to add: That link is a good source of info on why these camps are bad and how poorly they work. Thanks.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-20-2019, 01:21 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh.  You have a friend...that's a good source.

Again, is this the policy of the US government running the camps in the US? 

Ugh, as I stated, yes it is.  A pro immigration site I linked gave you the same info.  If that's not good enough for you then I honestly don't care.  Don't bother with a smarmy reply, I'll simply infer it mentally.

[Belsnickel]

(06-20-2019, 01:21 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh.  You have a friend...that's a good source.

Again, is this the policy of the US government running the camps in the US? 

Edit to add: That link is a good source of info on why these camps are bad and how poorly they work. Thanks.

Self-deportation is a policy, however they sign away a lot when they do it. Also, how many of them are seeking asylum and lack an actual home to go back to?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-20-2019, 01:27 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Self-deportation is a policy, however they sign away a lot when they do it. Also, how many of them are seeking asylum and lack an actual home to go back to?

Now that you've said it he'll believe it.  What you say is largely correct but it also completely reinforces my point; the people in these facilities are free to leave at any time.  Hence it is not a "concentration camp" in any way.

[*bfine32*]

(06-20-2019, 01:27 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Self-deportation is a policy, however they sign away a lot when they do it. Also, how many of them are seeking asylum and lack an actual home to go back to?

From my limited research voluntary departure actually allows the detained to retain more rights than they lose; especially if adjudged to be involuntarily departed. The bigger point being. That really wasn't a policy in the concentrations camps of past.  

[hollodero]

(06-20-2019, 12:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This seems more like "Trump's fault" or 2 wrongs make a right fallacy. Provide me with a Trump quote I should be outraged over and we'll go from there. 

Seriously?
Too bad I have limited time now, this could balloon into eternity otherwise. From thousands of examples, I chosse him claiming the not-right wing media is fake news and the enemy of the people.
But fair warning, you might avoid follow-ups. There's so much good material. This is a man who admitted to have fallen in love with the murderous dictator of an US enemy, after all.

(06-20-2019, 12:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Guilty as charged; I do think she was trying to draw the correlation; however, I am not outraged by her quote. I do find it insensitive and the correlation ridiculous. Perhaps if I had lost loved ones in concentration camps in which they had no part in being placed into, no means of liberation from them, and often times killed in them then I would probably be outraged by them. Call that hyperbolic if you deem it as such, at least in this instance you provide an opinion instead of an "I don't know" 

I do find those who slam AOC for diminishing the holocaust with her comments hyperbolic too.
And things like those indeed often stem from association beyond what was actually said. "I don't know her intent" seems a more honest answer to me. For I indeed do not know and to me there's not enough to make a guess and call it obvious, like you do.

[Belsnickel]

(06-20-2019, 01:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Now that you've said it he'll believe it.  What you say is largely correct but it also completely reinforces my point; the people in these facilities are free to leave at any time.  Hence it is not a "concentration camp" in any way.

Are they or are they not detained under armed guard? That is what makes it a concentration camp by the definitions. It is still detention without due process.

The funniest thing about this conversation to me is that I disagree with AOC (mostly). I can just see a rationale behind her word choice when you look at the definitions.