The right's obsession with AOC

[hollodero]

(06-20-2019, 01:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's not the US normal, there are still far more people and politicans who are reasonable then there are AOC's and Steven King's.

OK... maybe. Just for honesty's sake, I see quite a lot of hyperbolic, dishonest politicians on the democratic side, a bunch more hyperbolic, dishonest politicians on the republican side, and Steven King is something else. I don't really buy into a direct King-AOC comparison.

(06-20-2019, 01:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As stated above I have friends who work for ICE and this has always been the case.  You are held in detention as you apply for entrance, whatever the reason.  If you choose to no longer seek entry you can, and will, be immediately released to repatriate.

OK. Then I guess it's indeed not a concentration camp.

[*bfine32*]

(06-20-2019, 01:37 PM)hollodero Wrote: Seriously?
Too bad I have limited time now, this could balloon into eternity otherwise. From thousands of examples, I chosse him claiming the not-right wing media is fake news and the enemy of the people.
But fair warning, you might avoid follow-ups. There's so much good material. This is a man who admitted to have fallen in love with the murderous dictator of an US enemy, after all.



I do find those who slam AOC for diminishing the holocaust with her comments hyperbolic too.
And things like those indeed often stem from association beyond what was actually said. "I don't know her intent" seems a more honest answer to me. For I indeed do not know and to me there's not enough to make a guess and call it obvious, like you do.

I've spoken numerous times about my dislike for Trump's comments as POTUS against the free press; same with the judicial system. I'm just associated with "defending him" when I point to articles that give him ammunition

[*bfine32*]

(06-20-2019, 01:40 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Are they or are they not detained under armed guard? That is what makes it a concentration camp by the definitions. It is still detention without due process.

The funniest thing about this conversation to me is that I disagree with AOC (mostly). I can just see a rationale behind her word choice when you look at the definitions.

Semantics are a hoot.

[GMDino]

(06-20-2019, 01:27 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Self-deportation is a policy, however they sign away a lot when they do it. Also, how many of them are seeking asylum and lack an actual home to go back to?

Is it the policy of the US in these camps right now?

I'd think if it was one of Trump's minions would have said so: "They can go home whenever they want!"

But there has been none of that.

(06-20-2019, 01:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Now that you've said it he'll believe it.  What you say is largely correct but it also completely reinforces my point; the people in these facilities are free to leave at any time.  Hence it is not a "concentration camp" in any way.

And do you believe that if they don't have a place to go they can "can home whenever they want"?

Like I said if that were the case DJT would have made a YUGE deal about it and how it's not his fault they are in the camps since they can "go home whenever they want".

[fredtoast]

My son has ADD. To help him learn some coping skills I sent him to "Concentration Camp" this summer.

He seemed to like it.

[fredtoast]

(06-20-2019, 01:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: However, many people are willing to be confined in deplorable conditions indefinitely rather than be sent to suffer possible harm or death in their country of origin or be separated from their family members already living in the country indefinitely.  In most instances of “self-deportation,” when a person in detention signs away their right to fight their immigration case, the deportation is far from "voluntary." 

So maybe we should start torturing these people so they will "voluntarily" self deport.

Make America Great Again, right?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-20-2019, 01:40 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Are they or are they not detained under armed guard? That is what makes it a concentration camp by the definitions. It is still detention without due process.

The funniest thing about this conversation to me is that I disagree with AOC (mostly). I can just see a rationale behind her word choice when you look at the definitions.

There under guard to prevent them from going somewhere they aren't permitted.  If you can leave then you're not detained, you're just not allowed to go wherever you want.  Look, I don't agree with some of our immigration policy, but the people in these facilities are there by choice.  They are also there while they argue their case, which is the definition of due process.

(06-20-2019, 01:47 PM)GMDino Wrote: Is it the policy of the US in these camps right now?

I'd think if it was one of Trump's minions would have said so: "They can go home whenever they want!"

But there has been none of that.

Uhm, yes, people do choose to return rather than stay in those facilities and fight their case.

Quote:And do you believe that if they don't have a place to go they can "can home whenever they want"?

Of course they have a place to go, back to their country of origin.  Are the homeless in the United States people with "nowhere to go"?

Quote:Like I said if that were the case DJT would have made a YUGE deal about it and how it's not his fault they are in the camps since they can "go home whenever they want".

You've had two people and a pro immigration site assure you this is the case.  If you don't care to believe it, that's cool.

(06-20-2019, 01:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So maybe we should start torturing these people so they will "voluntarily" self deport.

Make America Great Again, right?

Maybe we should just nuke the entire planet outside US borders, that would also be a hyperbolic way to solve this issue?  Thanks for contributing as always.

[Belsnickel]

(06-20-2019, 01:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Semantics are a hoot.

They are!

(06-20-2019, 01:47 PM)GMDino Wrote: Is it the policy of the US in these camps right now?

I'd think if it was one of Trump's minions would have said so: "They can go home whenever they want!"

But there has been none of that.

They are the policy in the camps right now. However, and I can't remember where I read and listened to this, there were some bad experiences from immigrants with taking that option. Specifically, there were instances where parents took the option thinking they would be reunited with their children. However, they discovered that their children were still in the US when they got back to their country of origin and it has taken a lot of effort to get their children back, some are still engaged in the fight.

Stories like this have created an atmosphere among the immigrants that makes them reluctant to take the option, especially those that came with children.

[Belsnickel]

(06-20-2019, 02:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: There under guard to prevent them from going somewhere they aren't permitted.  If you can leave then you're not detained, you're just not allowed to go wherever you want.  Look, I don't agree with some of our immigration policy, but the people in these facilities are there by choice.  They are also there while they argue their case, which is the definition of due process.

I don't consider it due process when many of them have not even been accused of any crimes according to this report: https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2019-06/OIG-19-47-Jun19.pdf

A lot of these people aren't in these camps by choice. They are seeking asylum, something they have a legal right to do, and are not here illegally and they don't have a place to go back to. That means they don't have a choice. They cannot go free anytime they choose.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-20-2019, 02:37 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't consider it due process when many of them have not even been accused of any crimes according to this report: https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2019-06/OIG-19-47-Jun19.pdf

Nor are they required to be permitted free entry while they claim asylum.  They absolutely do have a choice.  While it's not a choice you or I would like to make they can choose to return to their country of origin.  There are millions of people still residing in these countries.  Again, while you or I might not choose to live there the fact is millions do.  This is not a choice between entering a camp awaiting processing of my asylum request and a return to certain death.  

Quote:A lot of these people aren't in these camps by choice. They are seeking asylum, something they have a legal right to do, and are not here illegally and they don't have a place to go back to. That means they don't have a choice. They cannot go free anytime they choose.

No one is preventing them from seeking asylum, they are just required to reside in these camps while their request is processed.  They absolutely have a place to return to, but it's a place they choose not to return to.  So yes, they can leave when they want, and they choose not to.  You're making this sound like a choice between staying in these camps and jumping into a woodchipper.  It's not that and you know it isn't.  Billions of people on this planet live in horrible conditions by our standards.  Nearly every single one of them would come here given the option.  That doesn't mean they have no place to return to if they did or that every single one of them should be permitted entry.  You're engaging in an argument that probably only legitimately applies to a minute percentage of migrant applicants.


I'll reiterate, I'm not at all unsympathetic to those trying to migrate here, but you're trying to paint this as something it absolutely is not for the vast majority of those attempting to migrate here.

[*bfine32*]

(06-20-2019, 02:37 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't consider it due process when many of them have not even been accused of any crimes according to this report: https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2019-06/OIG-19-47-Jun19.pdf

A lot of these people aren't in these camps by choice. They are seeking asylum, something they have a legal right to do, and are not here illegally and they don't have a place to go back to. That means they don't have a choice. They cannot go free anytime they choose.

I did a ctrl F search for crime and accused on the document linked. Given I didn't scrub the report but I did make it to the first line:

Quote:U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) apprehends, detains, and removes aliens who are in the United States unlawfully. 

Now this statement may be contradicted later in the report. 

[Aquapod770]

(06-20-2019, 09:47 AM)GMDino Wrote: Well said.

A very well constructed Whataboutism. 

Is it really that hard to believe Trump and AOC often say absolutely stupid things? 

[GMDino]

(06-20-2019, 03:53 PM)Aquapod770 Wrote: A very well constructed Whataboutism. 

Is it really that hard to believe Trump and AOC often say absolutely stupid things? 

Nope.

But only one them doesn't all the time. 

[*bfine32*]

(06-20-2019, 04:18 PM)GMDino Wrote: Nope.

But only one them doesn't all the time. 

To be fair, Trump does it quite a bit too.

[GMDino]

(06-20-2019, 04:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: To be fair, Trump does it quite a bit too.

So his non-defenders tell me.  

[fredtoast]

(06-20-2019, 03:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Now this statement may be contradicted later in the report. 

No contradiction.  All ICE detainees are held in civil, not criminal, custody.  This is because they have not been accused of committing any crimes, and that is exactly what Bels said.

[*bfine32*]

(06-20-2019, 04:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No contradiction.  All ICE detainees are held in civil, not criminal, custody.  This is because they have not been accused of committing any crimes, and that is exactly what Bels said.

So they are being detailed for breaking the law but not committing a crime? Thanks.

FWIW, I thought the Trump admin changed it to a crime. 

[*bfine32*]

(06-20-2019, 04:26 PM)GMDino Wrote: So his non-defenders tell me.  

Makes sense that they would. Why the hell would a Trump defender assert he says stupid shit quite often?

[GMDino]

(06-20-2019, 04:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Makes sense that they would. Why the hell would a Trump defender assert he says stupid shit quite often?

Exactly.  

[fredtoast]

(06-20-2019, 04:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So they are being detailed for breaking the law but not committing a crime? Thanks.

No, not necessarily.  Civil detention does not mean you have broken a law.  It just means you are not allowed to enter the country until your request for amnesty has been resolved.  It is not illegal to seek amnesty.

(06-20-2019, 04:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: FWIW, I thought the Trump admin changed it to a crime. 

I am not surprised that that you believe false information.