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(06-20-2019, 04:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So they are being detailed for breaking the law but not committing a crime? Thanks.
FWIW, I thought the Trump admin changed it to a crime.
It's been a crime since 1929.
Bush Jr also improved and made it harder by pushing for an Enforcement with Consequences strategy. Obama kept it going and now Trump is as well.
What I find amusing is it's only an issue under Trump's watch. Obama ramped it up to 400k deportations per year and separated many families in the process.
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(06-20-2019, 04:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So they are being detailed for breaking the law but not committing a crime? Thanks.
Nope. If they are seeking asylum then they are not breaking any laws to be here.
(06-20-2019, 04:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: FWIW, I thought the Trump admin changed it to a crime.
Crossing the border illegally is a crime, being here without proper paperwork is not. That is in the USC and not something that can be changed by executive action alone.
(06-20-2019, 06:11 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: It's been a crime since 1929.
Bush Jr also improved and made it harder by pushing for an Enforcement with Consequences strategy. Obama kept it going and now Trump is as well.
What I find amusing is it's only an issue under Trump's watch. Obama ramped it up to 400k deportations per year and separated many families in the process.
Illegal entry is a crime, being here illegally is not. A person entering to seek asylum is not entering illegally.
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(06-20-2019, 07:55 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Nope. If they are seeking asylum then they are not breaking any laws to be here.
Crossing the border illegally is a crime, being here without proper paperwork is not. That is in the USC and not something that can be changed by executive action alone.
Illegal entry is a crime, being here illegally is not. A person entering to seek asylum is not entering illegally.
What's your estimate to how many asylum seekers that are currently being detained didn't cross the border illegally?
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(06-20-2019, 05:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No, not necessarily. Civil detention does not mean you have broken a law. It just means you are not allowed to enter the country until your request for amnesty has been resolved. It is not illegal to seek amnesty.
I am not surprised that that you believe false information.
Link to anyone that says it's illegal to seek asylum. I have the utmost respect for anyone seeking asylum and going about it the legal way. Unfortunately, they fall further and further down the chain as some folks support those that do it the illegal way. I have 0 respect for someone that thinks they can jump the line; especially if they break the law to do so and probably just below 0 for anyone that supports their actions.
I'm not surprised you spew false information.
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(06-20-2019, 08:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What's your estimate to how many asylum seekers that are currently being detained didn't cross the border illegally?
I don't know, all I know is that those that do come to the border seeking asylum and make it to a checkpoint are being detained in these camps as well.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
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(06-20-2019, 08:33 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't know, all I know is that those that do come to the border seeking asylum and make it to a checkpoint are being detained in these camps as well.
Well that seems to contradict the first line of the report you cited.
I've read we are turning away asylum seekers that are trying to enter legally because we have too many entering illegally. As I said: I have the utmost respect for those families trying to seek asylum the legal way. If they are crossing illegally and then surrendering they are breaking the law. They and anyone that supports them should be ashamed. I would hope no one would try to muddy the 2.
If we are subjecting those that enter legally to such detainment then we should expedite the return of those that come here illegally.
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(06-20-2019, 06:11 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: It's been a crime since 1929.
Bush Jr also improved and made it harder by pushing for an Enforcement with Consequences strategy. Obama kept it going and now Trump is as well.
What I find amusing is it's only an issue under Trump's watch. Obama ramped it up to 400k deportations per year and separated many families in the process.
I went back and re-searched the document that Matt posted that stated folks are detained without a crime. Upon guidance from Fred and him I went back and looked for asylum to see if maybe that was what I was missing. No mention of asylum.
If we are detaining folks that crossed the border legally and seek asylum we need to re-look our processing, if that detention is longer than a couple weeks.
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(06-20-2019, 06:11 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: It's been a crime since 1929.
Bush Jr also improved and made it harder by pushing for an Enforcement with Consequences strategy. Obama kept it going and now Trump is as well.
What I find amusing is it's only an issue under Trump's watch. Obama ramped it up to 400k deportations per year and separated many families in the process.
Bingo. Orange man bad.
I for one, can't wait until he is out of office. I like to think TDS will take a steep down turn, but I have a feeling it's going to stick around longer than it should. 
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(06-20-2019, 06:11 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: It's been a crime since 1929.
Bush Jr also improved and made it harder by pushing for an Enforcement with Consequences strategy. Obama kept it going and now Trump is as well.
What I find amusing is it's only an issue under Trump's watch. Obama ramped it up to 400k deportations per year and separated many families in the process.
400k is the record for a year.
DJT has promised MILLIONS this year...of course no one knows how that will happen.
But thanks for bringing Obama into the discussion. That gives me the opportunity to point out that people complained when he did it too.
https://grassrootsleadership.org/releases/2015/03/nationwide-protests-demand-obama-administration-release-women-and-children-held
https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Hundreds-protest-Obama-s-immigration-policy-in-6238231.php
https://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9067877/family-detention-immigration-flores
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-dont-separate-mommy-protest-sign-real/
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(06-20-2019, 08:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well that seems to contradict the first line of the report you cited.
I've read we are turning away asylum seekers that are trying to enter legally because we have too many entering illegally. As I said: I have the utmost respect for those families trying to seek asylum the legal way. If they are crossing illegally and then surrendering they are breaking the law. They and anyone that supports them should be ashamed. I would hope no one would try to muddy the 2.
If we are subjecting those that enter legally to such detainment then we should expedite the return of those that come here illegally.
I've read that we have been turning away asylum seekers at legal ports of entry, which is illegal for us to do under international guidelines, and so they have crossed at other places and turned themselves in to immigration officials at the first opportunity in an attempt to claim asylum.
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(06-21-2019, 09:38 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've read that we have been turning away asylum seekers at legal ports of entry, which is illegal for us to do under international guidelines, and so they have crossed at other places and turned themselves in to immigration officials at the first opportunity in an attempt to claim asylum.
I was going to say the same yesterday but didn't have a chance to look it up. If my memory serves the Trump Admin has "changed the rules" for what happens at the legal ports of entry and that has led to the increase in detainees.
Like when they closed them for a brief period of time.
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(06-21-2019, 09:42 AM)GMDino Wrote: I was going to say the same yesterday but didn't have a chance to look it up. If my memory serves the Trump Admin has "changed the rules" for what happens at the legal ports of entry and that has led to the increase in detainees.
Like when they closed them for a brief period of time.
It's called a pushback, and it has been going on since 2017 from my understanding. It is against both US and international law.
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(06-21-2019, 09:56 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: It's called a pushback, and it has been going on since 2017 from my understanding. It is against both US and international law.
So can we put the ones breaking US and International law in these camps with the immigrants? 
They can get out any time they want if they agree to follow the law! 
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Anyway...about those camps:
https://www.newsweek.com/migrant-children-border-trump-administration-1445090
Quote:The Trump administration went to court this week to argue that migrant children detained at the United States-Mexico border do not require basic hygiene products like soap and toothbrushes in order to be in held in "safe and sanitary" conditions. Trump's team also argued that requiring minors to sleep on cold concrete floors in crowded cells with low temperatures similarly fulfilled that requirement.
Arguing in a 9th district San Francisco court about the conditions that they must hold migrant children in, the administration said that they did not violate a precedent set by a landmark 1985 class action lawsuit which established guidelines for the way minors held in federal immigration detention must be treated. The case, Jenny Lisette Flores v. Edwin Meese, created rules around the timely release of migrant minors to their parents, and said that those not released must be kept in facilities that are "safe and sanitary."
But on Tuesday, the Justice Department's Sarah Fabian claimed that the ruling did not list specific requirements like "toothbrushes" or "towels," to establish a sanitary condition.
"One has to assume it was left that way and not enumerated by the parties because either the parties couldn't reach agreement on how to enumerate that or it was left to the agencies to determine," Fabian said to the three Clinton-appointed federal judges on the court.
"You're really going to stand up and tell us that being able to sleep isn't a question of safe and sanitary conditions?" U.S. Circuit Judge Marsha Berzon asked Fabian.
Other judges also expressed outrage.
"Are you arguing seriously that you do not read the agreement as requiring you to do anything other than what I just described: cold all night long, lights on all night long, sleeping on concrete and you've got an aluminum foil blanket?" U.S. Circuit Judge
William Fletcher asked Fabian. "I find that inconceivable that the government would say that that is safe and sanitary."
Still, Fabian said that the Trump administration plans to apply for a motion of reconsideration and continue to appeal the ruling.
"Have you considered whether you might go back and consider whether you really want to continue this appeal?" replied Berzon. "There doesn't seem to be a whole lot left of it, considering that life has moved on now. I just feel like we're litigating ancient history at this point."
At least seven migrant children have died in U.S. custody since late 2018 when the president began his policy of detaining them separately from their families. John Sanders, the acting commissioner of Customs and Border Protection warned today that his agency would need at least another $4.6 billion in emergency funding to prevent more deaths.
In an interview with the Associated Press, Sanders said that "The death of a child is always a terrible thing, but here is a situation where, because there is not enough funding … they can't move the people out of our custody."
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(06-21-2019, 09:38 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've read that we have been turning away asylum seekers at legal ports of entry, which is illegal for us to do under international guidelines, and so they have crossed at other places and turned themselves in to immigration officials at the first opportunity in an attempt to claim asylum.
So they crossed illegally. Things around here are like pulling teeth sometimes.
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(06-20-2019, 08:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well that seems to contradict the first line of the report you cited.
(06-20-2019, 09:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I went back and re-searched the document that Matt posted that stated folks are detained without a crime. Upon guidance from Fred and him I went back and looked for asylum to see if maybe that was what I was missing. No mention of asylum.
Did you see this first sentence of the second paragraph?
"All ICE detainees are held in civil, not criminal, custody, which is not supposed to be punitive" (emphasis added)
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(06-21-2019, 03:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So they crossed illegally. Things around here are like pulling teeth sometimes.
Yes. It is amazing how many times I have to explain that there are two different types of law and that a violation of a civil regulation is not a crime. The government can punish you for building a business in an area zoned only for residential use, but that is not a crime.
Some people keep using the terms interchangeably even though I have explained the difference a dozen times. It almost seems like willful ignorance.
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(06-21-2019, 04:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes. It is amazing how many times I have to explain that there are two different types of law and that a violation of a civil regulation is not a crime. The government can punish you for building a business in an area zoned only for residential use, but that is not a crime.
Some people keep using the terms interchangeably even though I have explained the difference a dozen times. It almost seems like willful ignorance.
Well something doesn't add up. I've been told that crossing our border illegally is a crime and now you're telling me crossing our border illegally is not a crime. I'm sure you can understand my confusion.
It's also hard to wrap my head around you can willfully break the law and it not be a crime.
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