There is a significant hole on this team...

[kalibengal]

(08-04-2022, 01:19 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Would have liked it if we had resigned LO, but I do like the talent or upside of the young guys. If they can contribute the pass rush should be decent.

and it stings that Larry O is with Pitt now
I hope he doesnt say "hi" to Burrow in backfield too often this yr.
I did read that Zack Carter (early reports) has been a bit unblockable??

[*ochocincos*]

(08-04-2022, 05:02 PM)kalibengal Wrote: and it stings that Larry O is with Pitt now
I hope he doesnt say "hi" to Burrow in backfield too often this yr.
I did read that Zack Carter (early reports) has been a bit unblockable??

One of the concerns some people had with Carter coming out was that he was somewhat of a tweener being just 282 lbs but 6'4".
Aaron Donald is only 280 lbs but he's only 6'1".

Looks like between the Combine and when he reported to TC (or maybe it was OTAs), Carter has bulked up some to 290 lbs.
I would expect that he'll continue to get near that 300 mark if he's going to be primarily used inside.

If that dude can add even more power and girth to his good athleticism and speed, he could become a good DT.

[treee]

I think it's possible that our pass rush actually improves this year. Our personnel will allow a lot of room for creative blitz packages both inside and on the edge.

[*Go Cards*]

Carter and Ossai will help a lot and may even improve it.

[*bengalfan74*]

(08-04-2022, 07:39 PM)treee Wrote: I think it's possible that our pass rush actually improves this year. Our personnel will allow a lot of room for creative blitz packages both inside and on the edge.

I agree

I've got high hopes for Ossai

[EatonFan]

(08-04-2022, 07:47 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Carter and Ossai will help a lot and may even improve it.

If these two turn up even average, I'm satisfied with them.  No team can have superstars at every position.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-04-2022, 04:48 PM)Synric Wrote: Hearing Zach Carter's name quite a bit coming out of training camp.

And Carman is the only guy being able to block him. Just what I wanted to hear man.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-04-2022, 05:51 PM)ochocincos Wrote: One of the concerns some people had with Carter coming out was that he was somewhat of a tweener being just 282 lbs but 6'4".
Aaron Donald is only 280 lbs but he's only 6'1".

Looks like between the Combine and when he reported to TC (or maybe it was OTAs), Carter has bulked up some to 290 lbs.
I would expect that he'll continue to get near that 300 mark if he's going to be primarily used inside.

If that dude can add even more power and girth to his good athleticism and speed, he could become a good DT.

Thanks Ocho, this makes me feel good about the pass rush, plus your stats you shown including BJ Hill's very good Postseason.

Ossai and ADG are still my guys to really break out on Defense but Carter might be a good player for us hearing this.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(08-04-2022, 02:29 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: You are counting on rookie production for a team that's goal is to win a Super Bowl. Chances are more likely than not that he doesn't come close to filling the production hole left by Ogunjobi. The point remains. 

Obviously much different pedigrees, but Chase was a rookie last season, and he was one of the main reasons we even went to the Super Bowl.

Now, is Carter going to have anywhere near that level of impact? Ofc not. But we’ve seen guys taken in the 3rd and 4th rounds come in and add some decent pass rush as rookies (Lawson, Hubbard).

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-04-2022, 10:23 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Obviously much different pedigrees, but Chase was a rookie last season, and he was one of the main reasons we even went to the Super Bowl.

Now, is Carter going to have anywhere near that level of impact? Ofc not. But we’ve seen guys taken in the 3rd and 4th rounds come in and add some decent pass rush as rookies (Lawson, Hubbard).

Geno too once Thornton benched himself. Stand up thing to do BTW.

I like our coaches much more now and actually have confidence in them starting the best player unlike back in those days.

Dunlap also gave us a very good pass rush as a rookie when called upon.

[Essex Johnson]

(08-04-2022, 12:39 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: and in my opinion, it's going to be the pass rush/secondary.

Both go hand in hand.

In 2020 the Bengals had arguably the worst pass rush in the NFL. They averaged a little over 1 sack a game. The Bengals knew how bad their pass rush was, so they brought in Larry Ogunjobi (7 sacks last year), Trey Hendrickson (14 sacks), and BJ Hill (5.5 sacks). In 2021, they more than doubled that sack per game average to 2.5 per game (11th in the NFL). Their pass rush was exponentially better in 2021 than it was in 2020. You can directly attribute this to the players they added.

Larry Ogunjobi averaged about 70% of the snaps last year, he won't be back on the team this year. BJ Hill averaged 49% of the snaps last year in the same position, effectively backing Larry up.

Here is Larry O's production from last year compared to BJ Hills:






We can argue back and fourth about which one is actually the better player, but one thing is for sure - the Bengals are basically counting on a combination of BJ Hill and Josh Tupuo to replace the production of Larry Ogunjobi and BJ Hill. Do you feel comfortable with Josh Tupuo getting 50% of the snaps next year and providing the kind of production that BJ Hill provided?

That is no bueno, especially for a team looking to make a Super Bowl run. My questions is this: if they felt the need to bring in BOTH BJ Hill and Larry Ogunjobi last year to help with the pass rush, why do they feel comfortable not supplementing BJ Hill with another quality option?

Only time will tell, but I REALLY think this comes back to bite them during the season. I think the pass rush will suffer this year and in turn I think the pass defense will suffer. It all starts with the defensive lines push - which has taken a pretty sizeable step back IMO.

The hole is still oline until they play , we have production from dline from last year to go by but at this point just hope in oline and depth is worse on oline than dline..

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

The pass rush improved the moment LeShaun Sims was no longer a Bengals CB. Carl Lawson had 7 more QB hits than Trey Hendrickson in 2020 but had 5.5 sacks and Trey had 13.5. The QB always had an out with Sims' weak coverage and got rid of the ball much quicker. He started 11 games in 4 years in Tennessee. He started the last 10 games in Cincinnati and hasn't been seen, since. I don't know his 2020 PFF number, I just know that he might have been the worst CB that I have ever seen to start half of a season or more. I may have seen worse, but they didn't start 10 games.

Oh, well. He helped us get Chase. If he was competent, he'd have possibly won a couple of games and knocked them down too far.

Also benefiting from the much better coverage in 2021? BJ Hill. Several nice solo effort sacks but several coverage sacks also. Those didn't happen in 2020.

BJ Hill - 2021-22 highlights

[*SHRacerX*]

(08-04-2022, 12:39 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: and in my opinion, it's going to be the pass rush/secondary.

Both go hand in hand.

In 2020 the Bengals had arguably the worst pass rush in the NFL. They averaged a little over 1 sack a game. The Bengals knew how bad their pass rush was, so they brought in Larry Ogunjobi (7 sacks last year), Trey Hendrickson (14 sacks), and BJ Hill (5.5 sacks). In 2021, they more than doubled that sack per game average to 2.5 per game (11th in the NFL). Their pass rush was exponentially better in 2021 than it was in 2020. You can directly attribute this to the players they added.

Larry Ogunjobi averaged about 70% of the snaps last year, he won't be back on the team this year. BJ Hill averaged 49% of the snaps last year in the same position, effectively backing Larry up.

Here is Larry O's production from last year compared to BJ Hills:






We can argue back and fourth about which one is actually the better player, but one thing is for sure - the Bengals are basically counting on a combination of BJ Hill and Josh Tupuo to replace the production of Larry Ogunjobi and BJ Hill. Do you feel comfortable with Josh Tupuo getting 50% of the snaps next year and providing the kind of production that BJ Hill provided?

That is no bueno, especially for a team looking to make a Super Bowl run. My questions is this: if they felt the need to bring in BOTH BJ Hill and Larry Ogunjobi last year to help with the pass rush, why do they feel comfortable not supplementing BJ Hill with another quality option?

Only time will tell, but I REALLY think this comes back to bite them during the season. I think the pass rush will suffer this year and in turn I think the pass defense will suffer. It all starts with the defensive lines push - which has taken a pretty sizeable step back IMO.

A couple things about the stats.  Ogunjobi didn't play in 16 games, and BJ Hill didn't take as many snaps as Ogunjobi when he was healthy.  I would like to see you calculate these numbers in terms of per snap.  Also, I think Hill was a more reliable run defender.  Ogunjobi seemed to be a little undisciplined in his pass rush at times.  

Also, Tupou is a backup NT, not a 3T.  I think we will most likely see a combination of Hill, 3rd round rookie Carter, Cam Sample, and maybe even Hubbard when Ossai is on the outside.  

When the Bengals have "gone young" and relied on a 2nd year (or sometimes rookie) player over a veteran (Think how Logan Wilson played early) it has generally worked out for them.  In other words, if they don't feel the need to bring in a veteran 3T, I am not going to worry about it.  They still could, but I think they are likely more concerned with the depth at WR.  I am still holding out hope for a Will Fuller signing for about $4 million in one year with incentives.  He would be the best outside threat when Chase moves to the slot.  

The pass rush has the potential to have a significant leap in production by having a rotation with Ossai, a healthy Kareem, and perhaps a rookie like Gunter or 2nd year player (essentially a rookie) Wyatt Hubert could provide a quality rotation.  Ossai could be the single greatest improvement on the defense this year.  

As far as the secondary goes, we don't have to look for a guy to fill an injured starters role like last year.  Apple had a rough start filling in for Trae Waynes.  He progressed as the season wore on, but that was a pretty tall task so early in the season.  We have improved depth behind the starters and a lot of speed.  Three safety looks (assuming Bates plays) could be really fun to watch with Hill.  

Bottom line:  There is no way you look at this year's week 1 starting defense and think it is less than last years.  Lost one guy, replaced him with a guy that everyone thinks is just as good, and added speed and depth at every position except LB.  

[WeezyBengal]

(08-04-2022, 04:38 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Ogunjobi signed for 8 million. He couldn’t pass his physical 2 months ago with Chicago. They offered him 3 million. He was too big of risk. B J played really well In Ogunjobi’s place. They went with the younger and healthier player. Ossai should help. I think you see some interesting packages from Lou. But this time last year everybody was worried deluxe about the pass rush? And? Let’s wait and see.

This isn't a BJ Hill vs Ogunjobi thread. I'm fine with them essentially paying BJ Hill over Ogunjobi. 

This is a thread about the hole left behind by Ogunjobi leaving. That productivity was never replaced. They are counting on an unknown to basically fill that 7 sack, 16 QB hit, 14 tackle for loss void. 

50% of the snaps are going to go to who? Either someone who isn't good or someone we have no idea what they bring to the table (Carter). 

IMO the Bengals didn't do enough to address this in the off-season. They are razor thin at interior DL and it could come back to significantly bite them. 

[WeezyBengal]

(08-04-2022, 07:47 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Carter and Ossai will help a lot and may even improve it.

You have no way of knowing that. They could also suck. 

Sorry, but during this 2-3 year Super Bowl window I'm not willing to chance it on rookies and second year players who have never played a snap in the NFL. 

[WeezyBengal]

(08-04-2022, 07:51 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I agree

I've got high hopes for Ossai

Key word: "Hope" 

[*SHRacerX*]

(08-04-2022, 12:44 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Ideally they’ll get some added production from Ossai and Carter.

I'm hoping for a big step up for Khalid Kareem.  He has flashed but has had a ton of problems staying healthy.  This is his prove it year, or he might find himself without a spot.  I give him the upper hand against the rest of the later round picks (Although Tinsdale is intriguing).  

[*SHRacerX*]

(08-04-2022, 03:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Let's actually compare Hill's total snaps including playoffs to Ogunjobi's snaps.

Ogunjobi - 493 pass rush (PR) snaps
7.0 sacks
16 QB Hits

Hill - 326 regular season PR snaps + 155 PR snaps = 481 PR snaps
7.0 sacks (5.5 regular season + 1.5 postseason)
15 QB Hits

Hill is about the same level as a pass rusher as Ogunjobi.

So really you should be seeing Hill as the Ogunjobi replacement and then a combo of Carter+Sample (+Hubbard?) as the Hill rotational replacement.

This.  And I will add that the talent BEHIND Hill  has a third round pick in Carter, a proven vet in Hubbard (who I think will thrive in this so-called NASCAR package), Cam Sample with another year under his belt, and an intriguing prospect in Tinsdale.  

A couple short years ago, they had DTs off the street and had one of the worst middles of the line in the league.  No longer. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(08-05-2022, 09:12 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Key word: "Hope" 

I have high expectations that Ossai will prove his value as a third round pick, stay healthy, and provide some much needed rotation of top tier DEsx

FWIW, I also can't wait to see him on the field with Hendrickson, and Hubbard rotating inside.  Hubbard seems to love rotating inside and using his speed on guards. 

[fredtoast]

We have a ton of money already tied up in the D-line. That is why we have to depend on Carter, Sample, or some other cheaper option stepping up like Hill did last year.

2021
Hendrickson......$12.5 million cap hit
Reader..............$13.6
Ogunjobi...........$6.2
Hubbard............$3.2 (cap hit, but $11.1 million cash paid on new contract extension)
Hill....................$1.0



2022
Hendrickson....$14.5
Reader............$13.7
Hill.................$8.3
Hubbard..........$7.2
??????.............