There is no proof that Jesus existed

[Griever]

(07-12-2018, 12:22 PM)GMDino Wrote: Yes...creating everything out of thin air and using a man's rib to make women is just like evolution.  

all in 6 days as well

[*michaelsean*]

(07-12-2018, 12:52 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I may be thinking of something else, but I believe it is one of those things that is believed to be falsified because it portrays Jesus more as "what we've come to expect" and less of "what he probably actually looked like."  Basically, Jesus looks like a northern Italian guy from the late 1400's or so since Michelangelo's depictions of him have become the standard when it comes to what we look for as we seek evidence of Jesus.

Not unlike the  manner in which people see ghosts and aliens and what not that coincidentally look like how we expect ghosts and aliens to look due to their depictions on tv, etc.

I' pretty sure they carbon dated it to like the 14th century as well.  I always wanted them to do that, but then was a little sad.  The "what if" was pretty cool and now it's gone.

[*Nately120*]

(07-12-2018, 01:30 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I' pretty sure they carbon dated it to like the 14th century as well.  I always wanted them to do that, but then was a little sad.  The "what if" was pretty cool and now it's gone.

My big "what if" involves what if people actually cared more about being Crist like in action then the miracles and sins and hellfire stuff

[*michaelsean*]

(07-12-2018, 01:36 PM)Nately120 Wrote: My big "what if" involves what if people actually cared more about being Crist like in action then the miracles and sins and hellfire stuff

I'm not as pessimistic.  Most people are decent.  We have our moments when we are not, but overall I think the majority people are inherently good.  

[Dill]

(07-11-2018, 07:09 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I would think that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John could be considered contemporary historians of the era.  There were 12 deciples, but only 4 of them were blessed with the chronicling and retelling of the accounts of Jesus' life.

I don't think they could be considered "historians."

When were their gospels written down? Dates?

[*michaelsean*]

(07-12-2018, 01:40 PM)Dill Wrote: I don't think they could be considered "historians."

When were their gospels written down? Dates?

Well hell we take a lot of our Middle Age history from people a century or two later.  We even use the Sagas.

[Benton]

(07-12-2018, 12:59 PM)Griever Wrote: all in 6 days as well

I think most people believe it was phases of creation, not literal days. Each phase probably last millions of years.

Granted, there are some people who interpret it literally, that He hand-made every star and duck and clover all in the span of six days. But there are still some people who believe the Earth is flat, so I don't think that a minority of a religion is indicative of everyone any more so than a few flat earthers are indicative of all scientists.

[*Nately120*]

(07-12-2018, 01:39 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I'm not as pessimistic.  Most people are decent.  We have our moments when we are not, but overall I think the majority people are inherently good.  

We aren't as decent as a culture that is obsessed with such a peaceful non judgemental deity should be.  

[XenoMorph]

(07-11-2018, 07:09 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I would think that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John could be considered contemporary historians of the era.  There were 12 deciples, but only 4 of them were blessed with the chronicling and retelling of the accounts of Jesus' life.

Yep the 12 disciples followed the sun..


But those are the 12 major Constellations following the Sun...  not 12 dudes following the Son

Religion is still used to control uneducated masses. As its purpose has been from the beginning.

[Dill]

(07-12-2018, 12:48 PM)Millhouse Wrote: There have been some scholars over time question the validity of what Tacitus wrote, but overall most don't consider it fraudulent.

I think the consensus is that Josephus recorded some phrasing from a then existing Christian document.  

http://www.josephus.org/question.htm

[Dill]

(07-12-2018, 01:43 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Well hell we take a lot of our Middle Age history from people a century or two later.  We even use the Sagas.

"Taking history" from sagas is rather different from considering Scops "historians."  Beowulf tells us a lot about the state of Old English language in 1000 CE, as well as customs and modes of address common in 8th-9th Saxon culture, but few think it describes actual battles between humans and monsters/dragons.

I am not disputing the existence of a 1st century Rabbi who became the founder of a dissident Jewish sect, later syncretized with existing Greek  and Roman philosophy/religion over the next three centuries to become a major world religion.

My question regarding the dates is to highlight how much of this narrative is, for us, a matter of scientific, scholarly and even literary reconstruction.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-12-2018, 01:59 PM)Dill Wrote: "Taking history" from sagas is rather different from considering Scops "historians."  Beowulf tells us a lot about the state of Old English language in 1000 CE, as well as customs and modes of address common in 8th-9th Saxon culture, but few think it describes actual battles between humans and monsters/dragons.

I am not disputing the existence of a 1st century Rabbi who became the founder of a dissident Jewish sect, later syncretized with existing Greek  and Roman philosophy/religion over the next three centuries to become a major world religion.

My question regarding the dates is to highlight how much of this narrative is, for us, a matter of scientific, scholarly and even literary reconstruction.

Oh as far as did it happen like they say it did.  Sure questioning that is obvious.  

[Dill]

(07-12-2018, 12:38 PM)Benton Wrote:
The early books are mostly allegorical, and are borrowed from another religion to help followers make sense if the NT. If people 2,000 years later jump into a story about a guy being the living embodiment of God and that he was expected in the other religion, it wouldn't make a ton of sense. The OT also helps set up his intent of showing his people that they — in the long run — do damage to themselves mostly because they stop listening to what he's told them.

Speaking directly to people: "Do all this stuff." [Jews do it for a while, stop doing it and have calamity]
Speaking to Moses: "Here, I dumbed it down. Take these 10 laws, do them." [Jews do them for a while, stop doing it and have calamity]
Speaking as Jesus: "Ok, look, I came here to give it one last try. Forget the long lists. Forget the Big 10. Just love each other. Can you try that?" [The answer was, no. No, we can't.]

Like your condensation of the messages.

As far as "allegory" goes, it is not clear at all that the OT was written as allegory where modern readers want it to be--e.g., the days of creation or Adam's rib, though books like Ezekiel were clearly allegorical to first readers.

Also, to echo you, Benton--neither the OT nor the New appeared one day fully formed and wholly original. Both are reworkings of earlier (non Jewish and non-Christian) religious narratives, re-arranged and fitted together, adapted to current circumstances, and constantly edited over hundreds of years before any decision was rendered on canonical versions.

[Dill]

(07-11-2018, 06:28 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: too many political threads, not enough religious threads.

There is zero archeological evidence that Jesus existed.

Zero contemporary historians mention him. The ‘contemporary’ historians that do mention him came some years later. Josephus, Pliny, Tacitus & other’s that mention him (which is barely a mention) are considered fraudulent; that is to say, that it is accepted by today’s historians that where Jesus is mentioned in these writings, it was added some time later, sometimes centuries later, by someone else (not the original writer).

Jesus wasn’t even his name as Jesus is Roman(Latin?) for Joseph.

So yeah, countless Joseph’s probably lived throughout the ages, including the time of ‘Jesus’, but none as magical as the storied savior.

A quick historical note: In there Mediterranean world of the 1st century, there is nothing like modern media technology (news papers, television, magazines) and nothing like our current institutions for monitoring, recording and writing history.  So absence of contemporary eyewitness evidence is less damning than it would be today if, say, someone claimed that Obama was a religious leader in Kenya during the 1970s, but no one can find any records thereof.

The Jesus we have is "imaginary" in the sense that his image and life have been constructed and reconstructed years after his supposed life. It is possible that he is a compilation of several figures, in terms of his teachings. I don't think there is much reason to doubt there was a significant and creative teacher at the root of Christian doctrine, someone who actually lived.

[Millhouse]

(07-12-2018, 01:44 PM)Benton Wrote: I think most people believe it was phases of creation, not literal days. Each phase probably last millions of years.

Granted, there are some people who interpret it literally, that He hand-made every star and duck and clover all in the span of six days. But there are still some people who believe the Earth is flat, so I don't think that a minority of a religion is indicative of everyone any more so than a few flat earthers are indicative of all scientists.

There are a lot of people that interpret literally though. I think last I saw almost 25% of the population or so thinks the Earth is only 10000 years old, because someone tried to measure up time based from that first day in Genesis.

Heck, there is a freaking Creation museum over in Northern Kentucky that promotes the idea that the Flintstones is basically true, with Fred riding Dino. Well not literally, but man and dinosaurs co-existed.

[BmorePat87]

People are willing to reinterpret text that has been translated and interpreted many times over the past 2000-3000 years in an attempt to assign new meaning that reaffirms their beliefs in light of scientific progress. They're also willing to accept faith that many of these texts were written by contemporaries even when evidence shows us that is not the case.

But when it comes to the characters themselves and not the embellishments of their tales, there is almost always a historical basis on the person. I'm willing to believe that Jesus existed simply because so many people immediately after his death said he existed and were passionate enough to keep talking about him.

That's a bit different from a science fiction writer turning a book into a religion, but even that has tons of people hooked into it.

[*bfine32*]

(07-12-2018, 12:59 PM)Griever Wrote: all in 6 days as well

How long is 6 days if the scale is infinite? many Christians believe that the Universe was not completed in six 24 hour days

[*michaelsean*]

(07-12-2018, 03:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: How long is 6 days if the scale is infinite? many Christians believe that the Universe was not completed in six 24 hour days

Most

[*PhilHos*]

(07-12-2018, 01:40 PM)Dill Wrote: I don't think they could be considered "historians."

When were their gospels written down? Dates?

I believe the earliest known copy of the gospels was a portion of a copy of Mark and it was dated to around 90 A.D. Only around 20 years after the gospel of Mark was supposedly written (70 A.D.).

Also, Luke would definitely be considered a historian since that was the whole purpose of his book. The others, not so mcuh.

[*bfine32*]

Does this sound anything like what we "know" about Evolution:

Day 1: God creates the Universe and our planet (covered in water) out of nothing (Hell it might have even made a Big Bang) and the concept of time:

In the  beginning  God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was  without form, and void; and darkness 1 was on the face of the deep.  And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 Then God said,  "Let there be  light"; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the  darkness He called Night. 2 So the evening and the morning were the first day.

Day 2: God creates a Super Continent on our planet

6 Then God said,  "Let there be a  firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7 Thus God made the firmament,  and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were  above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

Day 3: God divides the continents and the continents bring forth vegetation and fruit

9 Then God said,  "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and  let the dry land appear"; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, "Let the earth  bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the  fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.

Day 4: God places our planet in a Solar System

14 Then God said, "Let there be  lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and  seasons, and for days and years; 15 "and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great 4 lights: the  greater light to rule the day, and the  lesser light to rule the night. He made  the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the  heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to  rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Day 5: God creates life (first fish, then foul)

20 Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living 5 creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the  firmament of the heavens." 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying,  "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Day 6: God creates mammal (first land animals, then man)

24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said,  "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;  let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over  all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him;  male and female He created them.

28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them,  "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and d subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that 8 moves on the earth."  And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed;  to you it shall be for food.  "Also, to  every beast of the earth, to every  bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is  life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so.  Then  God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Day 7: Here we are and he's resting