I suppose I don't have to do this...but it's my coffee break.
(07-12-2018, 03:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Does this sound anything like what we "know" about Evolution:
Day 1: God creates the Universe and our planet (covered in water) out of nothing (Hell it might have even made a Big Bang) and the concept of time:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness 1 was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. 2 So the evening and the morning were the first day.
How was there water with no light?
(07-12-2018, 03:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Day 2: God creates a Super Continent on our planet
6 Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
The predominant theory is that the Earth was rocky and THEN the water came. The exact opposite of this story.
(07-12-2018, 03:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Day 3: God divides the continents and the continents bring forth vegetation and fruit
9 Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.
This said the waters were "gathered into one place". that would imply the supercontinent in #2. But at least they have plants before animals!
(07-12-2018, 03:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Day 4: God places our planet in a Solar System
14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 "and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great 4 lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
So, according to this, the only star was our Sun and then all the other stars? Except we can date the age of the stars and ours is relatively young. And didn't he create night and day in #1?
(07-12-2018, 03:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Day 5: God creates life (first fish, then foul)
20 Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living 5 creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens." 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
This is as close to "evolution" as you can even suggest. Except the story says the fish and the birds were created at the same time. Birds came about after dinosaurs (not mentioned).
(07-12-2018, 03:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Day 6: God creates mammal (first land animals, then man)
24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and d subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that 8 moves on the earth." And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. "Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so. Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Again, reptiles and mammals were around before the birds.
And if god simply *poofed* man onto the earth that is the complete opposite of evolution.
(07-12-2018, 03:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Day 7: Here we are and he's resting
And here we are trying to apply scientific data/facts and evolutionary theories to a story in a religious book becuase that will make some people feel better about believing it. the same people who say it doesn't matter if there is proof that the story true or not because they have faith that it is.
I get the problem of applying things we know to things taken asa true due to faith...I was raised Catholic.
But this story has nothing, nil, to do with "evolution".
Good try though.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(07-12-2018, 03:23 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I believe the earliest known copy of the gospels was a portion of a copy of Mark and it was dated to around 90 A.D. Only around 20 years after the gospel of Mark was supposedly written (70 A.D.).
Also, Luke would definitely be considered a historian since that was the whole purpose of his book. The others, not so mcuh.
Safe to say that texts from which the canonical gospels were derived were set down between 50-90 CE, but likely in many variations. They were handwritten and circulated amongst the faithful. The earliest text fragment we have I think is from 125--that is a fragment, not a whole text. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_106#/media/File:P106-Joh-1_29-35-POxy4445-III.jpg. We do not have any of the original texts.
Luke, like all the Synoptic Gospels, is itself a compilation of other, unnamed sources (Q and L, as well as Mark). I wouldn't call Luke a "history" in the modern sense, but a story or narrative of Jesus life. A religious biography.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
(07-12-2018, 03:51 PM)GMDino Wrote: I suppose I don't have to do this...but it's my coffee break.
1. How was there water with no light?
2. The predominant theory is that the Earth was rocky and THEN the water came. The exact opposite of this story.
3. This said the waters were "gathered into one place". that would imply the supercontinent in #2. But at least they have plants before animals!
4. So, according to this, the only star was our Sun and then all the other stars? Except we can date the age of the stars and ours is relatively young. And didn't he create night and day in #1?
5. This is as close to "evolution" as you can even suggest. Except the story says the fish and the birds were created at the same time. Birds came about after dinosaurs (not mentioned).
6. Again, reptiles and mammals were around before the birds.
And if god simply *poofed* man onto the earth that is the complete opposite of evolution.
And here we are trying to apply scientific data/facts and evolutionary theories to a story in a religious book becuase that will make some people feel better about believing it. the same people who say it doesn't matter if there is proof that the story true or not because they have faith that it is.
I get the problem of applying things we know to things taken asa true due to faith...I was raised Catholic.
But this story has nothing, nil, to do with "evolution".
Good try though.
1. There's water with no light in my basement
2. A theory you say. Could be a molten planet that hardened
3. except the plural seas is used to identify more than one separated by land masses
4. Actually it says lights in heaven then sun and also stars. Nothing suggesting the Sun was first.
5. Actually it states the creatures of the seas before the creatures of the air. Dinosaurs could simply be a transition from sea to air (millions of years to us; yet a blink of an eye on an infinite scale) as we know birds are living dinosaurs.
6. Yeah mammals came along as fish was evolving to bird and the creation of man most likely came through evolution (once again a blink of an eye to him).
is it perfect? No. Can a correlation of general events be drawn: nothing-earth-sea creatures-man? Yes
(07-12-2018, 04:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. There's water with no light in my basement
But there is also heat. No sun, no heat, no water.
(07-12-2018, 04:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 2. A theory you say. Could be a molten planet that hardened
Then how was there water?
(07-12-2018, 04:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 3. except the plural seas is used to identify more than one separated by land masses
Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"
But again, that's closer to something...just not evolution.
(07-12-2018, 04:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 4. Actually it says lights in heaven then sun and also stars. Nothing suggesting the Sun was first.
The sun was day one. Unless there is light and dark with no sun.
(07-12-2018, 04:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 5. Actually it states the creatures of the seas before the creatures of the air. Dinosaurs could simply be a transition from sea to air (millions of years to us; yet a blink of an eye on an infinite scale) as we know birds are living dinosaurs.
We *could* say anything to make a religious story fit into science. But this part of the story ignores the part of the reptiles that became the birds. And if the authors knew about dinosaurs they would have surely mentioned them, I think.
(07-12-2018, 04:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 6. Yeah mammals came along as fish was evolving to bird and the creation of man most likely came through evolution (once again a blink of an eye to him).
Again, if we want to interpret it that way we can make anything fit in to the science. The actual words of the story say god created man. Period. Not that god created something that became man...eventually.
I had a priest teach us one time that it was possible that god created primates and then somewhere along the god split the line to make "humans" which are more like him. I shouldn't say he "taught" us that. He talked about that during an informal Q&A while he was substitute teaching. But it stuck with me.
(07-12-2018, 04:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: is it perfect? No. Can a correlation of general events be drawn: nothing-earth-sea creatures-man? Yes
Sure, we can stretch the story to make it "fit". But it has little to do with "evolution". Creation of the Universe? Eh, closer. Not evolution.
But then I've seen enough History channel shows to know we can fit space aliens into our history to if we look at it right.
I just never got the need to MAKE it fit. It is your* belief. Stick with that. Getting approval from science because it "kinda fits" doesn't help it be more believable. If there is ever scientific proof that the creation story is true that would justify your* faith...but you* don't need the justification.
*"your" and "you" the universal not necessarily you personally.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(07-12-2018, 12:48 PM)Millhouse Wrote: There have been some scholars over time question the validity of what Tacitus wrote, but overall most don't consider it fraudulent.
This is verifiably false. Even if some scholars believe his writings are authentic, others (the vast majority) do not, eliminating Tacitus as proof;if proof is what we seek.
-That which we need most, will be found where we want to visit least.-
(07-12-2018, 05:31 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: This is verifiably false. Even if some scholars believe his writings are authentic, others (the vast majority) do not, eliminating Tacitus as proof;if proof is what we seek.
Quote:Scholars generally consider Tacitus' reference to the execution of Jesusby Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[5][6][7]
Quote:5. Jesus and His Contemporaries: Comparative Studiesby Craig A. Evans 2001 ISBN 0-391-04118-5 page 42
6. Pontius Pilate in History and Interpretation by Helen K. Bond 2004 ISBN 0-521-61620-4 page xi
7. Mercer dictionary of the Bible by Watson E. Mills, Roger Aubrey Bullard 2001 ISBN 0-86554-373-9 page 343[/list]
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The earliest mention of Jesus is the Epistles of Paul, around 50 AD (a lifetime after the death of Jesus). However, these do not mention Jesus the man, only visions. The Gospels first appear around 75 — 115 AD. All other ‘evidence’ comes after 115AD.
So roughly 100 years pass until we see the ‘strongest evidence’ of the existence of Jesus. The life expectancies at the time were roughly 50 yrs. So two lifetimes pass before we see the best evidence. Think about that for a second. Lots of info can be lost over 2 lifetimes.
-That which we need most, will be found where we want to visit least.-
(07-12-2018, 01:45 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Yep the 12 disciples followed the sun..
But those are the 12 major Constellations following the Sun... not 12 dudes following the Son
Religion is still used to control uneducated masses. As its purpose has been from the beginning.
Absolutely factual or not. Religion is what is to the individual following. I was raised going to church, but I don't attend regularly. Do I believe everything my religion says, heck no. Did I ever get good messages and lessons from it's teachings, absolutely. Have I ever doubted the authenticity of religion, yes. Do I work hard to tear it down, nope. Have I ever forced religion on my family, nope. Do I think that religion should be a profit making venture, nope.
Volson is meh, but I like him, and he has far exceeded my expectations
(07-12-2018, 05:05 PM)GMDino Wrote: But there is also heat. No sun, no heat, no water.
Then how was there water?
Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"
But again, that's closer to something...just not evolution.
The sun was day one. Unless there is light and dark with no sun.
We *could* say anything to make a religious story fit into science. But this part of the story ignores the part of the reptiles that became the birds. And if the authors knew about dinosaurs they would have surely mentioned them, I think.
Again, if we want to interpret it that way we can make anything fit in to the science. The actual words of the story say god created man. Period. Not that god created something that became man...eventually.
I had a priest teach us one time that it was possible that god created primates and then somewhere along the god split the line to make "humans" which are more like him. I shouldn't say he "taught" us that. He talked about that during an informal Q&A while he was substitute teaching. But it stuck with me.
Sure, we can stretch the story to make it "fit". But it has little to do with "evolution". Creation of the Universe? Eh, closer. Not evolution.
But then I've seen enough History channel shows to know we can fit space aliens into our history to if we look at it right.
I just never got the need to MAKE it fit. It is your* belief. Stick with that. Getting approval from science because it "kinda fits" doesn't help it be more believable. If there is ever scientific proof that the creation story is true that would justify your* faith...but you* don't need the justification.
*"your" and "you" the universal not necessarily you personally.
(07-12-2018, 06:41 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Absolutely factual or not. Religion is what is to the individual following. I was raised going to church, but I don't attend regularly. Do I believe everything my religion says, heck no. Did I ever get good messages and lessons from it's teachings, absolutely. Have I ever doubted the authenticity of religion, yes. Do I work hard to tear it down, nope. Have I ever forced religion on my family, nope. Do I think that religion should be a profit making venture, nope.
I'm almost completely with you on this.
I do make fun of what I consider the absurd parts though.
We just received a new pastor at our church. I went to high school with him (he's a few years older) and he could get me back more regularly. He's a good man.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
Even if Tacitus is authentic, he’s just echoing the Gospels, in which case renders his quip not an independent source & certainly no proof that Jesus existed.
But Tacitus says Christos, which mean anointed one. Many, many people claimed or was accused ‘the anointed one’.
He doesn’t mention Jesus. Further, he is telling you right up front that it is second hand information. Tacitus offers zero proof that Jesus existed.
-That which we need most, will be found where we want to visit least.-
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