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Threads from the Enemy week 13: Chargers
#21
JJJ, I love this. Eavesdropping on enemy conversations never fails to amuse. Several nuggets from this week:

1. Since Cincinnati is actually located in Antarctica, they're very fearful of the weather.
2. Rashawn Slater is the second coming of Anthony Munoz. Guaranteed to shut down Trey or Sam.
3. Fat Randy lives on....apparently lack of balance was the issue.

"Last year they got lucky when the Bengals' kicker missed the field goal because he wasn't balanced, or else it would of been a loss."
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#22
(11-30-2021, 11:40 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I literally don't know which side you fall on, so I think there's definitely still a debate haha.

Burrow has a slightly higher completion percentage (69.3% vs 66%), yards per attempt average (8.4 vs 7.4), and QB Rating (101.6 vs 96.5), but Herbert has fewer interceptions on more attempts (10 in 438 vs 12 in 339) and has more rushing yards (243 @ 5.7 ypc vs 63 @ 2.5 ypc). He's also taken 9 fewer sacks in the aforementioned 99 more passing attempts than Burrow.

He has a stronger arm, obviously, which gives him a better upside, but I think it's clear that Burrow is more advanced at reading the defense and adjusting the play call accordingly. Kind of like the classic "Cerebral QB" vs "physically gifted QB" discussion.

I don't think we could be farther from determining which player is better, to be honest. They both seem like potential super star QBs who have their own strengths and weaknesses that, in many ways, are the opposite of the other. I don't think it actually matters who is better because they are both great, but I'm not sure how you could say there's no longer a debate on who is the better QB.

I think there is def still debate. It will become more clear in the next couple years. 

I don't agree with the bolded though. Stronger arm =/= better upside. Burrow's arm isn't limiting, he just needs to keep working on mechanics. 

I don't know much about Herbert, so i don't know how apt he is to develop his intermediate game but so far, he's been pretty mediocre there while Burrow excels. The knock on Burrow last year was the deep ball and this year, the gap between him and Herbert is much tighter than the gap is between them in the intermediate throws. 





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#23
(11-30-2021, 02:48 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I think there is def still debate. It will become more clear in the next couple years. 

I don't agree with the bolded though. Stronger arm =/= better upside. Burrow's arm isn't limiting, he just needs to keep working on mechanics. 

I don't know much about Herbert, so i don't know how apt he is to develop his intermediate game but so far, he's been pretty mediocre there while Burrow excels. The knock on Burrow last year was the deep ball and this year, the gap between him and Herbert is much tighter than the gap is between them in the intermediate throws. 

Having Sunday Ticket and them being on the West Coast (later starts), I watched quite a bit of Herbert last year and while his numbers were insane, you would be amazed at how many 50/50 balls he just chucked up and Allen/Williams/whomever else would come down with it more often than not.

It wasn't ONLY that of course, but I was taken aback by the sheer amount of these types of passes that he threw; I've never seen a QB throw that many 50/50 balls before and haven't seen it since (only 1 year, but yeah).

It's why smarts and fundamentals (Burrow) will always trump physical talent (Herbert); put both together though and you have an elite player.
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#24
(11-30-2021, 02:48 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I think there is def still debate. It will become more clear in the next couple years. 

I don't agree with the bolded though. Stronger arm =/= better upside. Burrow's arm isn't limiting, he just needs to keep working on mechanics. 

I don't know much about Herbert, so i don't know how apt he is to develop his intermediate game but so far, he's been pretty mediocre there while Burrow excels. The knock on Burrow last year was the deep ball and this year, the gap between him and Herbert is much tighter than the gap is between them in the intermediate throws. 

If I'm honest, I don't really know the physical limitations of Burrow's arm. I look at the deep pass to Chase against Detroit and I wonder did he just not have enough strength to get the ball into Chase's stride, was it a lack of accuracy issue or was it the pressure that made it so that he didn't get all of his arm into it. Either way, while I don't think his arm strength is an issue like it is with players like Tua, I do think that, if he had a stronger arm, it would undoubtedly open up the playbook more. So when I say "upside" I mean more physical upside. You can't really teach arm strength or speed past a certain point that is usually maxed out by the time a player exits college, but you can teach mechanics that tweak accuracy and you can teach decision making and the ability to read defenses.

Burrow is definitely more accurate than Herbert though. And if I had to take a guy who accurate on intermediate throws and inaccurate on deep throws or vice versa, I'd take the former, which I believe Burrow is.
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#25
(11-30-2021, 03:01 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Having Sunday Ticket and them being on the West Coast (later starts), I watched quite a bit of Herbert last year and while his numbers were insane, you would be amazed at how many 50/50 balls he just chucked up and Allen/Williams/whomever else would come down with it more often than not.

It wasn't ONLY that of course, but I was taken aback by the sheer amount of these types of passes that he threw; I've never seen a QB throw that many 50/50 balls before and haven't seen it since (only 1 year, but yeah).

It's why smarts and fundamentals (Burrow) will always trump physical talent (Herbert); put both together though and you have an elite player.

Watching highlights, it always seemed there were guys running wide open deep last year. 

Did you happen to see the throw at the end of the game last week? He just threw it up in the EZ and his TE came down with it. 





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#26
(11-30-2021, 11:02 AM)motoarch Wrote: Im interested to hear your take.

Obviously I like our guy but I think the general consensus is Herbert still is and has been better even before Burrows injury last year. 

I don't think this was ever really a debate.

There is plenty of time for this to change and long term and I think it will. 

I really haven't seen this consensus favoring Herbert. Not being disrespectful, I just really haven't. It seemed neck and neck prior to injury, then all the Burrow talk went away...but after the hot start for Burrow/Chase this year, I've seen a lot more national love for Burrow than for Herbert. Except from Keyshawn Johnson, but that guy is useless, unintelligent and unfunny.

(11-30-2021, 11:40 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I literally don't know which side you fall on, so I think there's definitely still a debate haha.

Burrow has a slightly higher completion percentage (69.3% vs 66%), yards per attempt average (8.4 vs 7.4), and QB Rating (101.6 vs 96.5), but Herbert has fewer interceptions on more attempts (10 in 438 vs 12 in 339) and has more rushing yards (243 @ 5.7 ypc vs 63 @ 2.5 ypc). He's also taken 9 fewer sacks in the aforementioned 99 more passing attempts than Burrow.

He has a stronger arm, obviously, which gives him a better upside, but I think it's clear that Burrow is more advanced at reading the defense and adjusting the play call accordingly. Kind of like the classic "Cerebral QB" vs "physically gifted QB" discussion.

I don't think we could be farther from determining which player is better, to be honest. They both seem like potential super star QBs who have their own strengths and weaknesses that, in many ways, are the opposite of the other. I don't think it actually matters who is better because they are both great, but I'm not sure how you could say there's no longer a debate on who is the better QB.

The passing numbers favor Burrow almost across the board. Burrow is pushing the ball more, hence the higher YPA and INT%. Longer throws = more risk. But give me the guy who is throwing longer at a higher completion rate.

Seriously...the fact that Burrow is completing 3% more of his throws while throwing longer on average is pretty telling. Herbert should have the better % because hes throwing short (within 5 yards of LOS) roughly twice as much last I checked.

Rush yards are meaningless to me. Herbert isn't Lamar or Cam...and a big chunk of that came on one run.

Arm strength is sooo incredibly overrated. The top QBs of all time are arguably Brady, Montana, Peyton and Brees. None of which had a great arm. All pretty standard issue in that category. Rodgers and Mahomes have cannons. So does Trevor Lawrence.

What good is the arm if Burrow is posting better numbers? Which he definitely is. Even with the INTs. Last I checked, the deep ball numbers also favored Burrow, and Burrow is crushing Herbert on mid-range throws.
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#27
(11-30-2021, 03:17 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: If I'm honest, I don't really know the physical limitations of Burrow's arm. I look at the deep pass to Chase against Detroit and I wonder did he just not have enough strength to get the ball into Chase's stride, was it a lack of accuracy issue or was it the pressure that made it so that he didn't get all of his arm into it. Either way, while I don't think his arm strength is an issue like it is with players like Tua, I do think that, if he had a stronger arm, it would undoubtedly open up the playbook more. So when I say "upside" I mean more physical upside. You can't really teach arm strength or speed past a certain point that is usually maxed out by the time a player exits college, but you can teach mechanics that tweak accuracy and you can teach decision making and the ability to read defenses.

Burrow is definitely more accurate than Herbert though. And if I had to take a guy who accurate on intermediate throws and inaccurate on deep throws or vice versa, I'd take the former, which I believe Burrow is.

That was the talk of the offseason work with Palmer. He tweaked his mech to improve velocity. I don't think he has that muscle memory down yet, which could be a cause of some of the underthrows this year. Hopefully, he keeps working with him and gets that stuff down. 





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#28
(11-30-2021, 01:56 PM)Speedy Thomas Wrote: JJJ, I love this.  Eavesdropping on enemy conversations never fails to amuse.  Several nuggets from this week:

1.  Since Cincinnati is actually located in Antarctica, they're very fearful of the weather.
2.  Rashawn Slater is the second coming of Anthony Munoz.  Guaranteed to shut down Trey or Sam.
3.  Fat Randy lives on....apparently lack of balance was the issue.

"Last year they got lucky when the Bengals' kicker missed the field goal because he wasn't balanced, or else it would of been a loss."

Yeah, I saw that.  Apparently, he was just seconds away from...

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#29
(11-30-2021, 03:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I really haven't seen this consensus favoring Herbert. Not being disrespectful, I just really haven't. It seemed neck and neck prior to injury, then all the Burrow talk went away...but after the hot start for Burrow/Chase this year, I've seen a lot more national love for Burrow than for Herbert. Except from Keyshawn Johnson, but that guy is useless, unintelligent and unfunny.


The passing numbers favor Burrow almost across the board. Burrow is pushing the ball more, hence the higher YPA and INT%. Longer throws = more risk. But give me the guy who is throwing longer at a higher completion rate.

Seriously...the fact that Burrow is completing 3% more of his throws while throwing longer on average is pretty telling. Herbert should have the better % because hes throwing short (within 5 yards of LOS) roughly twice as much last I checked.

Rush yards are meaningless to me. Herbert isn't Lamar or Cam...and a big chunk of that came on one run.

Arm strength is sooo incredibly overrated. The top QBs of all time are arguably Brady, Montana, Peyton and Brees. None of which had a great arm. All pretty standard issue in that category. Rodgers and Mahomes have cannons. So does Trevor Lawrence.

What good is the arm if Burrow is posting better numbers? Which he definitely is. Even with the INTs. Last I checked, the deep ball numbers also favored Burrow, and Burrow is crushing Herbert on mid-range throws.

I don't have access to advanced metrics like intermediate pass completion percentage or percentage of passes within 5 yards of the LOS or any of that, so I'll just take your word for it. Like I said, I don't think either was a bad selection and I definitely don't think the Bengals should look back at 2020 and, in hindsight, wish they took Herbert. For the scheme that we run and the players we have, I think Burrow fits our offense perfectly.

I'm just saying I don't think you can say "It's been decided. Burrow is better" after less than 2 seasons, especially with Burrow's season being cut short in 2020. 

I agree that Joe's yards per attempt being higher is fantastic for us, but I also think that might be a tad bit inflated this year. The long Chase touchdowns against Green Bay and Baltimore (70 yards and 82 yards, respectively), for example, increased his YPA by 0.4 yards all by themselves (2683/337 =7.96, 2835/339 = 8.36). 2 plays, one of which was a prayer that somehow wasn't batted down (it's crazy, the ball was in the exact centimeter it needed to be to not be batted away) and the other which wasn't even a deep throw, account for almost 50% of the difference between Burrow's and Herbert's YPA. Obviously, Herbert is going to have a few of those kinds of plays as well, but my point is YPA isn't the end all be all when it comes to QB efficiency.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the media narrative completely favors Herbert. I think a lot of media give Joe a lot of credit, but I've seen a lot of stories and segments that are eager to call Herbert Elite, like this article, while I haven't really seen that same response to Joe. Joe gets a lot of stories talking about how elite his connection to Chase is, but very few that call him outright "elite" (for whatever that's worth).

And I think the reason the narrative is different between them is because the media loves physical specimens, of which Herbert definitely is. Herbert has one of the strongest arms in the NFL and, while he isn't Lamar Jackson, he's definitely got more than enough speed from the QB position. We'll see if he continues to unlock that part of his game as he develops. Joe isn't as fast as he is, doesn't run as much as Herbert does and doesn't have the cannon that Herbert does. Those things don't make a player elite, but they do make them more interesting to talk about on a tv show.
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#30
(11-30-2021, 03:31 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: That was the talk of the offseason work with Palmer. He tweaked his mech to improve velocity. I don't think he has that muscle memory down yet, which could be a cause of some of the underthrows this year. Hopefully, he keeps working with him and gets that stuff down. 

I was reading those articles during the off season wondering "hmm...is this just fluff? Can you actually meaningfully increase your arm strength as a QB? And, if so, why is not every QB in the NFL doing this?" but man, has it paid dividends so far. Obviously, drafting Chase had a lot to do with that as well, but I think his arm strength has increased across the board from 2020 to 2021. He's going to be the best QB in Bengals history as long as we keep him upright Big Grin.
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#31
My opinion is that both guys ended up with the teams that fit them best and both teams ended up with fantastic players. I think everyone involved should be happy with their QB and I look forward to watching them battle for years to come.
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#32
(11-30-2021, 03:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I really haven't seen this consensus favoring Herbert. Not being disrespectful, I just really haven't. It seemed neck and neck prior to injury, then all the Burrow talk went away...but after the hot start for Burrow/Chase this year, I've seen a lot more national love for Burrow than for Herbert. Except from Keyshawn Johnson, but that guy is useless, unintelligent and unfunny.


The passing numbers favor Burrow almost across the board. Burrow is pushing the ball more, hence the higher YPA and INT%. Longer throws = more risk. But give me the guy who is throwing longer at a higher completion rate.

Seriously...the fact that Burrow is completing 3% more of his throws while throwing longer on average is pretty telling. Herbert should have the better % because hes throwing short (within 5 yards of LOS) roughly twice as much last I checked.

Rush yards are meaningless to me. Herbert isn't Lamar or Cam...and a big chunk of that came on one run.

Arm strength is sooo incredibly overrated. The top QBs of all time are arguably Brady, Montana, Peyton and Brees. None of which had a great arm. All pretty standard issue in that category. Rodgers and Mahomes have cannons. So does Trevor Lawrence.

What good is the arm if Burrow is posting better numbers? Which he definitely is. Even with the INTs. Last I checked, the deep ball numbers also favored Burrow, and Burrow is crushing Herbert on mid-range throws.

Not disrespect taken or given. Friendly, healthy debate.

I'm not saying Herbert is better but a simple search for QB rankings on all the major sports websites will show that Herbert is generally considered better and has been for a along time.  Again I'm not saying I agree with them just that that's what the majority of sports writers think.

He's made up ground on Herbert in many of there eyes but still ranked below.

I think Burrow is underrated by the media but that will change this weekend when the Bengals woop the Chargers.

Even if it's not true that most think Herbert is better and you and I are looking at very different media outlets so we're seeing a different consensus I don't think it's a clear cut burrow is better or Herbert is.  It's still very very close.

I stoked to see them head to head this weekend.
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#33
(11-30-2021, 03:43 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't have access to advanced metrics like intermediate pass completion percentage or percentage of passes within 5 yards of the LOS or any of that, so I'll just take your word for it. Like I said, I don't think either was a bad selection and I definitely don't think the Bengals should look back at 2020 and, in hindsight, wish they took Herbert. For the scheme that we run and the players we have, I think Burrow fits our offense perfectly.

I'm just saying I don't think you can say "It's been decided. Burrow is better" after less than 2 seasons, especially with Burrow's season being cut short in 2020. 

I agree that Joe's yards per attempt being higher is fantastic for us, but I also think that might be a tad bit inflated this year. The long Chase touchdowns against Green Bay and Baltimore (70 yards and 82 yards, respectively), for example, increased his YPA by 0.4 yards all by themselves (2683/337 =7.96, 2835/339 = 8.36). 2 plays, one of which was a prayer that somehow wasn't batted down (it's crazy, the ball was in the exact centimeter it needed to be to not be batted away) and the other which wasn't even a deep throw, account for almost 50% of the difference between Burrow's and Herbert's YPA. Obviously, Herbert is going to have a few of those kinds of plays as well, but my point is YPA isn't the end all be all when it comes to QB efficiency.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the media narrative completely favors Herbert. I think a lot of media give Joe a lot of credit, but I've seen a lot of stories and segments that are eager to call Herbert Elite, like this article, while I haven't really seen that same response to Joe. Joe gets a lot of stories talking about how elite his connection to Chase is, but very few that call him outright "elite" (for whatever that's worth).

And I think the reason the narrative is different between them is because the media loves physical specimens, of which Herbert definitely is. Herbert has one of the strongest arms in the NFL and, while he isn't Lamar Jackson, he's definitely got more than enough speed from the QB position. We'll see if he continues to unlock that part of his game as he develops. Joe isn't as fast as he is, doesn't run as much as Herbert does and doesn't have the cannon that Herbert does. Those things don't make a player elite, but they do make them more interesting to talk about on a tv show.

I've seen a couple more of those this year. Last year, occasionally, i'd go to youtube and just type in "Burrow" or "Herbert" and the segments/articles would be in favor of Burrow about 5/1. People were constantly talking about how elite Burrow was going to be or marvelling at what he was doing as a rookie. I'd say a fair amount of that had to do with him being #1OA, but the talent is def there. 





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#34
(11-30-2021, 03:56 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I was reading those articles during the off season wondering "hmm...is this just fluff? Can you actually meaningfully increase your arm strength as a QB? And, if so, why is not every QB in the NFL doing this?" but man, has it paid dividends so far. Obviously, drafting Chase had a lot to do with that as well, but I think his arm strength has increased across the board from 2020 to 2021. He's going to be the best QB in Bengals history as long as we keep him upright Big Grin.

I think it might have been The Athletic. I'm not sure if you saw the article but what Palmer explained was that Joe was lifting his back foot, which was robbing him of velocity. After a couple exercises, they saw a very real, measurable increase in velocity. 

I'm not sure how much of that mechanism he's retained this year, but i have noticed him on occasion lifting his back foot on intermediate and deep balls this year (i'm kind of tuned into it after reading that article) and i always wonder just how much it's taking away this year. You're basically re-writing that muscle memory that you've done your whole life, so it's probably going to take him another off season or two to make it second nature.





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#35
(11-30-2021, 03:56 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I was reading those articles during the off season wondering "hmm...is this just fluff? Can you actually meaningfully increase your arm strength as a QB? And, if so, why is not every QB in the NFL doing this?" but man, has it paid dividends so far. Obviously, drafting Chase had a lot to do with that as well, but I think his arm strength has increased across the board from 2020 to 2021. He's going to be the best QB in Bengals history as long as we keep him upright Big Grin.

I thought i remembered "54". Here's a piece from the original article and since Joe didn't throw at the combine, here are the other QBs and their velocity.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2021/7/24/22590810/bengals-news-jordan-palmer-joe-burrow-training-arm-strength-nfl

https://www.ourlads.com/story/default/Quarterback-Ball-Velocity-at-NFL-Combine-2008-2017/10243/dh/





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#36
(11-29-2021, 08:58 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: Also, last week's edition of this thread was pretty much dead. That's okay. Some things run their course. If, however, this "threads from the enemy" thing is no longer of interest, let me know! If there's one thing this board doesn't need, it's more threads.

Tongue

please keep doing this. I do it on my own when i dont see it so i must have missed last weeks.  i dont reply to the thread but i for sure use it as my starting point on monday or tuesday.
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#37
At this point I will surely continue. It's What The People Want. But thanks gang, glad to be the resident snooper.
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#38
(11-30-2021, 03:43 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't have access to advanced metrics like intermediate pass completion percentage or percentage of passes within 5 yards of the LOS or any of that, so I'll just take your word for it. Like I said, I don't think either was a bad selection and I definitely don't think the Bengals should look back at 2020 and, in hindsight, wish they took Herbert. For the scheme that we run and the players we have, I think Burrow fits our offense perfectly.

I'm just saying I don't think you can say "It's been decided. Burrow is better" after less than 2 seasons, especially with Burrow's season being cut short in 2020. 

I agree that Joe's yards per attempt being higher is fantastic for us, but I also think that might be a tad bit inflated this year. The long Chase touchdowns against Green Bay and Baltimore (70 yards and 82 yards, respectively), for example, increased his YPA by 0.4 yards all by themselves (2683/337 =7.96, 2835/339 = 8.36). 2 plays, one of which was a prayer that somehow wasn't batted down (it's crazy, the ball was in the exact centimeter it needed to be to not be batted away) and the other which wasn't even a deep throw, account for almost 50% of the difference between Burrow's and Herbert's YPA. Obviously, Herbert is going to have a few of those kinds of plays as well, but my point is YPA isn't the end all be all when it comes to QB efficiency.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the media narrative completely favors Herbert. I think a lot of media give Joe a lot of credit, but I've seen a lot of stories and segments that are eager to call Herbert Elite, like this article, while I haven't really seen that same response to Joe. Joe gets a lot of stories talking about how elite his connection to Chase is, but very few that call him outright "elite" (for whatever that's worth).

And I think the reason the narrative is different between them is because the media loves physical specimens, of which Herbert definitely is. Herbert has one of the strongest arms in the NFL and, while he isn't Lamar Jackson, he's definitely got more than enough speed from the QB position. We'll see if he continues to unlock that part of his game as he develops. Joe isn't as fast as he is, doesn't run as much as Herbert does and doesn't have the cannon that Herbert does. Those things don't make a player elite, but they do make them more interesting to talk about on a tv show.

1.5 years is too soon to say who's better when both have played well. I'll give you that.

I'm not sure what you want to judge them on though. You key in on YPA and try to discredit it by removing plays, but you'd have to remove 4 long bombs to make Joe's YPA similar to Justin's? Like you said, those plays happen, and they happen for Justin as well. Tbh, last time I looked, their deep ball stats were similar. So really the mid range throws are the difference.

Burrow's comp % is 3.3% higher. His YPA is a full yard higher. His passer rating is 5.1 points better. He even has a higher grade from PFF, albeit by a slight margin (0.4).

As far as the media love, maybe we just go to different sites and watch different shows? I rarely see anybody talk about Herbert. Joe always comes up. I've seen him compared to Montana, Brady, etc.

(11-30-2021, 03:57 PM)motoarch Wrote: Not disrespect taken or given. Friendly, healthy debate.

I'm not saying Herbert is better but a simple search for QB rankings on all the major sports websites will show that Herbert is generally considered better and has been for a along time.  Again I'm not saying I agree with them just that that's what the majority of sports writers think.

He's made up ground on Herbert in many of there eyes but still ranked below.

I think Burrow is underrated by the media but that will change this weekend when the Bengals woop the Chargers.

Even if it's not true that most think Herbert is better and you and I are looking at very different media outlets so we're seeing a different consensus I don't think it's a clear cut burrow is better or Herbert is.  It's still very very close.

I stoked to see them head to head this weekend.

Tbh I did just search QB rankings for this week and the first 4 I clicked all had Herbert ahead of Burrow. Maybe they haven't paid as much attention this year and are clinging to what happened last year? Burrow has outplayed Herbert in 2021. Not by a mile or anything, but enough to notice.

Of course, you also have the LA vs Cincy markets...but I swear it seems like Burrow and the Bengals are a topic far more often than the Chargers and Herbert. Now I'm confused. LOL
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#39
(11-29-2021, 08:58 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: Also, last week's edition of this thread was pretty much dead. That's okay. Some things run their course. If, however, this "threads from the enemy" thing is no longer of interest, let me know! If there's one thing this board doesn't need, it's more threads.

Tongue

I don't always respond to this thread but I always read it.  It's a good concept.  Keep it going.
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#40
(12-01-2021, 12:32 AM)motoarch Wrote: I don't always respond to this thread but I always read it.  It's a good concept.  Keep it going.

Ditto. I read and follow it every week. 





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