Macron: EU needs joint budget, joint military.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-28-2017, 08:09 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So that's a yes.

Also, the Council is made up of representatives of the elected governments of each member nation. They, along with the EUP (which is directly elected), elect the Commission. This makes the Commission an elected body indirectly by the people of the EU. Even though they propose legislation, Parliament must still vote on the legislation to pass it.

Claims the EU is undemocratic are false.


The Germans are one of 28 member nations. They have one vote out of 28 in the Council and the Commission. There are 751 seats in the EUP, of which Germany has 96, or 12.8%.

How are they taking away everyone's sovereignty?

EUMP's can not put forth any legislation for a vote. The commission has no one to answer to and is not directly elected by the people.

There is no debate of in the European Parliment on any legislation by those directly elected by the people. .

If you do not believe the Germans are controlling the EU then please post any legislation that has been hurtful to German Interests and helpful to other members of the EU. We can certainly find plenty that harm other members and not the Germans.

[Belsnickel]

(09-28-2017, 08:44 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: EUMP's can not put forth any legislation for a vote. The commission has no one to answer to and is not directly elected by the people.

There is no debate of in the European Parliment on any legislation by those directly elected by the people. .

If you do not believe the Germans are controlling the EU then please post any legislation that has been hurtful to German Interests and helpful to other members of the EU. We can certainly find plenty that harm other members and not the Germans.

You're making the claim the Germans control the EU. So far you have done nothing but make claims the EU is undemocratic and have not provided anything to back up your claim. I don't have to provide anything, it's your claim.

As for the lack of debate, that is incorrect. There is debate on the legislation, how would they be able to provide the amendments without debate?

[StLucieBengal]

(09-28-2017, 09:37 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You're making the claim the Germans control the EU. So far you have done nothing but make claims the EU is undemocratic and have not provided anything to back up your claim. I don't have to provide anything, it's your claim.

As for the lack of debate, that is incorrect. There is debate on the legislation, how would they be able to provide the amendments without debate?

I have proven that the Germans pull the strings. There is no legislation put forth by he EU that hurts German interests. Heck they have destroyed the Med region to further their own interests.

[GMDino]

(09-29-2017, 01:15 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I have proven that the Germans pull the strings.   There is no legislation put forth by he EU that hurts German interests.    Heck they have destroyed the Med region to further their own interests.

In all your responses I found two news articles that Matt discussed and weren't proof of anything.

Just admit it's an opinion...not a fact...and that its a matter of a love for Russia over Europe.

[Belsnickel]

(09-29-2017, 01:15 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I have proven that the Germans pull the strings. There is no legislation put forth by he EU that hurts German interests. Heck they have destroyed the Med region to further their own interests.

You have proven nothing. You seem to not understand what evidence of fact is.

Edit to add: In truth, I don't deny that the German government holds a lot of sway in the EU, but that doesn't refute that the rest of the countries can shoot them down with ease based on numbers alone. So it would seem that the other EU governments see a benefit in Germany leading the way.

[GMDino]

(09-29-2017, 09:18 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You have proven nothing. You seem to not understand what evidence of fact is.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-29-2017, 09:07 AM)GMDino Wrote: In all your responses I found two news articles that Matt discussed and weren't proof of anything.

Just admit it's an opinion...not a fact...and that its a matter of a love for Russia over Europe.

lol this is rich coming from you.

Just because we question the EU and the Germans doesn't mean it has anything to do with being pro or against Russia. These are two different topics all together.

You blame the Russians for everything you possibly can

[StLucieBengal]

(09-29-2017, 09:18 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You have proven nothing. You seem to not understand what evidence of fact is.

Edit to add: In truth, I don't deny that the German government holds a lot of sway in the EU, but that doesn't refute that the rest of the countries can shoot them down with ease based on numbers alone. So it would seem that the other EU governments see a benefit in Germany leading the way.

Maybe you should ask the Mediterranean nations.

[GMDino]

(09-29-2017, 10:20 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: lol this is rich coming from you.  

Why? Or is this just another in a long line of personal opinions with no basis in fact?

(09-29-2017, 10:20 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Just because we question the EU and the Germans doesn't mean it has anything to do with being pro or against Russia.    These are two different topics all together.    

Except it has been made clear that you are pro-russia. So it ties in with the topic at hand.

(09-29-2017, 10:20 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You blame the Russians for everything you possibly can

Again, no. That an opinion based on a personal bias.

[Belsnickel]

(09-29-2017, 10:22 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Maybe you should ask the Mediterranean nations.

Maybe you should ask all 28 member nations.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-29-2017, 10:29 AM)GMDino Wrote: Why? Or is this just another in a long line of personal opinions with no basis in fact?


Except it has been made clear that you are pro-russia. So it ties in with the topic at hand.


Again, no. That an opinion based on a personal bias.

Am I pro Russia or rather am I just pro good relations with Russia.

I do believe that China and Germany will be next enemies of the world. It would be wise of the US to not fall on the wrong side. Iran will also be in there as well.

The Mediterranean countries are already getting cozy with Russia in preparation for when the Germans finally turn on them for good.

[Arturo Bandini]

(09-29-2017, 02:32 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Am I pro Russia or rather am I just pro good relations with Russia.  

I do believe that China and Germany will be next enemies of the world.   It would be wise of the US to not fall on the wrong side.    Iran will also be in there as well.  

The Mediterranean countries are already getting cozy with Russia in preparation for when the Germans finally turn on them for good.

Thanks for the laughs.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-29-2017, 10:53 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Maybe you should ask all 28 member nations.

Poland, Hungry, UK, Greece, Spain, Italy and others seem to agree with me. Even 42% of the French side with me.

The best part is the median results. 49% of Europeans feel Germany has too much influence.

Pretty sure Poland and Hungry know when the Germans are getting too powerful.

[Belsnickel]

(09-29-2017, 02:41 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Poland, Hungry, UK, Greece, Spain, Italy and others seem to agree with me. Even 42% of the French side with me.

The best part is the median results. 49% of Europeans feel Germany has too much influence.

Pretty sure Poland and Hungry know when the Germans are getting too powerful.

Then they can make changes with their votes, by contacting their governments, etc. The German representatives in the EU must rely on allies within the organization to get anything done, so if the governments of those countries stop voting with Germany, change will happen.

You're not posting anything that refutes me.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

A few things.  There is no question that Germany benefits immensely from the EU and its shared currency.  There is equally no question that Germany, as the most populated country in the EU and the strongest economy, by far, has the most weight to throw around within the EU.  There is a lot of complaint that Germany's currency advantage is unfair, as their currency is affected by less robust (to put it kindly) economies like Greece and Eastern European countries.

St. Lucie has been pushing the evil Germany trope for some time.  It is honestly one of the most inane theories I have ever heard.  Germany is not a country that we have to worry about carrying out aggressive, anti-democratic, foreign policy.  The desire to be the biggest dog in your particular kennel is normal and in no way an indicator of aggressive current or future intent.  Russia is a concern to regional nations, but they have no ability to project power very far from the borders of their country.  The only threat Russia represents to the US as a military power is in partnership with China.

As to the thread topic, I don't see a EU military, under a single command, ever being an actual thing.  For one there is too much national history in Europe, over a thousand years of it in many cases, to subsume completely to a federal power structure.  Eastern Europe in particular is very distrustful of an overreaching EU, and their sentiments in this regard are shared to varying degrees by other nations like Greece.  A better alternative would be for the NATO nations to actually spend the agreed upon percentage of their GDP instead of being essentially subsidized by US defense spending.  The logistics involved in a conglomerate military with that many culturally (language, military tradition/discipline) different nations would be immense.  Not only that, but who, ultimately is in charge of such a force, who gets to decide were, when and under what conditions it is deployed?  Would Poland object to a military intervention that France is proposing.  Even more likely, would Germany make any deployment of military forces difficult due to their martial history and desire to atone for it?

Bottom line, I don't think it's a workable idea. 

[StLucieBengal]

(09-29-2017, 03:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: A few things.  There is no question that Germany benefits immensely from the EU and its shared currency.  There is equally no question that Germany, as the most populated country in the EU and the strongest economy, by far, has the most weight to throw around within the EU.  There is a lot of complaint that Germany's currency advantage is unfair, as their currency is affected by less robust (to put it kindly) economies like Greece and Eastern European countries.

St. Lucie has been pushing the evil Germany trope for some time.  It is honestly one of the most inane theories I have ever heard.  Germany is not a country that we have to worry about carrying out aggressive, anti-democratic, foreign policy.  The desire to be the biggest dog in your particular kennel is normal and in no way an indicator of aggressive current or future intent.  Russia is a concern to regional nations, but they have no ability to project power very far from the borders of their country.  The only threat Russia represents to the US as a military power is in partnership with China.

As to the thread topic, I don't see a EU military, under a single command, ever being an actual thing.  For one there is too much national history in Europe, over a thousand years of it in many cases, to subsume completely to a federal power structure.  Eastern Europe in particular is very distrustful of an overreaching EU, and their sentiments in this regard are shared to varying degrees by other nations like Greece.  A better alternative would be for the NATO nations to actually spend the agreed upon percentage of their GDP instead of being essentially subsidized by US defense spending.  The logistics involved in a conglomerate military with that many culturally (language, military tradition/discipline) different nations would be immense.  Not only that, but who, ultimately is in charge of such a force, who gets to decide were, when and under what conditions it is deployed?  Would Poland object to a military intervention that France is proposing.  Even more likely, would Germany make any deployment of military forces difficult due to their martial history and desire to atone for it?

Bottom line, I don't think it's a workable idea. 

Germany has been financially crushing the rest of the EU with its exports. The Euro is just bad for everyone except Germany.

Germany isn't a concern until they get the military they are unable to currently have more than 370,000 personnel. Nor Nukes or chemical weapons. If an EU army is formed they will have access to those and if they have power over EU decisions they would be exceeding their limits. There are carve outs for the EU army in the Lisbon Treaty..... and which was voted down but forced through the back door by the Germans in the EU.

The plans for the EU were a long term goal of Hitler and the Nazi's. If it was still only a trade union then it would be of no concern. But now they override laws of each country, force open the borders, regulate the heck out of every industry.

Next move is to form the EU army so they can secure the borders from the migrant rush that the Germans unleashed onto Europe.


As to my belief Germany is headed towards being an enemy. As I have posted I am not the only one who thinks they have too much control in Europe. The Polish are beside themselves

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-29-2017, 03:39 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Germany has been financially crushing the rest of the EU with its exports.   The Euro is just bad for everyone except Germany.

Not quite how I would put it, at all, but I did address this point in the post you just quoted. 

Quote:Germany isn't a concern until they get the military they are unable to currently have more than 370,000 personnel.  Nor Nukes or chemical weapons.   If an EU army is formed they will have access to those and if they have power over EU decisions they would be exceeding their limits.    There are carve outs for the EU army in the Lisbon Treaty..... and which was voted down but forced through the back door by the Germans in the EU.  

You engage in several, substantial suppositions with this statement.  You are, I think unintentionally, asking a question I just asked, again in the post you quoted, which was who decides when, where and how said military is used and by who?

Quote:The plans for the EU were a long term goal of Hitler and the Nazi's.   If it was still only a trade union then it would be of no concern.   But now they override laws of each country, force open the borders, regulate the heck out of every industry.

 
It's a good thing that Hitler and the Nazis are no longer in power then, huh?

Quote:Next move is to form the EU army so they can secure the borders from the migrant rush that the Germans unleashed onto Europe.  

This statement makes no sense in conjunction with the rest of your post.  You'll need to explain a bit.

Quote:As to my belief Germany is headed towards being an enemy.   As I have posted I am not the only one who thinks they have too much control in Europe.   The Polish are beside themselves

Poland has valid concerns, Germany turning into an aggressive military power subduing them by force of arms is not one of them.  Political domination is not the same as domination backed by force of arms.  There is literally nothing in Germany's foreign policy, stated or enacted, that would lead any sane person to conclude they are edging towards an aggressive militant form of foreign interaction.  You'll need to hold off on these accusations until a piece or two of supporting evidence bob to the surface.  As of now you have nothing but irrational fear mongering based on Germany's martial past.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-29-2017, 04:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Not quite how I would put it, at all, but I did address this point in the post you just quoted. 



You engage in several, substantial suppositions with this statement.  You are, I think unintentionally, asking a question I just asked, again in the post you quoted, which was who decides when, where and how said military is used and by who?


 
It's a good thing that Hitler and the Nazis are no longer in power then, huh?



This statement makes no sense in conjunction with the rest of your post.  You'll need to explain a bit.


Poland has valid concerns, Germany turning into an aggressive military power subduing them by force of arms is not one of them.  Political domination is not the same as domination backed by force of arms.  There is literally nothing in Germany's foreign policy, stated or enacted, that would lead any sane person to conclude they are edging towards an aggressive militant form of foreign interaction.  You'll need to hold off on these accusations until a piece or two of supporting evidence bob to the surface.  As of now you have nothing but irrational fear mongering based on Germany's martial past.

1. As for The Who, what, when, where...... this goes back to how Germany dominates every EU decision why would they not have the same influence on this as well. It's reasonable to assume they would given they have these over what was in he Lisbon Treaty. Until I see where they have less of a say on an EU military then I will be on alert. If they ha e less then ofc I will drop some of these concerns.

2. Pointing out that the EU was drawn up by the Nazi's is only demonstrating the log game Germany has been playing in regards to Europe. Nothing more. I contend they have been playing this long game since the fall of the Third Reich.

3. Merkel has told all migrants to come to Germany and Europe. She is now using the EU to force countries to take these migrants causing great strain on them economically. Germany is able to withstand the costs due to their currency manipulation along with their high export market. They have basically economically crushed the Mediterranean nations with these migrants. Countries like Poland, Hungry, and others have pushed back pretty hard because they see what is happening. They have been on the other end of Germans intentionally putting stress on other nations. I contend The EU army once implemented will be used to help assist at the borders to "clean up" the migrant mess that the Germans stirred up. They stirred this up to push the EU army.

4. On German aggression...... first they implemented a trade union which drew nations in to work on trade. That spreads to now the EU overrides laws of member countries. The EU has opened borders where these countries can not control who comes or goes. Germans have been economically aggressive to each EU member. Weakening every other country in the EU. While they fatten their coffers. Today's war isn't necessarily marching troops across borders..... they have been weakening European nations for decades and now flooded Europe with third world economic migrants to put pressure in each country to have the need for a common military. Even Tony Blair, has stated the EU is not a project about peace it's a project about power.

As for my jumping to some conclusions. I am foreshadowing problems because the path is there along with the history. I called out the rise of National Front, Brexit, 5 star movement in Italy, Golden Dawn in Greece. When I mentioned these on the board I was also called a fear monger who is jumping to conclusions. Just as you are today with this matter. All I have done is follow the news, tie it into the history, and listen to what leaders are saying. i also raised questions when Putin was having extensive meetings with Italy.

This is also why I feel it's a positive to have a working relationship with Russia. If Germany does do what it's always done then we will need the Russians to push back on the Germans and Chinese. And if the Germans never bring the Fourth Reich as I believe they may then it still is a positive to work with Russia on things we can work together.