Time to jettison Duke Tobin.

[*bengalfan74*]

Duke Tobin isn't anything remotely close to a real GM.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-06-2018, 01:13 AM)impactplaya Wrote: the Bengals have missed the playoffs the last 3 years.
a think some new blood in the front office and coaching ranks can take the existing talent with a monster 2018 Draft and get the team back on the rails

The likelihood of this organization having a "monster" draft is low. At best, they'll probably get 3 quality contributors as rookies. More than likely it will be 1-2. However, this team will need RG, RT, TE, LB, and slot CB at minimum. They need to pull in 1-2 high-quality FAs if they are going to really get back on the rails quickly.

[Hoofhearted]

2014
Rd Pick Name Position
1 24 Darqueze Dennard CB
2 23 Jeremy Hill RB
3 24 Will Clarke DE
4 11 Russel Bodine C
5 24 AJ McCarron QB
6 36 Marquise Flowers OLB
7 37 Lavelle Westbrooks CB

2015
Rd Pick Name Position
1 21 Cedric Ogbuehi OT
2 21 Jake Fisher OT
3 21 Tyler Kroft TE
3 35 Paul Dawson ILB
4 21 Josh Shaw CB
4 36 Marcus Hardison DE
5 21 C.J. Uzomah TE
6 21 Derron Smith FS
7 21 Mario Alford WR

2016
Rd Pick Name Position
1 24 William Jackson CB
2 24 Tyler Boyd WR
3 24 Nick Vigil ILB
4 24 Andrew Billings NT
5 24 Christian Westerman OG
6 24 Cody Core WR
7 24 Clayton Fejedelem S

2017
Rd Pick Name Position
1 9 John Ross WR
2 16 Joe Mixon RB
3 9 Jordan Willis OLB
4 9 Carl Lawson OLB
4 22 Josh Malone WR
4 32 Ryan Glasgow DT
5 9 Jake Elliott K
5 33 J.J. Dielman C
6 9 Jordan Evans LB
6 23 Brandon WIlson RB
7 33 Mason Shreck TE

2018
Rd Pick Name Position
1 21 Billy Price C
2 22 Jessie Bates S
3 13 Sam Hubbard DE
3 14 Malik Jefferson OLB
4 12 Mark Walton RB
5 14 Devontae Harris CB
5 21 Andrew Brown DT
5 33 Darius Phillips CB
7 31 Logan Woodside QB
7 34 Rod Taylor G
7 35 Auden Tate WR

Outside 2015 (puke), I think these drafts are solid. I don't have many complaints about the drafting from Duke. If Price can turn it around, they've pretty much nailed the first three rounds last three drafts, and even found a gem in Fej (compared to where he was drafted).

[Hoofhearted]

(12-06-2018, 11:17 AM)ochocincos Wrote: The likelihood of this organization having a "monster" draft is low. At best, they'll probably get 3 quality contributors as rookies. More than likely it will be 1-2. However, this team will need RG, RT, TE, LB, and slot CB at minimum. They need to pull in 1-2 high-quality FAs if they are going to really get back on the rails quickly.

Yeah, honestly 2020 is probably the next time this team is really knocking on the door. Maybe 2021. With AD & ML contract coming to a crossroads yet again (no dead cap hit for AD after this year), this off-season will be very, very telling on where this franchise is heading (rebuild or staying put).

[*ochocincos*]

(12-06-2018, 11:25 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Yeah, honestly 2020 is probably the next time this team is really knocking on the door. Maybe 2021. With AD & ML contract coming to a crossroads yet again (no dead cap hit for AD after this year), this off-season will be very, very telling on where this franchise is heading (rebuild or staying put).

I know I'm likely in the minority here, but I really thought Hue was building a really good team up in Cleveland. They were lacking so many pieces when he first came in that anyone who expected a quick turnaround there was delusional. The Browns got some good draft picks while he was there (Garrett, Ward, Mayfield, Chubb, Schobert, Ogunjobi, Njoku) and brought in some good FAs too. Their arrow is pointing up for sure.

I bring this up because I think the Bengals might need to follow suit to a certain extent. This upcoming rebuild (whether it's 2019, 2020, or 2021) is going to take some time because of the failed/undeveloped draft picks, lack of quality FAs brought in, and aging core of the team. The Bengals fanbase might have to buckle up for a few rough years in order to make that rebuild a reality. Hue might be a good person to get that rebuild going, and I think Mike Brown might give him enough leeway to actually see a rebuild all the way through.

[3wt]

(12-05-2018, 03:05 PM)eoxyod Wrote: I mean he doesn't have the worst track record with 1st round picks. And he is limited in being able to do things such as sign free agents due to the rest of the front office being run by dumbasses

But just first round picks going back to 2011 which is where his influence may have been felt by the team you have:
AJ - HIT
Kirkpatrick - good enough? Not bad but not the greatest
Zeitler - HIT
Eifert - Unlucky to have the injury problems but still probably a hit from a personnel standpoint
Dennard - Miss
Ogbuehi - Loloololololol
WJ3 - HIT
Ross - At least a good player when people get their heads out of their asses and see the things he can do if we had a QB that could hit him
Price - Miss so far

That's not a terrible track record, and he's still had some hits and misses otherwise obviously. But, he cannot be blamed for Sanu, Jones, Whit, and Zeitler leaving in free agency. In fact it only puts more pressure on him to have to hit every single draft, and the draft is a huge crapshoot after the first round (And generally). Teams have really bad drafts sometimes. Getting a few good players is striking gold. That being said the 2014-15 drafts loom large and overall have hurt the team. But when there has been success outside of that it is hard to put a ton of blame on the guy. He had the right strategy in drafting 2 OTs, it just worked out terribly

Eifert - A stud even after all his injuries with the luck of the Flying Walendas
Dennard - A decent player with too many injuries and not enough continuity
Ross - a project that I think pans out - again complicated by injuries and coaching bias.
Price - A good player that needs a time and reps to pan out, but I think very much will.   Lots of good linemen took time to pan out including DeCastro and lots of first round tackles.   I think Ragnow (my pre-draft fave) has had his share of problems at guard.

Fails include  Dawson (who never really got the snaps to prove himself, but clearly was a head case in practice, Billings who apparently was never a real smart dude, is undisciplined and ends up on the ground too much (and even he is improving), Still, Hardison, Jefferson and obviously Og & Fish.  And that is not a complete list.

But they have a decent percentage of good picks.   Most of the good teams had their share of fails.

[Hoofhearted]

(12-06-2018, 11:58 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I know I'm likely in the minority here, but I really thought Hue was building a really good team up in Cleveland. They were lacking so many pieces when he first came in that anyone who expected a quick turnaround there was delusional. The Browns got some good draft picks while he was there (Garrett, Ward, Mayfield, Chubb, Schobert, Ogunjobi, Njoku) and brought in some good FAs too. Their arrow is pointing up for sure.

I bring this up because I think the Bengals might need to follow suit to a certain extent. This upcoming rebuild (whether it's 2019, 2020, or 2021) is going to take some time because of the failed/undeveloped draft picks, lack of quality FAs brought in, and aging core of the team. The Bengals fanbase might have to buckle up for a few rough years in order to make that rebuild a reality. Hue might be a good person to get that rebuild going, and I think Mike Brown might give him enough leeway to actually see a rebuild all the way through.

Yep, but then they have a very hard decision on what to do with AD. He'll be on the back 9 while all the young guns are on the front 9. Their arrow is pointing mostly up because they finally got a decent QB. 

But if they hire Hue, that'll be the last straw for a lot of fans. ALOT.

[3wt]

(12-05-2018, 04:09 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Also, coaches i think have some say in the picks. I think PA had a say in the Og bust pick.

I wouldn't call Dennard a miss either, he just couldn't stay healthy. Fisher had the heart problem which made him
as the backup pick to Og not happen. I think the Lawson pick and both the Bates and Hubbard picks were great
picks. Cannot put everything on Tobin and if you do you have to admit the good picks too.

Yeah, I don't think he just stood on the table, I think he took his piano up there with him.

He was just totally drooling about Og after he was drafted and never backed off on the selection.

I don't think that fail was really on anyone but Alexander.   He had an impressive record over time, was the assistant head coach and he obsessed on Og like Ahab riding the white whale down to the grave.

According to Rappaport he is beckoning still...

[THE PISTONS]

(12-06-2018, 11:19 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: 2014
Rd Pick Name Position
1 24 Darqueze Dennard CB
2 23 Jeremy Hill RB
3 24 Will Clarke DE
4 11 Russel Bodine C
5 24 AJ McCarron QB
6 36 Marquise Flowers OLB
7 37 Lavelle Westbrooks CB

2015
Rd Pick Name Position
1 21 Cedric Ogbuehi OT
2 21 Jake Fisher OT
3 21 Tyler Kroft TE
3 35 Paul Dawson ILB
4 21 Josh Shaw CB
4 36 Marcus Hardison DE
5 21 C.J. Uzomah TE
6 21 Derron Smith FS
7 21 Mario Alford WR

2016
Rd Pick Name Position
1 24 William Jackson CB
2 24 Tyler Boyd WR
3 24 Nick Vigil ILB
4 24 Andrew Billings NT
5 24 Christian Westerman OG
6 24 Cody Core WR
7 24 Clayton Fejedelem S

2017
Rd Pick Name Position
1 9 John Ross WR
2 16 Joe Mixon RB
3 9 Jordan Willis OLB
4 9 Carl Lawson OLB
4 22 Josh Malone WR
4 32 Ryan Glasgow DT
5 9 Jake Elliott K
5 33 J.J. Dielman C
6 9 Jordan Evans LB
6 23 Brandon WIlson RB
7 33 Mason Shreck TE

2018
Rd Pick Name Position
1 21 Billy Price C
2 22 Jessie Bates S
3 13 Sam Hubbard DE
3 14 Malik Jefferson OLB
4 12 Mark Walton RB
5 14 Devontae Harris CB
5 21 Andrew Brown DT
5 33 Darius Phillips CB
7 31 Logan Woodside QB
7 34 Rod Taylor G
7 35 Auden Tate WR

Outside 2015 (puke), I think these drafts are solid. I don't have many complaints about the drafting from Duke. If Price can turn it around, they've pretty much nailed the first three rounds last three drafts, and even found a gem in Fej (compared to where he was drafted).

2015 might be one of the worst drafts in Bengals history.

2016 has the potential to turn out really well...depending on if Jackson can develop into an elite CB.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-06-2018, 12:34 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Yep, but then they have a very hard decision on what to do with AD. He'll be on the back 9 while all the young guns are on the front 9. Their arrow is pointing mostly up because they finally got a decent QB. 

But if they hire Hue, that'll be the last straw for a lot of fans. ALOT.

Correct, you are not truly rebuilding with Andy Dalton at QB. If you keep Dalton, you have to go all-in over the next 1-2 years.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-06-2018, 12:37 PM)3wt Wrote: Yeah, I don't think he just stood on the table, I think he took his piano up there with him.

He was just totally drooling about Og after he was drafted and never backed off on the selection.

I don't think that fail was really on anyone but Alexander.   He had an impressive record over time, was the assistant head coach and he obsessed on Og like Ahab riding the white whale down to the grave.

According to Rappaport he is beckoning still...

Nice post, made me lol

Yes, he was drooling over the Og pick.

Like i said, not everything is on Duke and this was the worst pick we have made in a long time and PA had a say.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-06-2018, 11:58 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I know I'm likely in the minority here, but I really thought Hue was building a really good team up in Cleveland. They were lacking so many pieces when he first came in that anyone who expected a quick turnaround there was delusional. The Browns got some good draft picks while he was there (Garrett, Ward, Mayfield, Chubb, Schobert, Ogunjobi, Njoku) and brought in some good FAs too. Their arrow is pointing up for sure.

I bring this up because I think the Bengals might need to follow suit to a certain extent. This upcoming rebuild (whether it's 2019, 2020, or 2021) is going to take some time because of the failed/undeveloped draft picks, lack of quality FAs brought in, and aging core of the team. The Bengals fanbase might have to buckle up for a few rough years in order to make that rebuild a reality. Hue might be a good person to get that rebuild going, and I think Mike Brown might give him enough leeway to actually see a rebuild all the way through.

Good points, not everything Hue did in Cleveland was bad that is for sure, he just couldn't win.

Might of got kicked out right before he could.

Still, like HH said, a lot of fans will be PO'ed if he is the next HC including me.

Think we can do MUCH better.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-06-2018, 03:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Good points, not everything Hue did in Cleveland was bad that is for sure, he just couldn't win.

Might of got kicked out right before he could.

Still, like HH said, a lot of fans will be PO'ed if he is the next HC including me.

Think we can do MUCH better.

Hue's strengths may just be that he has a decent/good eye for talent and can call an offense. He may not be able to do the rest of the HC duties well.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-06-2018, 03:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Good points, not everything Hue did in Cleveland was bad that is for sure, he just couldn't win.

Might of got kicked out right before he could.

Still, like HH said, a lot of fans will be PO'ed if he is the next HC including me.

Think we can do MUCH better.

Cleveland gutted the roster too before last season. Not many coaches could win with that roster.

Still, bad on him for taking that job.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-06-2018, 03:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Hue's strengths may just be that he has a decent/good eye for talent and can call an offense. He may not be able to do the rest of the HC duties well.

I mean if we got a new Head Coach and he wanted Hue as the OC?

I can't blame him, Hue was a very good OC, he is just not a quality HC from what we have seen.

It would be dumb for our FO to make him our next HC based on results.

I would rather us go with someone that is unproven and has upside than someone that has a proven failed record.

(12-06-2018, 11:23 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Cleveland gutted the roster too before last season. Not many coaches could win with that roster.

Still, bad on him for taking that job.

Yeah, that was not smart lol

[*ochocincos*]

(12-07-2018, 02:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I mean if we got a new Head Coach and he wanted Hue as the OC?

I can't blame him, Hue was a very good OC, he is just not a quality HC from what we have seen.

It would be dumb for our FO to make him our next HC based on results.

I would rather us go with someone that is unproven and has upside than someone that has a proven failed record.


Yeah, that was not smart lol

Worst thing for Hue was to probably go to Cleveland instead of waiting in the wings in Cincinnati, in hindsight.
He was set up to take over for Marvin and likely would have had such a long leash with the Bengals while also having a better team than what Cleveland had.
Now that he has the same number of wins in 2.5 seasons as Gregg Williams has in just five games, Hue is viewed as the worst HC candidate ever and no one wants him in Cincinnati.
This may be my blind optimism, but I honestly don't think he's as bad as his Cleveland record indicates. Do I think he's consistent double-digit wins good? No, but I also don't think he's consistent double-digit wins bad either. I think his Oakland record is much more indicative of how he would be in Cincinnati. Similar to Marvin.