Transexual threatens to send a fellow show guest home in an ambulance

[StLucieBengal]

(07-19-2015, 12:46 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I'm pretty sure it was clarified for him over an hour ago that no one is debating whether or not we have a choice in every action that we take.

I am currently choosing to type this message. Earlier I chose to eat a snickerdoodle. When I'm done posting this, I am going to chose to read a Clash of Kings. Those are all actions.

I did not chose to be 5'11". I did not chose to be lactose intolerant. I did not chose to be sexually attracted to females. These are not actions. These are biological.

so if you grew up with no women around and your only expierence was with men. What do you think the likelihood is that you would find comfort with a man? Remember being raised in a men only world. So take it back to going through puberty and all.

[GodHatesBengals]

(07-18-2015, 10:06 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Maybe he was .... But shouldnt that dude be ready for stuff like that when going on a talk show?   Besides I'm sure they all sat in a green room and they all saw how each other were

Not really. It was ***** Dr. Drew, not some debate show. I doubt this person expected to be deliberately insulted and degraded by some third rate conservative hack.

[BmorePat87]

(07-19-2015, 04:17 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: so if you grew up with no women around and your only expierence was with men.   What do you think the likelihood is that you would find comfort with a man?   Remember being raised in a men only world.   So take it back to going through puberty and all.

I'm not sure. That's a very specific hypothetical scenario. I'm pretty sure most boys who go to all boy boarding schools don't turn out gay, but women still exist in their world. 

It's interesting that your only argument is a very unrealistic scenario. 

[BmorePat87]

(07-19-2015, 01:24 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Anything to support this position?

At no point in my life was there ever a moment when I chose to be straight or gay. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-19-2015, 03:01 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I saw several posts back where you said who you were attracted to wasn't a choice. I'm just not sure why you asked about nuns. To me, it's clear that is a choice and not something you're "born with".

EXACTLY. It was in response to the "you don't have a choice" stance. Everyone makes a choice it is just an easier choice for some and they just take for granted to process in the brain that made the choice.

I'll ask you the question I asked Pat (maybe you will answer it). Do you think there are men in society that are attracted to men that have chosen to lead a straight life?

The original question posed to me was "when did you choose to be straight". My answer was a choose to be straight about the time I became sexually attracted to women. Others have stated they came out of the womb with this attraction. 

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(07-19-2015, 08:34 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: At no point in my life was there ever a moment when I chose to be straight or gay. 

Conservatives had to choose though.  I imagine that the choice for them was a very confusing time.  Here, I thought that puberty was confusing and I was only interested in girls.  Some folks actually had to choose whether they wanted to be attracted to boys or girls.  I feel for them, I don't imagine that was easy.

[*bfine32*]

(07-19-2015, 04:17 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: so if you grew up with no women around and your only expierence was with men.   What do you think the likelihood is that you would find comfort with a man?   Remember being raised in a men only world.   So take it back to going through puberty and all.

You mean somewhere like a prison?

[BmorePat87]

(07-19-2015, 10:38 AM)bfine32 Wrote: EXACTLY. It was in response to the "you don't have a choice" stance. Everyone makes a choice it is just an easier choice for some and they just take for granted to process in the brain that made the choice.

I'll ask you the question I asked Pat (maybe you will answer it). Do you think there are men in society that are attracted to men that have chosen to lead a straight life?

The original question posed to me was "when did you choose to be straight". My answer was a choose to be straight about the time I became sexually attracted to women. Others have stated they came out of the womb with this attraction. 

This has been said to you multiple times over the course of many hours, but you still choose to pretend like it has never been clarified.

We're discussing attraction, not having sex or any other sexual activity. Those are two very different concepts. As rfaulk said, we do not choose who we are attracted to, we only choose when we act upon our attraction. That's why he said, as you quoted, that celibacy is a choice and, as he quoted himself saying in his post that you just quoted, that sexual attraction is not a choice.

You clearly understand the difference between attraction and action. You distinguished between the two in this thread. Where you're getting lost in this debate is that you seem to think gay and straight mean "having sex with someone of the same sex" and "having sex with someone of the opposite sex".

Let me help you out. I am going to quote definitions of the words from the Cambridge dictionary

Heterosexual: a person who is sexually attracted to people of the opposite sex
Homosexual: : a person who is sexually attracted to people of the same sex


We're only discussing attraction. Also, I did answer that question. The answer was "yes". People who are born gay sometimes chose to try to live life like they were straight. As others have said, that doesn't make them straight as they are still attracted to men and not women.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(07-19-2015, 11:19 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This has been said to you multiple times over the course of many hours, but you still choose to pretend like it has never been clarified.

We're discussing attraction, not having sex or any other sexual activity. Those are two very different concepts. As rfaulk said, we do not choose who we are attracted to, we only chose when we act upon our attraction. That's why he said, as you quoted, that celibacy is a choice and, as he quoted himself saying in his post that you just quoted, that sexual attraction is not a choice.

You clearly understand the difference between attraction and action. You distinguished between the two in this thread. Where you're getting lost in this debate is that you seem to think gay and straight mean "having sex with someone of the same sex" and "having sex with someone of the opposite sex".

Let me help you out. I am going to quote definitions of the words from the Cambridge dictionary

Heterosexual: a person who is sexually attracted to people of the opposite sex
Homosexual: : a person who is sexually attracted to people of the same sex


We're only discussing attraction. Also, I did answer that question. The answer was "yes". People who are born gay sometimes chose to try to live life like they were straight. As others have said, that doesn't make them straight as they are still attracted to men and not women.

Who's this "we" business?

[BmorePat87]

(07-19-2015, 11:27 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Who's this "we" business?

(07-19-2015, 12:06 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Who is this "we" that is discussing sexual attraction?

 

(07-19-2015, 12:34 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Lucy and I were discussing whether sexual orientation was a choice or biological. That's when you joined in. Try to keep up.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-19-2015, 04:17 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: so if you grew up with no women around and your only expierence was with men.   What do you think the likelihood is that you would find comfort with a man?   Remember being raised in a men only world.   So take it back to going through puberty and all.

If you were in the deserts of Africa or the rain forests of South America and there were no women around (umm, where do the kids come from if there are no women?) then the experience of men only, from your earliest memories, is more likely to guide you toward men only relationships (conditioning). I don't think anyone would really disagree with that. Since pretty much all of us live in a society where men and women cohabitate, that's a poor example. 

Pat gave and example about him and his brother and i gave an example about my twins. It's not as easy as saying that an 'emotional connection' with the same sex at a young age could be the cause. If that were a cause, it's more than likely that there is a pre-disposition to SSA. I had plenty of close relationships with male friends growing up and none of them lead me to an attraction to males.

If it were a real factor, i'm sure the percentage of hetero/homosexuals would be a lot closer than it is now.

[*bfine32*]

(07-19-2015, 11:19 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This has been said to you multiple times over the course of many hours, but you still choose to pretend like it has never been clarified.

We're discussing attraction, not having sex or any other sexual activity. Those are two very different concepts. As rfaulk said, we do not choose who we are attracted to, we only chose when we act upon our attraction. That's why he said, as you quoted, that celibacy is a choice and, as he quoted himself saying in his post that you just quoted, that sexual attraction is not a choice.

You clearly understand the difference between attraction and action. You distinguished between the two in this thread. Where you're getting lost in this debate is that you seem to think gay and straight mean "having sex with someone of the same sex" and "having sex with someone of the opposite sex".

Let me help you out. I am going to quote definitions of the words from the Cambridge dictionary

Heterosexual: a person who is sexually attracted to people of the opposite sex
Homosexual: : a person who is sexually attracted to people of the same sex


We're only discussing attraction. Also, I did answer that question. The answer was "yes". People who are born gay sometimes chose to try to live life like they were straight. As others have said, that doesn't make them straight as they are still attracted to men and not women.

You don't get to decide what "we" are only discussing. You asked me when I decided to be straight (def:a person who follows traditional or conventional mores.) I stated I chose this lifestyle once I realized I was attracted to the opposite sex.  If the question would have been when did you choose to be attracted to the opposite sex then the answer would have been a little more difficult.

You can try to wrap it around semantics all you like; however, the root question is: When did you choose your sexual orientation?  Many here suggest it isn't a choice; I suggest it is.



I further stated everybody has to make this choice

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-19-2015, 10:38 AM)bfine32 Wrote: EXACTLY. It was in response to the "you don't have a choice" stance. Everyone makes a choice it is just an easier choice for some and they just take for granted to process in the brain that made the choice.

I'll ask you the question I asked Pat (maybe you will answer it). Do you think there are men in society that are attracted to men that have chosen to lead a straight life?

The original question posed to me was "when did you choose to be straight". My answer was a choose to be straight about the time I became sexually attracted to women. Others have stated they came out of the womb with this attraction. 

Yes. I would say, from things i've read or seen on tv or heard firsthand, that there are gay men who choose to lead a "straight" lifestyle. We've all heard the stories of men who have been married, fathered children and at a later age, came out as gay. My wife has been good friends with a former female co-worker who was married to a man, had a child and is now divorced and in a relationship with another woman (side note: they are two of the most caring, giving people you would ever meet). People choose to live a certain lifestyle, in at least the cases i'm aware of, because of societal pressure/expectations.

I think the examples in your second paragraph are the same thing. Even though you feel the "decision" was make around puberty, it was always going to be that way. Others just choose to say it's been that way from the womb because in their mind, there was never any decision to be made. 

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(07-19-2015, 11:30 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote:  

I was being facetious.

something weird happened with the quote function.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-19-2015, 11:48 AM)bfine32 Wrote: You don't get to decide what "we" are only discussing. You asked me when I decided to be straight (def:a person who follows traditional or conventional mores.) I stated I chose this lifestyle once I realized I was attracted to the opposite sex.  If the question would have been when did you choose to be attracted to the opposite sex then the answer would have been a little more difficult.

You can try to wrap it around semantics all you like; however, the root question is: When did you choose your sexual orientation?  Many here suggest it isn't a choice; I suggest it is.



I further stated everybody has to make this choice

But it's not really a choice if, as you stated, chemicals in your brain lead the decision. It wasn't a conscious decision by you to decide--all things being equal.

[*bfine32*]

(07-19-2015, 11:49 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I think the examples in your second paragraph are the same thing. Even though you feel the "decision" was make around puberty, it was always going to be that way. Others just choose to say it's been that way from the womb because in their mind, there was never any decision to be made. 

You have absolutely no proof that what you state here is fact. If folks don't give my view any merit; perhaps they will give merit to the views of the American Psychological Association:
http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/orientation.aspx

Quote:What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?

There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.

Notice at the end of the answer they state many experience little or no sense of choice. Nowhere do they say it is not a choice.

Point is the brain is a very complex organ and just because you didn't feel the sensation (sense) of the choice doesn't mean you didn't make it; others have felt the sensation of this choice.  Yet folks want to dispute the assertion that sexual orientation occurs in the brain (I suppose because then folks could tie it to a mental disorder); they insist it must be genetic. Just like the celibate gene.

[*bfine32*]

(07-19-2015, 11:54 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: I was being facetious.

something weird happened with the quote function.

A good craftsman never blames his tools

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-19-2015, 12:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You have absolutely no proof that what you state here is fact. If folks don't give my view any merit; perhaps they will give merit to the views of the American Psychological Association:
http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/orientation.aspx

Notice at the end of the answer they state many experience little or no sense of choice. Nowhere do they say it is not a choice.

Point is the brain is a very complex organ and just because you didn't feel the sensation (sense) of the choice doesn't mean you didn't make it; others have felt the sensation of this choice.  Yet folks want to dispute the assertion that sexual orientation occurs in the brain (I suppose because then folks could tie it to a mental disorder); they insist it must be genetic. Just like the celibate gene.

I think you may be confusing me with someone that wouldn't give you view any merit. I wasn't trying to disagree with how you felt. Just trying to explain how, yes, in my opinion, what you felt was your 'decision' wasn't really a decision because you were always going to prefer females. 

I can't say with a certainty that decisions people make are this or that. I can only speak from my personal experience and things i've seen and heard from relatives/friends. You can feel that you consciously made a decision around the time of puberty and that's fine. I'm just saying that it's also possible that, even though you feel that way, it may have always been that way.

Do you feel there is a realistic, reasonable chance that you could have been attracted to males at any point in your life?

P.S. I didn't see anything in your link that i disagree with.

[BmorePat87]

(07-19-2015, 11:48 AM)bfine32 Wrote: You don't get to decide what "we" are only discussing.

The two people who started the debate actually do decide that. You came in and started discussing something other than attraction. No one was debating anything other than attraction.

Quote: If the question would have been when did you choose to be attracted to the opposite sex then the answer would have been a little more difficult.

I did ask you when you chose to be attracted to the opposite sex. Did you not just see what the definition of heterosexual/straight is?

Quote:You can try to wrap it around semantics all you like; however, the root question is: When did you choose your sexual orientation?  Many here suggest it isn't a choice; I suggest it is.

Again, sexual orientation = attraction.

LOL?

[*bfine32*]

(07-19-2015, 01:10 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The two people who started the debate actually do decide that. You came in and started discussing something other than attraction. No one was debating anything other than attraction.



I did ask you when you chose to be attracted to the opposite sex. Did you not just see what the definition of heterosexual/straight is?




Again, sexual orientation = attraction.

LOL?

Actually the fact that you and someone else started discussing something that had absolutely nothing to do with the OP doesn't give you a monopoly on the subject of discussion.

I also gave you a definition for straight. Do you need me to explain to you that a word often has more than one meaning.

Yes and APA considers it a choice.