Transgender vets now have a VA clinic

[StLucieBengal]

(11-11-2015, 10:09 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That's part of the counseling. Mike was suggesting that they needed therapy to make them more comfortable with their sex if they identified with another gender. That's quite different and suggests it's just behavioral. It's like saying that gay therapy is legitimate. 




Congrats, you've created a coded word for a slur that was banned on here after you used it excessively. You never cease to amaze me. 

Gay therapy is not even close to the same. They are accepting who they are.... Transexuals are saying they are a complete different sex. That's a radical physical change.

Coded word? I am just a car guy

[BmorePat87]

(11-11-2015, 10:19 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Ah ok fair play

Well we don't know if there isn't any mental issues.   Isn't it worth finding out to see if they need help?  

The way we treat mental issues now really bothers me.   And this isn't just about transexuals .... This is across the board, and we really need a broad plan to help the mentally ill, some are a lot worse off than others .   Even the ones with slight issues need our help.    I don't like a lot of gov involvement but this is something they could help.  

I know this conversation is on the transexual topic but when I bring this up I think it's warranted across the board.   Not just on this group.

No, mental health is definitely an issue in the US that, as you said, need more help/attention. It just seems odd to be so focused on it in this thread unless you're suggesting that being trans makes you mentally ill.

[BmorePat87]

(11-11-2015, 10:23 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Gay therapy is not even close to the same.   They are accepting who they are....   Transexuals are saying they are a complete different sex.   That's a radical physical change.    

Coded word?  I am just a car guy  

Actually, transgender people are identifying with a gender that is different from their sex. They are accepting who they are by accepting that they gender they identify with is different from the one associated with their birth sex. 

They do not say they are a different sex as that's biological, unless, of course, they are one of the few who have a sexual reassignment surgery. 

[StLucieBengal]

(11-11-2015, 10:24 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: No, mental health is definitely an issue in the US that, as you said, need more help/attention. It just seems odd to be so focused on it in this thread unless you're suggesting that being trans makes you mentally ill.

It's one of those topics I think deserves to be spoken about a lot more than it ever comes up. Here these transexual topics come up a lot because of the news. So the topic gets tossed in here but it's not limited only to transexuals.

I think it deserves to be checked out to see if having such an opposite view of your actual self is stemming from any mental issues. Like I said this isn't like being gay. Gays don't see themselves as drastically different than their physical self.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-11-2015, 10:28 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Actually, transgender people are identifying with a gender that is different from their sex. They are accepting who they are by accepting that they gender they identify with is different from the one associated with their birth sex. 

They do not say they are a different sex as that's biological, unless, of course, they are one of the few who have a sexual reassignment surgery. 

Anytime I say trans anything I mean the same people. To me Sex and gender in this discussion is irrelevant. It's more what's going on In their head that makes them want to be so different than they are made.

[StLucieBengal]

http://www.13newsnow.com/story/news/military/2015/11/11/va-transgender-clinic-military/75573886/

Well given how the VA operates now I can only assume it will be a short time before they start ignoring these people as well.

[BmorePat87]

(11-11-2015, 10:38 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote:   Like I said this isn't like being gay.  Gays don't see themselves as drastically different than their physical self.

According to those who believe in gay therapy, they are going against their biological programming. I'm not trying to lump being gay and trans together, but the suggestion was very similar to the concept of gay therapy (there is something wrong and we can use behavioral counseling to "fix" it). 

[BmorePat87]

(11-11-2015, 10:42 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Anytime I say trans anything I mean the same people.  To me Sex and gender in this discussion is irrelevant.   It's more what's going on In their head that makes them want to be so different than they are made.

Unfortunately for your arguments, it is not irrelevant. No one is made a gender. Gender is learned. Their personalities and temperaments, however, are something they are born with. They grow up realizing that they do not identify with the gender they were taught. They do not fit with what their culture has deemed to be the gender they must adopt based on their sex. 

[jmccracky]

Transgender=mental illness? I tried to catch up, but had to stop. Words cannot describe how insulting that is. Like I said before, if you truly do have questions, go seek out people who are transgendered. Nothing wrong with being confused and having questions. Ask a transgender why it is important to them to use the right facility.

Trust me, it doesn't mean you're a "*****".

[jmccracky]

(11-12-2015, 07:50 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Unfortunately for your arguments, it is not irrelevant. No one is made a gender. Gender is learned. Their personalities and temperaments, however, are something they are born with. They grow up realizing that they do not identify with the gender they were taught. They do not fit with what their culture has deemed to be the gender they must adopt based on their sex. 

This. All damn day. 

[StLucieBengal]

(11-12-2015, 07:43 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: According to those who believe in gay therapy, they are going against their biological programming. I'm not trying to lump being gay and trans together, but the suggestion was very similar to the concept of gay therapy (there is something wrong and we can use behavioral counseling to "fix" it). 

I can't see how that's the same. Gays are at peace with their physical self. It's their mindset and desires they are different. Whether you think that needs treatment or not is up to you. I personally do not because as I have said in the past. That has already been imprinted on them at puberty.

As for trans people .... They are not at peace with their physical self. Which is much more than than gays. They can actually see who they are and yet they deny. Gays question themselves but realize they are who they physically are

[StLucieBengal]

(11-12-2015, 12:18 PM)CharvelPlaya Wrote: Transgender=mental illness? I tried to catch up, but had to stop. Words cannot describe how insulting that is. Like I said before, if you truly do have questions, go seek out people who are transgendered. Nothing wrong with being confused and having questions. Ask a transgender why it is important to them to use the right facility.

Trust me, it doesn't mean you're a "*****".  

sorry it's not insulting to discuss a possible mental illness when a person denies what they can see in the mirror. If this was normal behavior then there would be more than. .01% of the population. It would be around 25-35%

[StLucieBengal]

(11-12-2015, 07:50 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Unfortunately for your arguments, it is not irrelevant. No one is made a gender. Gender is learned. Their personalities and temperaments, however, are something they are born with. They grow up realizing that they do not identify with the gender they were taught. They do not fit with what their culture has deemed to be the gender they must adopt based on their sex. 

Gender is learned? I never learned my gender and I doubt anyone else here has had to learn their gender.

Of course please feel to let us know how it felt for you when you were going between man and woman as you learned your gender and figured out you were Patrick or Patricia. Did you try both out? Make a pro/con list?

[Rotobeast]

(11-12-2015, 12:43 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Gender is learned?  I never learned my gender and I doubt anyone else here has had to learn their gender.    

Of course please feel to let us know how it felt for you when you were going between man and woman as you learned your gender and figured out you were Patrick or Patricia.   Did you try both out?  Make a pro/con list?

Gee....that sounds familiar. 

[GMDino]

(11-12-2015, 12:43 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Gender is learned?  I never learned my gender and I doubt anyone else here has had to learn their gender.    

Of course please feel to let us know how it felt for you when you were going between man and woman as you learned your gender and figured out you were Patrick or Patricia.   Did you try both out?  Make a pro/con list?

I admit it can get confusing as we tend to use short hand when talking about these things and its easy to confuse the real definitions vs what we "mean" or what we "think" a word means.  I am certainly guilty of this as well.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363.php

Quote:The words sex and gender are commonly used interchangeably, but many linguists would argue that their usage is quite distinct. Sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics, while gender refers to behaviors, roles, expectations, and activities in society.

Sex refers to male or female, while gender refers to masculine or feminine.
The differences in the sexes do not vary throughout the world, but differences in gender do.
Here are some examples of characteristics related to sex:

• Females have a vagina, males do not
• Males have a penis, females do not
• Male newborns tend to weigh more than female newborns
• Females can breastfeed their babies, males cannot
• Males have deeper voices than females
• Females can get pregnant, males cannot
• Males have testicles and females have ovaries
  

Here are some examples of characteristics related to gender:

• Women tend to do more of the housework than their spouses do
• A higher percentage of US doctors are women, compared to Egypt
• Nursing is often seen as a woman's job, although many men enter the profession
• In some countries women have to cover their heads when they go outside the house
• 120 years ago women were not allowed to vote in elections.
  

Another way of putting it is:

Sex refers to a natural or biological feature.
Gender refers to cultural or learned significance of sex.

Or in easy picture form:



Or in eve easier picture form:

[StLucieBengal]

(11-12-2015, 12:52 PM)GMDino Wrote: I admit it can get confusing as we tend to use short hand when talking about these things and its easy to confuse the real definitions vs what we "mean" or what we "think" a word means.  I am certainly guilty of this as well.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363.php



Or in easy picture form:



Or in eve easier picture form:

Dino.....   I really like you but come on man   I hope your having a laugh with this one.

Were you making genderbread persons as you allow your kids to choose their genders?

A woman who doesn't do housework is still a woman.   Housework is a job that the whole family is responsible.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-12-2015, 12:46 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Gee....that sounds familiar. 

Yes evidently I missed the time in my life where I choosing my gender. So much so that I can't recall choosing male.

[djs7685]

(11-12-2015, 01:06 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Dino.....   I really like you but come on man   I hope your having a laugh with this one.  

Were you making genderbread persons as you allow your kids to choose their genders?

A woman who doesn't do housework is still a woman.   Housework is a job that the whole family is responsible.

You just need to learn the differences if you want to have actual conversations on the subjects.

It would be like if I had very strong opinions about animals at the zoo, but I kept referring to the elephants as "turtles" and the penguins "goats".

It would be very difficult to follow along in a debate if I refused to use the actual, given definitions and made up my own bullshit by saying "yeah, well I consider them all the same thing, so you just have to deal with that".

Understand that words have definitions already, none of us get to make them up as we go. I can totally feel for you if it's a subject that you don't really care about, but you look really silly when you have such a STRONG feeling on a topic, yet you're just unwilling to learn what the words mean to have a more constructive debate.

[GMDino]

(11-12-2015, 01:06 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Dino.....   I really like you but come on man   I hope your having a laugh with this one.  

Were you making genderbread persons as you allow your kids to choose their genders?

A woman who doesn't do housework is still a woman.   Housework is a job that the whole family is responsible.

If you want to ignore the definitions that is your choice.  As I said I have made similar mistakes in an effort to shorten what I am saying / typing.  Just don't be surprised when you are corrected.

[GMDino]

(11-12-2015, 01:10 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yes evidently I missed the time in my life where I choosing my gender.    So much so that I can't recall choosing male.

You that whole thing about "real men" and "real women"?  That's choosing your gender.