Trump Announces Presidential Bid for 2024

[*Nately120*]

(11-18-2022, 06:13 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah I get that he'd go for Trump over Biden, it's understandably tough for someone with a conservative mindset to vote any other way. I wondered whether he could imagine a better republican candidate.

A person would have to be completely brainwashed to not be able to think up a more favorable matchup than Biden vs Trump in 2024...maybe if Biden retires and Hillary runs again.

[HarleyDog]

(11-18-2022, 06:09 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, recent surveys apparently still see Trump way ahead of deSantis or anyone else. Eg. this one.

If you want to answer that, what about yourself? Would you prefer Trump or deSantis, or rather someone else?

Myself I would prefer any republican or independent other than Trump right now. I guess I'm not one who fits into the example you provided, but I have a low tolerance for egomaniacs.  Granted, when he was president I was able to look past some of the flaws and issues because I backed a lot of his goals. Now that he's not in office, and since his jab at DeSantis, to me he's intolerable.

[Arturo Bandini]

(11-18-2022, 05:50 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I would much prefer Trump 2024 over what we have now. Yet, not going to happen and his running may set the GOP back several years. 

You said he was a democrat in disguise, I don't get it.

[hollodero]

(11-18-2022, 06:27 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Myself I would prefer any republican or independent other than Trump right now. I guess I'm not one who fits into the example you provided, but I have a low tolerance for egomaniacs.  Granted, when he was president I was able to look past some of the flaws and issues because I backed a lot of his goals. Now that he's not in office, and since his jab at DeSantis, to me he's intolerable.

Thanks for the answer, seems perfectly understandable for the most part. Only thing I wonder is why his jab at deSantis is so particularly bad. He made jabs like that against fellow conservatives all the time, and often even sharper in tone. Why bother now?

[*Nately120*]

(11-18-2022, 06:57 PM)hollodero Wrote: Thanks for the answer, seems perfectly understandable for the most part. Only thing I wonder is why his jab at deSantis is so particularly bad. He made jabs like that against fellow conservatives all the time, and often even sharper in tone. Why bother now?

I don't blame conservatives for wanting to move on from Trump and latch onto a guy who hasn't lost to Biden, but the faux pearl clutching about Trump's personality is a bit of a laugh.

Trump is going to keep hammering his same playbook.

[hollodero]

(11-18-2022, 07:21 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I don't blame conservatives for wanting to move on from Trump and latch onto a guy who hasn't lost to Biden, but the faux pearl clutching about Trump's personality is a bit of a laugh.

Well, one can see it that way, but I also have a certain kind of understanding really. What is an ideological conservative supposed to do once it's clear his ideals are represented by the party of Trump now. Gotta vote for him still, changing teams is not really an option. And one defends those one votes for, that is also understandable, at least to a point. Regrettable to me as well, sure, but it's just the way it is.

(11-18-2022, 07:21 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Trump is going to keep hammering his same playbook.

Of course. What other playbook is there for him really. He isn't tailored to be the nuanced, thoughtful or intellectual type.

[HarleyDog]

(11-18-2022, 06:44 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: You said he was a democrat in disguise, I don't get it.

I was joking, kinda.

[HarleyDog]

(11-18-2022, 06:57 PM)hollodero Wrote: Thanks for the answer, seems perfectly understandable for the most part. Only thing I wonder is why his jab at deSantis is so particularly bad. He made jabs like that against fellow conservatives all the time, and often even sharper in tone. Why bother now?

It hit different. He’s no longer POTUS for one and two, I feel he’s lost focus.

[hollodero]

(11-18-2022, 07:53 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: It hit different. He’s no longer POTUS for one and two, I feel he’s lost focus.

Interesting. I find him to be just the guy he always was, but sure no need to argue about that. It's just, when he called McCain a loser and said he prefers people that weren't captured, he also wasn't POTUS. Or when he went after Ted Cruz' wife and did this JFK thing. Or when he called Carly Fiorina ugly. Or Bill Kristol a dummy.
Not to mention that imho it's rather even less appropriate than more appropriate to say such things as actual POTUS, which of course he also did plenty. As stated, always the same guy. I figured it just finally exhausted more and more people to defend all this, time and again.

But whatever. The main thing, and I for one am glad about that, is that you'd prefer another GOP candidate. I hope many others feel the same way.

[*Nately120*]

(11-18-2022, 08:56 PM)hollodero Wrote: Interesting. I find him to be just the guy he always was, but sure no need to argue about that. It's just, when he called McCain a loser and said he prefers people that weren't captured, he also wasn't POTUS. Or when he went after Ted Cruz' wife and did this JFK thing. Or when he called Carly Fiorina ugly. Or Bill Kristol a dummy.
Not to mention that imho it's rather even less appropriate than more appropriate to say such things as actual POTUS, which of course he also did plenty. As stated, always the same guy. I figured it just finally exhausted more and more people to defend all this, time and again.

But whatever. The main thing, and I for one am glad about that, is that you'd prefer another GOP candidate. I hope many others feel the same way.

It's completely understandable and reasonable that sane members of the GOP want to move on from Trump, but they should just admit that they're doing so because they feel DeSantis has more of a chance to win than Trump.  And let's also face facts, if and when DeSantis starts throwing insults around the GOP isn't going to say "Geez, he's a jerk too...guess we have to find someone else to represent our party" they'll go right into "That's our Ron!  Not afraid to fight and make the snowflakes cry!"

The GOP isn't sick of Trump being a loudmouthed jerk, they're sick of him losing.


The sports analogy is Aaron Rodgers.  The guy has been acting like a me-first jerk who doesn't show up in the off-season and teases retirement and infuriates fans who immediately forget all that once he has an MVP season...well, he isn't an MVP this season and suddenly his attitude is finally starting to wear on the cheesehead fans.  Go figure.

Or it's like my wife and I.  If Hugh Jackman shows up and asks her to marry him she's got the decency to tell me she's leaving me for Hugh Jackman, not that she's leaving me because last Tuesday I left too many dirty dishes in the sink and that is what sent her over the edge oh and by the way Hugh Jackman wants to marry me but I'm totally divorcing you because of the dishes thing so you don't think I'm shallow.


tl;dr - If sane members of the GOP are done with Trump and his BS, lying to themselves about why they are done with him isn't the biggest step in the right direction.

[Dill]

(11-18-2022, 05:50 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I would much prefer Trump 2024 over what we have now. Yet, not going to happen and his running may set the GOP back several years. 

You prefer the guy who attempted an internal coup to keep power, drawing much of the party leadership with him,

and who since has been a legal shitshow soaking up the bulk of the DOJ's energies, 

and who would set about a vengeance campaign against the political enemies he created if ever he got back in power,

to the much more stable, decent and experienced Biden?  

I am curious as to why Trump trumps competence for so many of this supporters. Still. 

I know you are distancing yourself somewhat from Trump now, and for good reasons, but what leads you to

still prefer him over Biden? 

[Dill]

(11-18-2022, 01:11 PM)hollodero Wrote: On the other hand, this could be exactly the reason why folks fall in line again. His perceived adversaries (I know not really, but that's the perception) in all of these matters are the liberals. And I might believe some folks glorify him less than they did before, I do not believe that these folks' disdain for liberals has in any way diminished. And when it's Trump vs. liberals, no question who FOX et al. will side with. And if this fight gets heated again, as it undoubtedly will, they will quickly go to the former extremes.

As for the primaries, imho it depends on how many people run against him. If it's only deSantis, I can see it getting close. If it's a bunch of folks whose most significant asset is that they are not Trump, then Trump will win the primaries again. It splits his opponents while his followers won't switch allegiance.

Yes, I tend to agree with the bolded here.  

But for the moment, Fox is testing the waters by airing some anti-Trump commentary, and somewhat coded affirmations of Trump "policies" which are supposed to have been great and which can be carried forward by others. 

Hannity has been hedging his bets, refusing to dump on Trump yet, calling himself "open" to what happens in the next year, but carefully reminding callers how "great" Trump's policies were and how people will soon miss 2 dollar a gallon gas enough to realize their mistaken voting, just because the guy threw out some mean tweets. (This to a caller who was saddened that the MSM had successfully "tagged Trump as toxic" and that's why his support seemed to be waning, not because of Trump's unstable, illegal, and very public behavior. The failed coup is equated to a mean tweet--bothers some, but real men shrug it off.) 

As Laura advocates Trumpism without Trump, it may be that "trump vs liberals" is gradually displaced by "DeSantis and others vs liberals."

But they keep repeating the conspiracies of the past 4 years as "fact." Dan Bongino even begged his listeners to send him more conspiracy theories because so many have turned out to be "true"--the Russia investigation Was a Hoax, like the two impeachments, Obama DID spy on Trump, the FBI was embedded in the Proud Boys and so had a role in instigating 1/6, Hunter Biden's laptop has been "verified," etc. They have to remain invested in the "witchhunt" politics to keep their audience and the political power which can extracted from their support.

This need may keep Trump in the mix, even if only inadvertently. The big objection to him is not that he "breaks china," but only that his endorsements no longer have the power to discipline the whole party in his direction.  For the moment. It's "the base" that will finally settle this, a base steeped in the aforementioned "facts" and still hostile to the more responsible reporting of the "fake news." 

[Dill]

(11-18-2022, 10:32 PM)Nately120 Wrote: tl;dr - If sane members of the GOP are done with Trump and his BS, lying to themselves about why they are done with him isn't the biggest step in the right direction.

I don't hear many lying to themselves. 

Up front the complaints are that he is no longer winning, and may inhibit others who might win.

They are still up to their necks in the Big Lie and "witchhunt" impeachments and the Biden crime family.

1/6 was, for a moment, a moment of recognition, but has long passed. 

Now it's merely a story of Dem weaponization of government, and how

we'll NEVER get to the bottom of what happened when GOP officials from 7 states sent false lists of electors to Pence as

Trump sicced ("peacefully") an angry mob on the capital chanting Pence's name, then watched from his

office as other officials scrambled to fill the absence of authority--because the 1/6 committee is so partisan.

[samhain]

(11-19-2022, 02:38 AM)Dill Wrote: Yes, I tend to agree with the bolded here.  

But for the moment, Fox is testing the waters by airing some anti-Trump commentary, and somewhat coded affirmations of Trump "policies" which are supposed to have been great and which can be carried forward by others. 

Hannity has been hedging his bets, refusing to dump on Trump yet, calling himself "open" to what happens in the next year, but carefully reminding callers how "great" Trump's policies were and how people will soon miss 2 dollar a gallon gas enough to realize their mistaken voting, just because the guy threw out some mean tweets. (This to a caller who was saddened that the MSM had successfully "tagged Trump as toxic" and that's why his support seemed to be waning, not because of Trump's unstable, illegal, and very public behavior. The failed coup is equated to a mean tweet--bothers some, but real men shrug it off.) 

As Laura advocates Trumpism without Trump, it may be that "trump vs liberals" is gradually displaced by "DeSantis and others vs liberals."

But they keep repeating the conspiracies of the past 4 years as "fact." Dan Bongino even begged his listeners to send him more conspiracy theories because so many have turned out to be "true"--the Russia investigation Was a Hoax, like the two impeachments, Obama DID spy on Trump, the FBI was embedded in the Proud Boys and so had a role in instigating 1/6, Hunter Biden's laptop has been "verified," etc. They have to remain invested in the "witchhunt" politics to keep their audience and the political power which can extracted from their support.

This need may keep Trump in the mix, even if only inadvertently. The big objection to him is not that he "breaks china," but only that his endorsements no longer have the power to discipline the whole party in his direction.  For the moment. It's "the base" that will finally settle this, a base steeped in the aforementioned "facts" and still hostile to the more responsible reporting of the "fake news." 

I'm not sure I completely agree with the bolded.  I definitely agree with the statement when it comes to the GOP base.  Actual legislators and donors may be a different story.  The narratives on conservative talk outlets certainly play a role, but the voices on those platforms are just the most available ones for consumption.  They aren't necessarily the ones that matter.

Trump was the battering ram for many of the recent policy wins for the right, but they were largely executed by more sober and calculating players-of-the-game like McConnell and judge Thomas.  Mitch is IMO the main architect of the modern conservative movement, and he's arguably the most effective legislator in modern US history.  Trump was the face and voice of the party, but does anyone think this shift would have occurred without Mitch's persistence and gamesmanship?  

My point is, McConnell and the adults in the party like a good lib-owning as much as anyone, but they like power better.  They don't care for rhetorical power quite as much as actual legislative power.  If Trump gets in the way of the acquisition of that power, he will be dealt with IMO.  If he is viewed as potentially diminishing that power, he will be dealt with.  

Anyone vs the liberals works in primaries, but national it's not quite as effective.  The party will have to win votes that aren't motivated by conspiracies or partisan grandstanding.  That's how Biden beats Trump.  That's how a red wave never materializes.  Even in a bad economy with a largely negative outlook among voters, they still didn't give power back to the authoritarian firebrands.  A lot of people are tired of hearing that shit, much as they are tired of the "woke" politics on the left.  

Dems have trouble reigning in the more extreme views in their party in national elections, and it's quite a balancing act.  It benefitted the right for a long time.  Now the right will have an internal conflict that mirrors the one on the left.  That, again is how Biden becomes the nominee and president.  He's old, vanilla, and not nearly as easy to peg as an extremist.  The right will need to find a way to keep it's extremists from gaining momentum and co-opting the party as Trump did.  If they don't, they will continue to underperform in national elections.

[NATI BENGALS]

(11-18-2022, 05:57 PM)Nately120 Wrote: This is why Trump is going to keep running.  Enough people seem to think Biden is worse than a guy who may very well have sold nuclear secrets to the Saudis.  Man, I'm not over the moon about Biden, but just imagine what Trump would have spent the past 2 years doing if he were still in the White House.  Lordy.

I could really go for some $2 gas and the USA aligning itself against NATO and with Putin right about now!

You think that $1.6 billion Oman golf course deal a Saudi just signed with trump the other day has anything to do with a payoff? To go along with the Liv golf payout

[hollodero]

(11-18-2022, 10:32 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It's completely understandable and reasonable that sane members of the GOP want to move on from Trump, but they should just admit that they're doing so because they feel DeSantis has more of a chance to win than Trump.  And let's also face facts, if and when DeSantis starts throwing insults around the GOP isn't going to say "Geez, he's a jerk too...guess we have to find someone else to represent our party" they'll go right into "That's our Ron!  Not afraid to fight and make the snowflakes cry!"

The GOP isn't sick of Trump being a loudmouthed jerk, they're sick of him losing.

Sure, it's a good reason. I'd just guess many attribute Trump not winning, if one can really say so, to him being the hateful loudmouth that he is. Sure at times one would wish it's also attributed to his election meddling and spouting conspiracies and him being an class a idiot, but what can you do.

(11-18-2022, 10:32 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Or it's like my wife and I.

--- insert disturbingly inappropriate, yet witty remark here ---

[hollodero]

(11-19-2022, 11:17 AM)samhain Wrote: Trump was the battering ram for many of the recent policy wins for the right, but they were largely executed by more sober and calculating players-of-the-game like McConnell and judge Thomas.  Mitch is IMO the main architect of the modern conservative movement, and he's arguably the most effective legislator in modern US history.  Trump was the face and voice of the party, but does anyone think this shift would have occurred without Mitch's persistence and gamesmanship?

I have to raise my hand here. I think your whole system determines a shift to happen, sooner or later. There were eight years of a liberal presidency, it was time for a swing. If it had not happened in 2016, it would have been pretty much bound to happen in 2020, or 2024 at the very latest, no matter who the republican candidate is at this point. And, imho, no matter whether the GOP as a whole is in a good or a lousy shape.

(11-19-2022, 11:17 AM)samhain Wrote: My point is, McConnell and the adults in the party like a good lib-owning as much as anyone, but they like power better.

Sure they do, that's the point. They don't care about the means, if it means backing an insufferable human being that owns the libs, then they go with that. Even though I am pretty much convinced that McConnell and quite some others personally detest the guy.

[kalibengal]

(11-19-2022, 12:05 PM)hollodero Wrote: Sure, it's a good reason. I'd just guess many attribute Trump not winning, if one can really say so, to him being the hateful loudmouth that he is. Sure at times one would wish it's also attributed to his election meddling and spouting conspiracies and him being an class a idiot, but what can you do.



--- insert disturbingly inappropriate, yet witty remark here ---

If anyone watched his response last night to the special council...holy crap this guy is just a stale broken record and I really feel  the country is ready to flush his worthless orange ass. Im an Indy and I would be open to a Desantis run but if they trot out this childish, insane, selfish, criminal, trainwreck its "turn out the lights" time for GOP. I really hope to see Desantis start firing back at Donny boy in the coming months and start talking about what HE CAN DO for the Country not the ther way around.   

[hollodero]

(11-19-2022, 02:38 AM)Dill Wrote: Yes, I tend to agree with the bolded here.  

But for the moment, Fox is testing the waters by airing some anti-Trump commentary, and somewhat coded affirmations of Trump "policies" which are supposed to have been great and which can be carried forward by others. 

I stopped informing myself about FOX programming, but it makes sense they take a somewhat hesitant wait and see approach here. I wouldn't know what to predict. I deem it possible that something similar to the destruction of my own country's right-wing populists is happening. That more and more people finally get tired of all of it. And especially get tired of defending Trump on things almost everyone at least deep down knows are pretty much indefensible. Things after things that would be declared the scandal of the century if any democrat president had said them, if Biden had claimed he grabbed women and because he's famous they let him do it, if Hillary fell in love with a monster and 10.000 things like that. It gets exhausting to doublethink around that on a weekly basis.

[hollodero]

(11-19-2022, 12:18 PM)kalibengal Wrote: If anyone watched his response last night to the special council...holy crap this guy is just a stale broken record and I really feel  the country is ready to flush his worthless orange ass. Im an Indy and I would be open to a Desantis run but if they trot out this childish, insane, selfish, criminal, trainwreck its "turn out the lights" time for GOP. I really hope to see Desantis start firing back at Donny boy in the coming months and start talking about what HE CAN DO for the Country not the ther way around.   

Yeah, I wonder about that. What does deSantis actually have to offer at this point, beyond the fact that he is not Trump? He is anti-woke, sure, but aside from that, is there any substance? Or is he just a projection surface for all the things conservatives and maybe independents hope to get out of his potential candidacy. To me it seems like it's rather the latter at this point, but I don't really know much about the guy. Aside from him not being Trump, which is a positive for sure.