Trump Loyalists

[Dill]

(05-19-2017, 09:09 AM)GMDino Wrote: More to the point:  Trump has been proven to just make stuff up out of whole cloth...repeatedly.  His supporters (and those who claim they don't support him but want to "give him a chance") ignore those.

LOL yeah, I forgot to include that in my list of reasons. Muslims cheering on 9/11 and 3-5 million illegal voters. 
Is it that Trump supporters don't think the commander in chief needs his judgment to be grounded in a factual record?
Fantasy and hyperbole won't interfere with weighty decisions of state?

(05-19-2017, 09:09 AM)GMDino Wrote: Trump may have had zero contact with the Russians.  He might actually not have known a thing his campaign staff or administration were/are doing.  I'd believe that.  His "management style" is to bark orders and wonder why no one got them to work because they were the best orders.  People told him. 
Just get the investigation started and over.  Someone will likely pay for the sins of the father...even if it isn't Trump himself.
Both side will claim victory and we'll all move on.

I don't think we are going to move on. The incompetent handling of Flynn and Comey will segue into new missteps. Trump has already contacted Flynn WHILE HE IS UNDER INVESTIGATION; now we find Trump told the Russians Comey was a "nut job" whose firing took the heat off the Russian investigation.

All eyes on his diplomatic tour now.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-19-2017, 12:07 AM)Benton Wrote: I don't think most politicians have staff members that have openly accepted payments from Russia for work completed.

(05-19-2017, 02:44 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh you mean pretend it didn't happen and then say it did but it didn't matter?  Yeah...dumb game.


Did they file the proper paperwork? You know, follow the law?

Otherwise false comparison.

Ok Obama's, make a line in the sand and stand by it, stop redrawing it.

But fyi,  Podesta did fail to fully disclose his position on the board of directors (he owned 75k shares) of Joule Unlimited and include it in his fed financial disclosures as required by law before the became Obama's Senior Advisor in Jan 2014. Joule' received upwards of $35 Mill from the Russian Government. 

So you were saying?

Also Clinton's $500k "speech fee" came right before Hillary signed off on the the 20% sale of the US Uranium. Coincidence? I think not.

Uranium One's chairman Russian Ian Telfer used his Family Foundation and donated another $2.35 million to the Clinton Foundation that Hillary failed to disclose, other people with ties to the company also made donations to the CF that was also not disclosed as per the agreement between Obama's WH and Hillary to publicly identify all donors. 

So what's the new line now?  
Or are you going to accept that I said money flows from both sides to each others politicians for "favors".

This whole Russian hacking/influence thing was not a big enough of a deal for Obama to do anything about it until Hillary actually lost????
More Politics as usual, gotta find someone to blame for personal failures.

[BoomerFan]

(05-18-2017, 08:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: To all the ones giddy lately.  What if the Independent Investigator finds no criminal wrongdoing, on Trump's part?  Going to accept him then?

I'm not expecting them to find something to prosecute. However if, in the process of the investigation Trump is put under oath for some extended length of time, I wouldn't be surprised if he perjures himself. 

[GMDino]

(05-19-2017, 05:45 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Ok Obama's, make a line in the sand and stand by it, stop redrawing it.

But fyi,  Podesta did fail to fully disclose his position on the board of directors (he owned 75k shares) of Joule Unlimited and include it in his fed financial disclosures as required by law before the became Obama's Senior Advisor in Jan 2014. Joule' received upwards of $35 Mill from the Russian Government. 

So you were saying?

Also Clinton's $500k "speech fee" came right before Hillary signed off on the the 20% sale of the US Uranium. Coincidence? I think not.

Uranium One's chairman Russian Ian Telfer used his Family Foundation and donated another $2.35 million to the Clinton Foundation that Hillary failed to disclose, other people with ties to the company also made donations to the CF that was also not disclosed as per the agreement between Obama's WH and Hillary to publicly identify all donors. 

So what's the new line now?  

Or are you going to accept that I said money flows from both sides to each others politicians for "favors".

This whole Russian hacking/influence thing was not a big enough of a deal for Obama to do anything about it until Hillary actually lost????
More Politics as usual, gotta find someone to blame for personal failures.

Look if you STILL believe that horsehockey we can end this conversation now.

Either get real facts or not...but you just look silly repeating conspiracy theories.

[GMDino]

[tigerseye]

Is that the pizza place where the crazy guy came in and shot one bullet to save the kids and the one bullet hit their hard drive?

[Dill]

(05-19-2017, 05:45 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Ok Obama's, make a line in the sand and stand by it, stop redrawing it.
But fyi,  Podesta did fail to fully disclose his position on the board of directors (he owned 75k shares) of Joule Unlimited and include it in his fed financial disclosures as required by law before the became Obama's Senior Advisor in Jan 2014. Joule' received upwards of $35 Mill from the Russian Government. 

So you were saying?

Also Clinton's $500k "speech fee" came right before Hillary signed off on the the 20% sale of the US Uranium. Coincidence? I think not.
Uranium One's chairman Russian Ian Telfer used his Family Foundation and donated another $2.35 million to the Clinton Foundation that Hillary failed to disclose, other people with ties to the company also made donations to the CF that was also not disclosed as per the agreement between Obama's WH and Hillary to publicly identify all donors. 

So what's the new line now?  
Or are you going to accept that I said money flows from both sides to each others politicians for "favors".

This whole Russian hacking/influence thing was not a big enough of a deal for Obama to do anything about it until Hillary actually lost????
More Politics as usual, gotta find someone to blame for personal failures.

Mike I am glad you continue to ask questions about this subject. You ask that we stop redrawing lines in the sand, as if somehow a threshold or standard had been changed in our discussion of Trump. But what line has been redrawn?

I am not sure if Dino said the current Russia scandal was simply about whom Russian money flowed to. If he did then you certainly refuted him with your $500,000 Clinton speech.

But if he did not say that, then the Clinton reference is beside the point. No equivalence. Of course, Hillary did not sign off on a sale of 20% of US Uranium. That was a Trump oversimplification which lives on only in the bubble. I cannot find any real Podesta/Joule scandal outside of Breitbart and websites like Stormfront, Freerepublic, Teaparty.org, girlsjust wannahaveguns, and megynkelly.org.  Can you provide me with a reliable link to the scandal you reference? It concerns me that erroneous claims continue to influence people's political evaluations. I would like to examine this one more closely to makes sure I am not in error.

Benton mentioned money paid for "work completed" and that critical word--"staff." I have made it pretty clear that the issue for me--my "line in the sand"-- has been

1) Trump's JUDGMENT as evident in his placement of an unstable, compromised general at the NERVE CENTER OF THE US NATIONAL SECURITY APPARATUS, knowing he had been compromised and despite warnings. He fired one FBI Director for warning him about Flynn and another for continuing to investigate him. He let Russian diplomats and a TASS journalist into the White House practically unvetted--with international fallout, including a TASS news coup.  He continues to make missteps almost daily. His own dysfunctional White House has been leaking bombshells that undermine him. What in Hillary and Obama's world compares to this?

And 2) a pattern of contacts between Trump people and Russians while they were interfering in the election. Today we learn the Russians bragged they thought Flynn was an asset who could be used to influence Trump. The Russians were actively contacting/cultivating other assests as well--Paige, Stone, and more. Which Obama or Clinton people have been implicated in an intel scandal like this?  That Flynn received money is not the primary concern. The concern is rather that that money directly moved US national security decisions in directions desired by the donors.

The equivalence to 1 and 2 is not a speech in Moscow or the sale of stock to Russian companies--the flow of money to both sides for "favors."

To summarize, the current storm is not simply about whether people accepted money from Russia.[/b] Anti-Trumpsters are not simply saying "Trump people accepted money from Russia and that"s all bad." So you could refute them by pointing out that one-time Democratic office holders ALSO had Russian dealings.

Rather it is about this: as Russia interfered in the US election to favor Trump, a number of Trump operatives were talking to Russians who were looking for intel assets. It appears the Russians successfully cultivated some of these. Most of these Trumpsters initially denied contact or "forgot" about it. Now we learn of 18 more undisclosed contacts.http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-contacts-idUSKCN18E106. And Trump appears to have used his office to obstruct this intel investigation. This is already bad, and at the bottom may be something infinitely worse--collusion with the Russians to throw the election. Impeachment. Way beyond "politics as usual" and blaming people for personal failures.

[Dill]

(05-19-2017, 11:44 PM)tigerseye Wrote: Is that the pizza place where the crazy guy came in and shot one bullet to save the kids and the one bullet hit their hard drive?

One of hose millions who sucked in fake news about Hillary. Yes. That guy.

[xxlt]

OP: Interesting.
XXLT: Tragic.

Tuh-may-toe, tuh-mah-toe

[hollodero]

Is this thread through? Good. Then I can abuse it.

Since subtle posts get zero audience here's a message to the Trump loyalists and the Trump haters: You're all morons. Really. There are only two kinds of people in this world, idiots and me, so the conclusion isn't far fetched. But I can expand.

Here's the Trump loyalist: He forces his brain to believe things that contradict everyday logic. It's their trench, as is drawing false equivalencies, also irrelevant equivalencies, distractions, layers of talking points serving as protection to address the truth, from the opponent and from himself, probably. Now he either doesn't see the contradiction and hangs around on Breitbart. Or he does see and dislikes Breitbart, does not watch Hannity, but nonetheless promotes their agenda, for it's the only one helping Trump. They know that there's a whole lot wrong with Trump. You can even persuaede them partially if you're moderate and respectful. They come out of the trenches if lured by reason that doesn't condemn. But as soon as the first anti-Trump comes along and says something slightly condescending, which could be more or less anyone, they snap back to the trench, as if held by a rubberband suddenly contracting.

Here's the Trump hater: He considers the Trump loyalist to be stupid. Which isn't inherently wrong, the wrong thing is that he thinks he himself isn't. He wonders why he can't get through to the loyalists, he wonders in 10.000 respectless, condescending terms. And he always overdoes it. Goes to places where he leaves the grounds of logic too, giving the other side marvellous talking points. Tells lies of his own, although more sophisticated. 24 million will get thrown off healthcare! Dramatic! Terrible! Misleading! Because in fact, most of these people will opt out voluntarily, which changes the whole narrative. But he rather sticks with the misleading "thrown off" term and gets all worked up on that - as if the new health care plan wasn't bad enough as it stands. Which, of course, it is, no misdirection necessary. But let's better overdo it. The often cited bubble doesn't just keep existing because of inner forces. It also doesn't pop because of outer forces.

Where are the moderates? They aren't remotely interesting. They go down in the debate. And the more extreme things get, the less important is reason. Trump, being as extreme as he is in many ways, is perfectly designed to rile up a political society like yours. If by chance or by planning, I do not yet know, but he is. However the outcome of all of this, the moderates, reasonable, consensus-oriented folk are the definite losers.

In other words, it is hopeless. I can not stress that enough, just like John Cleese. There is no hope.

Now do not get me wrong, I do not stand in the middle here. The Trump haters are right, all facts and hints and implications point to that, also everything Trump says, does or tweets. The Trump loyalists are in all probability on the wrong side of history. And after 100 days of Trump being president Trump, there's no excuse any longer. Standing by him now, even when mixed with slight critizism, means you probably have to own it for centuries to come. No point of yours is ever going to be completely valid ever again, for you were the guy sticking with the undermined government and it's incompetent, completely unfit ego-balloon on the top. Just because he wasn't an evil liberal, just because the other side can't possibly be right, the only explanation making any sense. Party over country.

Oh and btw. Obama warned Trump about Flynn. Now that is putting country over party. Hate Obama or like him, but it is. He could have kept silent and let Trump run into this open knife, what he of course did anyway, but still. In general, "the right" is worse than "the left", and way more often deliberately detached from facts and logic. No agenda, just observation. Still denying climate change alone underlines that.

Imho.
And no, I wasn't completely serious. But I still hope I didn't not offend anyone. You're also ugly, by the way. Yes, especially you.

[Dill]

(05-20-2017, 10:21 PM)hollodero Wrote: Is this thread through? Good. Then I can abuse it.

Since subtle posts get zero audience here's a message to the Trump loyalists and the Trump haters: You're all morons. Really. There are only two kinds of people in this world, idiots and me, so the conclusion isn't far fetched. But I can expand.

Here's the Trump loyalist: He forces his brain to believe things that contradict everyday logic. It's their trench, as is drawing false equivalencies, also irrelevant equivalencies, distractions, layers of talking points serving as protection to address the truth, from the opponent and from himself, probably. Now he either doesn't see the contradiction and hangs around on Breitbart. Or he does see and dislikes Breitbart, does not watch Hannity, but nonetheless promotes their agenda, for it's the only one helping Trump. They know that there's a whole lot wrong with Trump. You can even persuaede them partially if you're moderate and respectful. They come out of the trenches if lured by reason that doesn't condemn. But as soon as the first anti-Trump comes along and says something slightly condescending, which could be more or less anyone, they snap back to the trench, as if held by a rubberband suddenly contracting.

Here's the Trump hater: He considers the Trump loyalist to be stupid. Which isn't inherently wrong, the wrong thing is that he thinks he himself isn't. He wonders why he can't get through to the loyalists, he wonders in 10.000 respectless, condescending terms. And he always overdoes it. Goes to places where he leaves the grounds of logic too, giving the other side marvellous talking points. Tells lies of his own, although more sophisticated. 24 million will get thrown off healthcare! Dramatic! Terrible! Misleading! Because in fact, most of these people will opt out voluntarily, which changes the whole narrative. But he rather sticks with the misleading "thrown off" term and gets all worked up on that - as if the new health care plan wasn't bad enough as it stands. Which, of course, it is, no misdirection necessary. But let's better overdo it. The often cited bubble doesn't just keep existing because of inner forces. It also doesn't pop because of outer forces.

Where are the moderates? They aren't remotely interesting. They go down in the debate. And the more extreme things get, the less important is reason. Trump, being as extreme as he is in many ways, is perfectly designed to rile up a political society like yours. If by chance or by planning, I do not yet know, but he is. However the outcome of all of this, the moderates, reasonable, consensus-oriented folk are the definite losers.

In other words, it is hopeless. I can not stress that enough, just like John Cleese. There is no hope.

Now do not get me wrong, I do not stand in the middle here. The Trump haters are right, all facts and hints and implications point to that, also everything Trump says, does or tweets. The Trump loyalists are in all probability on the wrong side of history. And after 100 days of Trump being president Trump, there's no excuse any longer. Standing by him now, even when mixed with slight critizism, means you probably have to own it for centuries to come. No point of yours is ever going to be completely valid ever again, for you were the guy sticking with the undermined government and it's incompetent, completely unfit ego-balloon on the top. Just because he wasn't an evil liberal, just because the other side can't possibly be right, the only explanation making any sense. Party over country.

Oh and btw. Obama warned Trump about Flynn. Now that is putting country over party. Hate Obama or like him, but it is. He could have kept silent and let Trump run into this open knife, what he of course did anyway, but still. In general, "the right" is worse than "the left", and way more often deliberately detached from facts and logic. No agenda, just observation. Still denying climate change alone underlines that.

Imho.
And no, I wasn't completely serious. But I still hope I didn't not offend anyone. You're also ugly, by the way. Yes, especially you.

lol . . .wait . . .what. . . ME???

[hollodero]

(05-21-2017, 04:21 AM)Dill Wrote: lol . . .wait . . .what. . .  ME???

Especially! I don't know of course, it's just how I picture you. Based on your nickname alone. That resembles the most pointless spice in human history. One only Germans use for their mashed potatoes, probably to torture their tastebuds as punishment for their ancestors' sins or because they have no taste at all. No one should carry a nick like that. Very dill-informed.

- Nothing personal of course, I just make my pledge for being called offensive rookie of the year.