Trump Loyalists

[Griever]

(05-19-2017, 04:23 AM)Dill Wrote: Not sure what you mean by "accept him" Sunset.

My complaints about Trump predate the Russian investigation and the Comey firing.

First, he is not knowledgeable enough, not competent enough, and not emotionally mature enough to do the job. The problems he faces now are largely of his own creation. Who told him to tweet that Obama wiretapped him? Who told him to publicly threaten an official he had just fired? He is impulsive, angry and childish. Was it his "business acumen" that told him to  make an unstable, ethically compromised general his National Security Advisor? You cannot name a single president in US history who has floundered like this in his first hundred days.

Second, his character is flawed. Better said, he has a personality disorder. It partly manifest in how he turns all subjects and occasions back to himself, and partly manifest in the bullying, the misogyny. People who support Trump legitimate this behavior. To put this another way, Trump corrupts his supporters, drags down their ethical standards.

Third, and this is minor compared to the others, is his language. The mangled, rambling, incomplete sentences are reminiscent of Palin.  The limited vocabulary is always coupled with constant hyperbole--his win was a historic landslide and, as he reminded us in his Liberty commencement address, no president has EVER been persecuted and treated as unjustly as he is now.  (See 2 above if your not clear why the guy would be filling commencement speech for students with his own self-pity.)

So even if he is exonerated of criminal wrongdoing--like deliberate collusion with Russia--then no, I am not going to embrace the guy as a fit representative of the United States.  Trump's missteps will continue. This opera is a long ways from over.

all valid points but will be ignored by the trumpsters here

[GMDino]

(05-19-2017, 09:02 AM)Griever Wrote: all valid points but will be ignored by the trumpsters here

More to the point:  Trump has been proven to just make stuff up out of whole cloth...repeatedly.  His supporters (and those who claim they don't support him but want to "give him a chance") ignore those.

It's that kind of blind faith that makes me understand that if in this one case Trump is completely free and clear they will never believe any of the other things he says and does.

They are the faithful waiting for the "miracle" that they can use to remove any lingering doubt.

Trump may have had zero contact with the Russians.  He might actually not have known a thing his campaign staff or administration were/are doing.  I'd believe that.  His "management style" is to bark orders and wonder why no one got them to work because they were the best orders.  People told him. 

That's why he likes family in positions of power around him.  They (likely) won't quit when he's pounding the desk and demanding answers...that he doesn't have the time or the staying power to sit and listen to.

Just get the investigation started and over.  Someone will likely pay for the sins of the father...even if it isn't Trump himself.

Both side will claim victory and we'll all move on.

But 4 months into his first year Trump's actions and words are what have lead to this.  

Not the "lefties".  

Not the Democrats in office. 

Not "the media".

Trump.

Now let's see what happens.

[*bfine32*]

(05-19-2017, 04:23 AM)Dill Wrote: Not sure what you mean by "accept him" Sunset.

My complaints about Trump predate the Russian investigation and the Comey firing.

First, he is not knowledgeable enough, not competent enough, and not emotionally mature enough to do the job. The problems he faces now are largely of his own creation. Who told him to tweet that Obama wiretapped him? Who told him to publicly threaten an official he had just fired? He is impulsive, angry and childish. Was it his "business acumen" that told him to  make an unstable, ethically compromised general his National Security Advisor? You cannot name a single president in US history who has floundered like this in his first hundred days.

Second, his character is flawed. Better said, he has a personality disorder. It partly manifest in how he turns all subjects and occasions back to himself, and partly manifest in the bullying, the misogyny. People who support Trump legitimate this behavior. To put this another way, Trump corrupts his supporters, drags down their ethical standards.

Third, and this is minor compared to the others, is his language. The mangled, rambling, incomplete sentences are reminiscent of Palin.  The limited vocabulary is always coupled with constant hyperbole--his win was a historic landslide and, as he reminded us in his Liberty commencement address, no president has EVER been persecuted and treated as unjustly as he is now.  (See 2 above if your not clear why the guy would be filling commencement speech for students with his own self-pity.)

So even if he is exonerated of criminal wrongdoing--like deliberate collusion with Russia--then no, I am not going to embrace the guy as a fit representative of the United States.  Trump's missteps will continue. This opera is a long ways from over.

These are all your opinions so you could have simply answered "No, I will not accept him if he is exonerated because I don't like him as a person. # Not my President"

I will agree that he bring problems upon himself. It all started when he won the GE and made the left very, very mad.

[GMDino]

The usual suspects jump in to pat themselves on the back for "criticising Trump" but at the same time litter every Trump thread with "why are you posting about Trump again" and "Trump gets picked on for everything so we well talk about that instead of this issue."

That is what the (non)supporters do.

"Give him a chance."

CNN mentioned Trump gets two scoops of ice cream while everyone else gets one...so there can be no threads on Trump being told Flynn was under investigation and hiring him anyway and then blaming Obama.

It's silly.

I know I will personally make fun every Trump faux pas.  I think he's an awful human being completely unfit to hold the office he is in.  But he won the election so those rips on his lack of language skills, inability to complete a thought, etc are just sprinkles on the (two) scoops of ice cream that is his inability to understand the most rudimentary responsibilities of being the POTUS. He CHOOSES to remain uninformed and to allow underlings to handle the hard stuff while he makes the decisions. Heck, he's still tweeting about Clinton and Obama "scandals" and "illegal activities" with nothing other than his own beliefs behind them.

"Give him a chance."

He's 70 and not going to "change".

That doesn't mean policy won't be good for the country.  That doesn't mean that nothing good will happen.  It means he is lacking in the personal responsibility that has been the right's talking point for years.  Accept the credit and pass the blame.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Before Trump was even inaugurated you had calls for his impeachment. Every single thing he does provokes howls of outrage as if he just stepped on an infant. You'll excuse the more rational posters among us for not joining in your perpetual state of hysterical outrage. As predicted (easily) if you refuse to join the party you're a jackbooted Trump supporter who defends his every move.


You're either with us or you're with the terrorists!

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/the-anti-anti-trump-right/516474/

The Anti-anti-Trump

[GMDino]

(05-19-2017, 11:53 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Before Trump was even inaugurated you had calls for his impeachment.  Every single thing he does provokes howls of outrage as if he just stepped on an infant.  You'll excuse the more rational posters among us for not joining in your perpetual state of hysterical outrage.  As predicted (easily) if you refuse to join the party you're a jackbooted Trump supporter who defends his every move.


You're either with us or you're with the terrorists!

(05-19-2017, 11:43 AM)GMDino Wrote: The usual suspects jump in to pat themselves on the back for "criticising Trump" but at the same time litter every Trump thread with "why are you posting about Trump again" and "Trump gets picked on for everything so we well talk about that instead of this issue."

CNN mentioned Trump gets two scoops of ice cream while everyone else gets one...so there can be no threads on Trump being told Flynn was under investigation and hiring him anyway and then blaming Obama.

It's silly.

"Predicted"

[GMDino]

(05-19-2017, 12:02 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/the-anti-anti-trump-right/516474/

The Anti-anti-Trump

From the article:

Quote:At the other extreme sit conservatives like my Atlantic colleague David Frum, Johns Hopkins School of Advanced and International Studies Professor Eliot Cohen, and New York Times columnist David Brooks, who warned against Trump during the campaign, and believe he is now vindicating their fears.




For them, conservatism is about prudence, inherited wisdom, and a government that first does no harm; they see none of those virtues in Trump. They see themselves as the inheritors of a rich conservative intellectual tradition; Trump’s ignorance embarrasses them. And they believe America should stand for ideals that transcend race, religion and geography; they fear white Christian identity politics in their bones. They are, to my mind, highly admirable. But they don’t have much of a base. They can denounce Trump because they work for institutions that don’t primarily cater to his supporters.

In between are the conservatives who will tip the balance. Unlike Breitbart and company, they generally opposed Trump during the campaign. Unlike Brooks and company, they serve a conservative audience that now overwhelmingly backs him. More than Sean Hannity, they care about the principles that Trump threatens: free trade, America’s alliances overseas, an independent judiciary, a free press and a basic respect for the truth. But they work for conservative publications and networks. Their business model is opposing the left. And that means opposing the people who oppose Trump.

...

Quote:Step number one: Accuse Trump’s opponents of hyperbole. Democrats, declared John Fund on February 5, are in a “rush to portray Donald Trump as some kind of ‘fascist in chief.’” Liberals, argued Jonathan Tobin on February 6, believe “Trump’s intemperate language about a judge is an unprecedented step down the slippery slope to dictatorship.” Liberal Jews, claimed Nachama Soloveichik that same day, “are falling over one another to label President Trump the latest incarnation of Jew-haters from Pharaoh to Haman to Hitler.” (Full disclosure: I’m one of the liberal Jews she cites, though I’m unaware of ever having made such an analogy).

Step number two: Briefly acknowledge Trump’s flaws while insisting they’re being massively exaggerated. On December 16, David Harsanyi declared that, “While I’m no fan of Trump, Democrats have been demanding that I panic over every Cabinet pick, every statement, and every event. It’s not normal.” On February 5, Fund acknowledged that, “Donald Trump has a knack for alienating many voters and saying stupid things. But his biggest asset may be that his over-the-top adversaries are even better at painting themselves in negative terms.” On February 6, Tobin insisted that, “whatever one may think of Trump’s [executive] orders — which were sloppily drawn and clumsily implemented but arguably well within the scope of presidential powers as authorized by relevant legislation — the claims that Trump’s intemperate language about a judge is an unprecedented step down the slippery slope to dictatorship don’t stand up to scrutiny.”

Exactly the "Trump loyalist".

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Quote:On December 16, David Harsanyi declared that, “While I’m no fan of Trump, Democrats have been demanding that I panic over every Cabinet pick, every statement, and every event. It’s not normal.” On February 5, Fund acknowledged that, “Donald Trump has a knack for alienating many voters and saying stupid things. But his biggest asset may be that his over-the-top adversaries are even better at painting themselves in negative terms.” On February 6, Tobin insisted that, “whatever one may think of Trump’s [executive] orders — which were sloppily drawn and clumsily implemented but arguably well within the scope of presidential powers as authorized by relevant legislation — the claims that Trump’s intemperate language about a judge is an unprecedented step down the slippery slope to dictatorship don’t stand up to scrutiny.”

It's quite telling that someone could post this quote as an example of an irrational person.

[*michaelsean*]

(05-19-2017, 12:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's quite telling that someone could post this quote as an example of an irrational person.

Yeah that was pretty much the whole column.

[GMDino]

Seems the article struck a nerve.  Mirrors are tough on some people in society.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Example of rational poster;

Obama criticism:

I'm not a fan of the ACA, I don't like the mandate and imposed penalty for not acquiring health insurance.

I think Obama's stance on Syria, especially his failing to back up his "red line" promise is going to weaken our standing in the Middle East and embolden Russia.

Trump criticism:

While I realize clear precedent gives the POTUS the right to curb, or even halt, immigration into the United States I think his comments during the campaign about a "muslim ban" reveal his true motives regarding these executive orders.

Trump's use of twitter to attack and criticize anyone who disagrees with him both cheapens the office of the POTUS and reveals a lack of character on his part.


Examples of irrational posters;

Obama criticism:

Obama is a muslim born in Kenya who is married to a transsexual. Remember that one time he called Michelle Obama, Mike!?!?

Obama didn't respond in Syria and is weak on Iran because he hates western society and white people in general.

Trump criticism:

Trump should be impeached the second he is sworn into office because of the Emoluments Clause.

Trump, Bannon and Sessions are all white nationalist racists who want to bring back the days of apartheid and put "brown people" in their place.

[*bfine32*]

(05-19-2017, 11:53 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Before Trump was even inaugurated you had calls for his impeachment.  Every single thing he does provokes howls of outrage as if he just stepped on an infant.  You'll excuse the more rational posters among us for not joining in your perpetual state of hysterical outrage.  As predicted (easily) if you refuse to join the party you're a jackbooted Trump supporter who defends his every move.


You're either with us or you're with the terrorists!

The night of the GE I said we will now spend the next 4-8 years being exactly what we have hated for the past 8. As modest as I am; I must say no words spoken were ever more profound. Recently I have even seen the left excusing or "ignoring" homophobic and misogynistic comments.

There was a time that the Left could claim a moral superiority of being more accepting. That claim has been exposed to be nothing more than a crafted façade.

[GMDino]

I think the other thing about "loyalists" is they don't care about anything except he beat Clinton.

And I can't blame people for that.  Even some Democrats didn't want Clinton as a matter of the whole "political dynasty" line of thought.

I still have friends who believe she will go to jail for...something.  Or that the Clinton Foundation was the one shut down not the Trump one.

There's a real disconnect out there.

And it gets amplified by the little things like Trump's golfing, Melania not living in DC, Trump's tweets, etc.

You have to wade through the noise to get to the details of the bigger stuff.  And by then the loyalists have made it all about the noise and the details don't matter.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-18-2017, 07:58 PM)GMDino Wrote: The amazing thing is your argument is almost word for word (minus "weasel") from FOX news on XM radio this afternoon.

Almost word for word.

Question though:  Do all major politicians lie and "forget" about their connections with Russia?  

Reality...not your friend apparently.

I don't watch FoxNews and I have no idea what XM radio is, I listen to music. I read news from several places, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out the game they are all playing.

(05-19-2017, 05:30 AM)Dill Wrote: And if elected president, most wouldn't then appoint said staffer to be their NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER.

Or even better, their husband? Bill accepted $500k from Russians for "speaking fees". That's 10X the amount Flyn got.
Mr Podesta via Joule Energy company.

You can find money coming from somewhere on just about everyone in Washington. Open your eyes.

[GMDino]

(05-19-2017, 02:39 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I don't watch FoxNews and I have no idea what XM radio is, I listen to music. I read news from several places, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out the game they are all playing.

Oh you mean pretend it didn't happen and then say it did but it didn't matter? Yeah...dumb game.

(05-19-2017, 02:39 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Or even better, their husband? Bill accepted $500k from Russians for "speaking fees". That's 10X the amount Flyn got.
Mr Podesta via Joule Energy company.

You can find money coming from somewhere on just about everyone in Washington. Open your eyes.

Did they file the proper paperwork? You know, follow the law?

Otherwise false comparison.

[Goalpost]

Im good that Trump filled a Supreme Court justice if nothing else.

He's also reduced illegal immigration without even building a wall based on rhetoric, although I think it was decreasing anyway.

I believe a tax change will eventually go thru later this year.

I doubt healthcare goes anywhere near term.

[Dill]

(05-19-2017, 10:28 AM)bfine32 Wrote:
These are all your opinions so you could have simply answered "No, I will not accept him if he is exonerated because I don't like him as a person. # Not my President"

I will agree that he bring problems upon himself. It all started when he won the GE and made the left very, very mad.

What you call "opinions" are actually reasons based upon Trump's actions.

And because I support my positions with reasons, that is why I did not just say "No, I will not accept him if he is exonerated." 

If I just say "I don't like him as a person," that spins away all the very solid reasons for not wanting an incompetent, unethical person to be president.  And Trumpsters get to think this is all about 'pinions and everyone's got one haters will hate and it would be the same if competent Hillary were elected and Obama made just as many mistakes as Trump etc.

"He won the GE and made the left very, very mad" is a similar oversimplification, which separates causes from effects.  Rather like reducing Trump's security breach to "Trump told Russia a secret."

Oversimplification appears to be your primary tactic.Trumpsters like, anti-Trumpsters see that, along with false equivalence, as the basis of TrumpWorld. Anti-Trumpsters like giving reasons based on steadily increasing information about current politics; Trumpsters see that as the basis of "establishment" thinking.

Oversimplification appears to be at the root of many of Trump's blunders as well.  "We are both fighting ISIS, sowhy not share that cool intel we promised the Israelis we would share with no one so as not to compromise their asset in ISIS!"

[Dill]

(05-19-2017, 02:39 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Dill Wrote: And if elected president, most wouldn't then appoint said staffer to be their NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER.

Or even better, their husband? Bill accepted $500k from Russians for "speaking fees". That's 10X the amount Flyn got.
Mr Podesta via Joule Energy company.

You can find money coming from somewhere on just about everyone in Washington. Open your eyes.

Is it that you think the complaint about Flynn and Montafort and Paige is simply that they took money from Russians? That's the basis of this false equivalence?

No way Hillary appoints Bill NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER or SECRETARY OF STATE. And no way Bill hides his foreign income. No way Hillary appoints a compromised general because she thinks he's a great guy.

$500K is exactly the amount Flynn got from Turkey, before he nixed an Obama plan to take Raqqa which Turkey did not agree with.
And Trump fired the woman who warned him about Flynn.

JUDGMENT is the issue here, Mike, and competence.

[Dill]

Quote: Wrote:Step number one: Accuse Trump’s opponents of hyperbole. Democrats, declared John Fund on February 5, are in a “rush to portray Donald Trump as some kind of ‘fascist in chief.’” Liberals, argued Jonathan Tobin on February 6, believe “Trump’s intemperate language about a judge is an unprecedented step down the slippery slope to dictatorship.” Liberal Jews, claimed Nachama Soloveichik that same day, “are falling over one another to label President Trump the latest incarnation of Jew-haters from Pharaoh to Haman to Hitler.” (Full disclosure: I’m one of the liberal Jews she cites, though I’m unaware of ever having made such an analogy).

(05-19-2017, 11:53 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Before Trump was even inaugurated you had calls for his impeachment.  Every single thing he does provokes howls of outrage as if he just stepped on an infant.  You'll excuse the more rational posters among us for not joining in your perpetual state of hysterical outrage.  As predicted (easily) if you refuse to join the party you're a jackbooted Trump supporter who defends his every move.

You're either with us or you're with the terrorists!

Predictable? Yes. Rational? No. Hysterical outrage? Quite possibly.