Once again, Trump moves to align America with the East and against the West. Will his supporters uncover their eyes and unplug their ears and stand up for America? Or will these supposedly America first people continue to expose themselves as Anti America/Democracy? And when will we as Americans hold these traitors accountable like we do those who dare to kneel during some song from the 1800's.....
(07-10-2018, 10:39 AM)jj22 Wrote: Once again, Trump moves to align America with the East and against the West. Will his supporters uncover their eyes and unplug their ears and stand up for America? Or will these supposedly America first people continue to expose themselves as Anti America/Democracy? And when will we as Americans hold these traitors accountable like we do those who dare to kneel during some song from the 1800's.....
And there are still some who think Trump doesn't want America aligned with Russia and SK and against the West......
First of all, your premise, a NK, Russia and USA triumvirate, is inane and has no basis in fact.
Here are a few rational facts to counter the hysteria. The NATO nations, especially Germany, have long allowed the US to subsidize their national defense. The US pays an enormous amount of money to field the finest military on the planet, freeing up NATO allies to pay far less on their own military as they can shelter under the US umbrella. This allows them to spend money they'd otherwise be forced to spend on national defense on infrastructure, expanding their economy and on social programs. If you're familiar with the old term "guns or butter" the US has been paying for the guns so many of their allies can spend all their money on butter. In this way the US has been taken advantage of by our allies.
Now, there are definite soft and hard power benefits to being the biggest cog, by far, in the world's most powerful military alliance, by far. This does not change the fact that, a few nations aside, the US has been shouldering the burden of defending the NATO alliance. Trump is very correct to attempt to rectify this situation as it is patently unfair. How he goes about doing it is, IMO, often counter productive, and is certainly acerbic and outside the norm, but his central point is a sound one.
Now, on to Russia and NK. It is a truism that you treat the ones you love the worst, i.e. you can be far more rude or inconsiderate to a family member or close friend than you can to a casual acquaintance or work associate. When dealing with potentially hostile, or at the very least adversarial, nations you must be far less strident in your language. I agree that Trump is far more comfortable with world leaders of an autocratic bent. This should surprise no one as the man is used to running a business (spare me how well you think he does this, it's irrelevant to the point being made) and being the final decision maker. Businesses are far more autocratic by nature than western government republics/democracies. Consensus building is not necessary, at the very least not on anything remotely like the scale required in government. So Trump being more comfortable with leaders acquainted with the same leadership style and structure that he is used to makes logical sense.
Where people like you go off the rails, and totally lose any rational non-partisan person contemplating your arguments, is in the assessment that Trump is going to eschew old alliances in favor of ones with autocratic governments. This will not happen and is not in danger of happening. Your side of this argument also loses credibility as in one moment "Trump is going to war with North Korea!" and the next you're complaining, "Trump is actually going to meet with Kim!". Pick a preferred course of action and stick with it, it will at least lend your arguments some credibility. Your argument also loses steam when confronted by the fact that the most powerful autocratic regime in the world, China, is currently dead center in Trump's crosshairs. I've said it from the moment he was elected POTUS, if Trump can peel Russia away from the Chinese orbit, a position they are only in to thumb their nose at the US, then his entire presidency will be worth it. If you want to continue to bemoan the inevitable alliance with Russia and North Korea please feel free to do so, just don't expect me or many others to join your party.
Sorry guy. Didn't read all of that. But I'll never stand with Russia a country with enough nukes pointed at us to blow us off the map in 10 minutes while attacking our Allies that have lost men and women along side of our Vets to protect our liberties. I know yall want us to hate the Germans, Britain's, and other Western/European Allies, but I love this great Country, and will never stand with those out to see our destruction.
But keep doing Putins work by attacking NATO. He certainly is applauding you.
Trump isn't even trying to hide his admiration for Russia/NK. Republicans are secretly flying to Moscow to meet with Russian spy's and you think they are going to stop the alliance? Gullible. The Trump alignment (America) with Russia is in full force, and I guess you'll wake up one day and wonder how it happened.
Quote:"Success doesn’t mean every single move they make is good" ~ Anonymous "Let not the dumb have to educate" ~ jj22
(07-10-2018, 11:06 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: First of all, your premise, a NK, Russia and USA triumvirate, is inane and has no basis in fact.
Here are a few rational facts to counter the hysteria. The NATO nations, especially Germany, have long allowed the US to subsidize their national defense. The US pays an enormous amount of money to field the finest military on the planet, freeing up NATO allies to pay far less on their own military as they can shelter under the US umbrella. This allows them to spend money they'd otherwise be forced to spend on national defense on infrastructure, expanding their economy and on social programs. If you're familiar with the old term "guns or butter" the US has been paying for the guns so many of their allies can spend all their money on butter. In this way the US has been taken advantage of by our allies.
Now, there are definite soft and hard power benefits to being the biggest cog, by far, in the world's most powerful military alliance, by far. This does not change the fact that, a few nations aside, the US has been shouldering the burden of defending the NATO alliance. Trump is very correct to attempt to rectify this situation as it is patently unfair. How he goes about doing it is, IMO, often counter productive, and is certainly acerbic and outside the norm, but his central point is a sound one.
Now, on to Russia and NK. It is a truism that you treat the ones you love the worst, i.e. you can be far more rude or inconsiderate to a family member or close friend than you can to a casual acquaintance or work associate. When dealing with potentially hostile, or at the very least adversarial, nations you must be far less strident in your language. I agree that Trump is far more comfortable with world leaders of an autocratic bent. This should surprise no one as the man is used to running a business (spare me how well you think he does this, it's irrelevant to the point being made) and being the final decision maker. Businesses are far more autocratic by nature than western government republics/democracies. Consensus building is not necessary, at the very least not on anything remotely like the scale required in government. So Trump being more comfortable with leaders acquainted with the same leadership style and structure that he is used to makes logical sense.
Where people like you go off the rails, and totally lose any rational non-partisan person contemplating your arguments, is in the assessment that Trump is going to eschew old alliances in favor of ones with autocratic governments. This will not happen and is not in danger of happening.
Except his pattern has been to side with Putin at every turn. Every turn. That's not just "tough love" for our allies...that's siding with Russia over our allies. Right down to his statements about them being back in the G8.
He has spoke on eschewing old alliances. It's not going off the rails to repeat what he says and question his motives.
And saying his prefered leadership "style" is more like autocrats is not reassuring or even a good argument. He's not the leader of an autocratic country. If he was able to switch styles depending on who he is dealing with I'd give him a little credit. Instead he's a one trick pony: Slam/slander/say how great he is.
(07-10-2018, 11:06 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Your side of this argument also loses credibility as in one moment "Trump is going to war with North Korea!" and the next you're complaining, "Trump is actually going to meet with Kim!". Pick a preferred course of action and stick with it, it will at least lend your arguments some credibility. Your argument also loses steam when confronted by the fact that the most powerful autocratic regime in the world, China, is currently dead center in Trump's crosshairs. I've said it from the moment he was elected POTUS, if Trump can peel Russia away from the Chinese orbit, a position they are only in to thumb their nose at the US, then his entire presidency will be worth it. If you want to continue to bemoan the inevitable alliance with Russia and North Korea please feel free to do so, just don't expect me or many others to join your party.
It's difficult to keep up with a "course of action" when Trump brags about the size of his "button" one day and then loves Kim the next.
It's not wrong to suggest he wants war while he's in his tweetstorm mode and then complain that he legitimized a ruthless dictator and went on national television and said how wonderful he is. That is simply responding to what the dotard says.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
I'm just wondering how much longer we have to listen to Trump supporters excuse and explain his love and admiration for everything Putin. It's got to suck. Especially given they are supposed to be so pro America.
Quote:"Success doesn’t mean every single move they make is good" ~ Anonymous "Let not the dumb have to educate" ~ jj22
(07-10-2018, 11:33 AM)jj22 Wrote: I'm just wondering how much longer we have to listen to Trump supporters excuse and explain his love and admiration for everything Putin. It's got to suck. Especially given they are supposed to be so pro America.
The love of Putin came before Trump. For years we were hearing right-wing pundits and voters talk about what a take-charge real man Putin is and what a wimpy beta ***** Obama is. Trump is our version of the fake democracy, plutocrat who is going to make the rich richer and make the poor manlier. It's like when people think rooting for a particular football team makes them tougher or better or blah blah blah.
It's only natural that Trump fits in better with leaders like Putin and Kim Jong-un than he does with the European and Canadian types who represent semi-reasonable democracies. We don't want that crap, we want someone who we think is on our side breaking the rules and forcing his (our) will on others. The ends justify the means.
True, the GOP base has long had affection for Putin. Specifically during the Obama years when they fell head over hills with him over his shirtless horseback pic. They actually preferred Putin to Obama. That's carried over with the election of Trump. Putin knew what party to help win.
Just another reason those expecting the GOP led congress to protect us from a alliance with Russia isn't dealing in reality.
Quote:"Success doesn’t mean every single move they make is good" ~ Anonymous "Let not the dumb have to educate" ~ jj22
(07-10-2018, 11:51 AM)jj22 Wrote: True, the GOP base has long had affection for Putin. Specifically during the Obama years when they fell head over hills with him over his shirtless horseback pic. They actually preferred Putin to Obama. That's carried over with the election of Trump. Putin knew what party to help win.
Just another reason those expecting the GOP led congress to protect us from a alliance with Russia isn't dealing in reality.
Add to the fact that Obama was characterized as a pseudo-dictator who was forcing his liberal agenda upon Americans against their will and it's only natural a guy who vowed to fight back and break every rule he had to in order to restore what had been taken from us would get enough support to win. There is no scramble to justify what Trump does or is doing because we had 8 years to convince ourselves that the democrats had hijacked our fair democratic republic and Trump is only doing what is necessary to right the wrongs they foisted upon us against our will.
Convince people that your enemy is unreasonable, dangerous and unfair and your supporters will excuse, if not outright demand you do whatever it takes to defeat them. Hell, look at how much people who believe they will one day be judge by Jesus Christ himself love the idea of torturing/killing/executing/punishing bad people. They're bad! No crisis of conscience here! On the other side, I'm sure 4 years of Trump will have the left-wing powers that be and voters convinced that following the rules when another 4 years of Trump is looming would be stupid, as well. If the left is really as into voter fraud as people say they are, I expect them to really ramp things up this time.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
(07-10-2018, 11:06 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: First of all, your premise, a NK, Russia and USA triumvirate, is inane and has no basis in fact.
Here are a few rational facts to counter the hysteria. The NATO nations, especially Germany, have long allowed the US to subsidize their national defense. The US pays an enormous amount of money to field the finest military on the planet, freeing up NATO allies to pay far less on their own military as they can shelter under the US umbrella. This allows them to spend money they'd otherwise be forced to spend on national defense on infrastructure, expanding their economy and on social programs. If you're familiar with the old term "guns or butter" the US has been paying for the guns so many of their allies can spend all their money on butter. In this way the US has been taken advantage of by our allies.
Europe should spend more on defense and I agree with Trump in that sense. That being said, it's not like the US defense budget is so high because Germany doesn't pay their fair share. Europe wouldn't need the US miliary budget at the heights it is now, on the other hand I can't quite believe the US would spend any less if Germany were to pay more on defense.
(07-10-2018, 11:06 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So Trump being more comfortable with leaders acquainted with the same leadership style and structure that he is used to makes logical sense.
OK. If he's so stuck in his ways that he can't overcome this though, it also makes him incompetent for the job he's holding (leader of the free, non-autocratic world).
Also, this explanation alone, while I see some merit, is not the sole reason for all this weird Putin love and his subverting US alliances. I agree with your stance on NK, with Russia I have difficulties.
Putin invades other countries and tries to undermine all democracies very much including the American one, and Trump is not willing to call him out on that. As allies targeted similarly, who wouldn't be stunned by that.
(07-10-2018, 01:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It may be difficult to urge our allies to pay their fair share; especially, "stink eye" Merkle and her 1.2%
Same question to you, while I agree with Trump on that point in principle, do you think the US under Trump would spend any less on defense if Germany were up to those 2%.
(07-10-2018, 01:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As to the Russian meeting: What appears difficult about it?
It's highly irritating that the US leader and the man who attacks western democracies are on such good terms.
Also, that Trump goes with Putin alone. I don't trust him that much to get his facts straight and manipulate the master manipulator into following his wishes.
(07-10-2018, 02:03 PM)hollodero Wrote: Same question to you, while I agree with Trump on that point in principle, do you think the US under Trump would spend any less on defense if Germany were up to those 2%.
It's highly irritating that the US leader and the man who attacks western democracies are on such good terms.
Also, that Trump goes with Putin alone. I don't trust him that much to get his facts straight and manipulate the master manipulator into following his wishes.
1. We would dedicate less of our Defense spending on NATO. What's wrong with everyone giving the recommended 2%?
2. We have no idea what terms they are on. Maybe we will find out after the actual meeting.
(07-10-2018, 11:42 AM)Nately120 Wrote: The love of Putin came before Trump. For years we were hearing right-wing pundits and voters talk about what a take-charge real man Putin is and what a wimpy beta ***** Obama is. Trump is our version of the fake democracy, plutocrat who is going to make the rich richer and make the poor manlier. It's like when people think rooting for a particular football team makes them tougher or better or blah blah blah.
It's only natural that Trump fits in better with leaders like Putin and Kim Jong-un than he does with the European and Canadian types who represent semi-reasonable democracies. We don't want that crap, we want someone who we think is on our side breaking the rules and forcing his (our) will on others. The ends justify the means.
(07-10-2018, 11:51 AM)jj22 Wrote: True, the GOP base has long had affection for Putin. Specifically during the Obama years when they fell head over hills with him over his shirtless horseback pic. They actually preferred Putin to Obama. That's carried over with the election of Trump. Putin knew what party to help win.
Just another reason those expecting the GOP led congress to protect us from a alliance with Russia isn't dealing in reality.
To be fair, I remember Mitt Romney calling out Russia during the 2012 campaign debates, and criticizing the Obama administration and others for not being more critical. He considered Russia the U.S.'s number 1 political enemy in the world.
Now I am not defending Trump here or others in the GOP, but when the GOP candidate of 2012 debated with Obama on this, but taking the very anti-Russian side, it should be noted.
"Gov. Romney, I'm glad that you recognize that al-Qaida is a threat, because a few months ago when you were asked what's the biggest geopolitical threat facing America, you said Russia, not al-Qaida. You said Russia ... the 1980s, they're now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because, you know, the Cold War's been over for 20 years," Obama said.
(2012)
(also 2012)
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Yet oddly, you weren't furiously jerking yourself raw in a virtue signaling frenzy then. Why?
(07-10-2018, 02:51 PM)hollodero Wrote: As I stated multiple times, nothing. Europe should.
Trump just shouldn't blame Europe for US defense sepnding and the burden on US taxpayres.
Of course he should, He could point to those being redirected to fund things stateside such as the VA and/or homeland security/border security.
(07-10-2018, 03:35 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: "Gov. Romney, I'm glad that you recognize that al-Qaida is a threat, because a few months ago when you were asked what's the biggest geopolitical threat facing America, you said Russia, not al-Qaida. You said Russia ... the 1980s, they're now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because, you know, the Cold War's been over for 20 years," Obama said.
(2012)
(also 2012)
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Yet oddly, you weren't furiously jerking yourself raw in a virtue signaling frenzy then. Why?
I was going to discuss the actual geopolitical arena in 2012 vs now. Maybe even explain the context of the above.
But the bold suggests some heavy partisanship that a few around here would normally complain about so I won't add fuel to the fire.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
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