Trump Slams Allies in favor of Putin (again)...

[GMDino]

[BmorePat87]

(07-17-2018, 08:08 AM)Dill Wrote:
Actually, I don't see how anyone can say this for sure, since the electoral college was decided by about 80,000 votes spread across 4 states.

Three decades of Fox Faux news probably had more effect than anything on Hillary's negatives, and Comey's announced reopening of the investigation into the email scandal also might have had the most immediate pre-election impact. It seems quite possible that the swirl of disinformation, even though mostly targeting the right, could have suppressed enough centrist voters to give Trump the election.

I realize people don't like to go there, because if it is true, no one knows what to do and we are stuck with a bad leader chosen by an adversary.

At the end of the day, people voting in those states caused it. 

How they were influenced is beyond us. Certainly many things went into it, some completely false, but I don't think anyone who voted for him that was exposed to the Russian ads was ever going to vote for her. These ads only further entrenched people who were already deeply imbedded in fringe beliefs.

A case could be made that the DNC emails swayed Bernie voters away and towards Stein, but again, I don't know how much that really did. 

[Belsnickel]

(07-17-2018, 09:37 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: At the end of the day, people voting in those states caused it. 

How they were influenced is beyond us. Certainly many things went into it, some completely false, but I don't think anyone who voted for him that was exposed to the Russian ads was ever going to vote for her. These ads only further entrenched people who were already deeply imbedded in fringe beliefs.

A case could be made that the DNC emails swayed Bernie voters away and towards Stein, but again, I don't know how much that really did. 

I have to agree. I have maintained the opinion that Russia meddled, but they didn't alter the outcome of the election, really. There was a perfect storm of things that caused the 2016 result, not the least of which being Clinton having an enormous amount of baggage.

[GMDino]

(07-17-2018, 09:50 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have to agree. I have maintained the opinion that Russia meddled, but they didn't alter the outcome of the election, really. There was a perfect storm of things that caused the 2016 result, not the least of which being Clinton having an enormous amount of baggage.

The further we get away from 2016 the less I buy the "Clinton Baggage" excuse.

Most of her baggage was false stories from her opponents:  Uranium deal, child trafficking, "Clinton body count", Benghazi.

I'll buy people didn't want another Clinton in...but the excuse that she had "baggage" rings a little more hollow every day.  It's not like Trump didn't have plenty of baggage.

In the end people in the right states decided that they would rather have Trump for "some" reason.  

Economics?  The economy was already turned around.

Jobs? The unemployment rate was already going down.

National security?  Well, we see what Trump has done there with Russia. 

I know people who saw Trump for what he was (charlatan) and still voted for him because of the stories about Clinton.  "She" couldn't be trusted.  "She" was under investigation.  They weren't the "lock her up" crowd...just people who thought they had found truth in those stories.

I think Clinton had a hard time garnering enough support, yes.  But she still got not only more votes than Trump but the second most ever.  And Trump benefited from a foreign campaign to twist the truth (and in some cases outright lie) about his competition.

And they got what they wanted: A puppet.

[jj22]

Exactly. The Clinton "baggage" was fake Russian propaganda that was pushed and believed by American voters... That's how they effected the outcome of the election. Ok Hillary lost, but people slamming her for not being able to defeat Trump and Russia is asking an awful lot wouldn't you say? That's why I won't slam her as a candidate. She shouldn't have had to defeat a foreign power and Americans shouldn't keep slamming her for not being able to.


What I want to know is what all did Trump give up in his one on one with Putin. Putin is a master interrogator, Trump was way out of his league, and likely gave up all the secret Intel. We knew if Kim could play Trump, someone with Putin's intel background would get everything out of him. Its scary to think of what all Trump said since he didn't want any American representative with him and didn't take any notes according to reports. This should outrage us all.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-17-2018, 10:31 AM)jj22 Wrote: Exactly. The Clinton "baggage" was fake Russian propaganda that was believed by American voters...


What I want to know is what all did Trump give up in his one on one with Putin. Putin is a master interrogator, Trump was way out of his league, and likely gave up all the secret Intel. We knew if Kim could play Trump, someone with Putin's intel background would get everything out of him. Its scary to think of what all Trump said since he didn't want any American representative with him and didn't take any notes according to reports. This should outrage us all.

What entails "all the secret intel"?

[jj22]

Whatever Putin wanted to know about Americas plans for Syria, Iran, NK. Our Military. (You know all he had to say is Mr. Trump I've heard you guys have an excellent defense missile system, and Trump with his need to brag probably told all the business). Anything Putin has been dying to get info on. Putin is a top spy and knows what he is doing. Trump was not prepared to deal with Putin one on one with no paper trail. It's a scary thought given how unprepared Trump is with dealing with someone with Putin's skill set.

[Goalpost]

I don't think Russia influenced the election at all.

[*bfine32*]

(07-17-2018, 10:31 AM)jj22 Wrote: Exactly. The Clinton "baggage" was fake Russian propaganda that was pushed and believed by American voters... That's how they effected the outcome of the election. Ok Hillary lost, but people slamming her for not being able to defeat Trump and Russia is asking an awful lot wouldn't you say? That's why I won't slam her as a candidate. She shouldn't have had to defeat a foreign power and Americans shouldn't keep slamming her for not being able to.


What I want to know is what all did Trump give up in his one on one with Putin. Putin is a master interrogator, Trump was way out of his league, and likely gave up all the secret Intel. We knew if Kim could play Trump, someone with Putin's intel background would get everything out of him. Its scary to think of what all Trump said since he didn't want any American representative with him and didn't take any notes according to reports. This should outrage us all.

What false claim did Russia submit about Hills?

[jj22]

BFine have you not been paying attention to all the reports on the interference from both parties over the last 20 months? The Russian bots on social media, the fake Facebook news that has them scrambling to regain credibility? Besides some were already mentioned in posts above.

One of the biggest is the one you keep pushing that the DNC GASP favored a Democrat over a non Democrat. Folks (obviously) still believe that. And that was all pushed by the Russians as they attacked the DNC and Hillary.

Maybe people should read the indictments.

But it's not as juicy as believing crazy Russian conspiracy theories like Pizzagate.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-17-2018, 09:50 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have to agree. I have maintained the opinion that Russia meddled, but they didn't alter the outcome of the election, really. There was a perfect storm of things that caused the 2016 result, not the least of which being Clinton having an enormous amount of baggage.

Israel probably meddled more than Russia.  We meddle in the elections of other countries as well.  While I get the outrage over the DNC hack, as these actions are rarely so overt, this kind of thing goes on all the time.  Didn't we recently get lambasted for tapping into Merkel's private phone calls?  As for Clinton, I'd say it was less baggage than toxic name recognition. 

[*bfine32*]

Things that led me not to vote for Hillary:

Liberal views: 80%

Conducting Official government business from her personal server: 10%

Calling 1/4 of the US population Deplorable: 5%

Pandering to the special interest over the general interest: 4%

Reaction to Bill's affairs: 1%

Benghazi: 0%

Russians: 0%

[*bfine32*]

(07-17-2018, 11:02 AM)jj22 Wrote: BFine have you not been paying attention to all the reports on the interference from both parties over the last 20 months? The Russian bots on social media,  the fake Facebook news that has them scrambling to regain credibility? Besides some were already mentioned in posts above.

One of the biggest is the one you keep pushing that the DNC GASP favored a Democrat over a non Democrat. Folks (obviously) still believe that. And that was all pushed by the Russians as they attacked the DNC and Hillary.

Maybe people should read the indictments.

But it's not as juicy as believing crazy Russian conspiracy theories like Pizzagate.

I simply asked for one false claim that the Russians put out about Hills.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-17-2018, 10:09 AM)GMDino Wrote: The further we get away from 2016 the less I buy the "Clinton Baggage" excuse.

Most of her baggage was false stories from her opponents:  Uranium deal, child trafficking, "Clinton body count", Benghazi.

I'll buy people didn't want another Clinton in...but the excuse that she had "baggage" rings a little more hollow every day.  It's not like Trump didn't have plenty of baggage.

In the end people in the right states decided that they would rather have Trump for "some" reason.  

Economics?  The economy was already turned around.

Jobs? The unemployment rate was already going down.

National security?  Well, we see what Trump has done there with Russia. 

I know people who saw Trump for what he was (charlatan) and still voted for him because of the stories about Clinton.  "She" couldn't be trusted.  "She" was under investigation.  They weren't the "lock her up" crowd...just people who thought they had found truth in those stories.

I think Clinton had a hard time garnering enough support, yes.  But she still got not only more votes than Trump but the second most ever.  And Trump benefited from a foreign campaign to twist the truth (and in some cases outright lie) about his competition.

And they got what they wanted: A puppet.

Well, if you believe the women who have accused Bill Clinton of rape and sexual misconduct then Hillary actively engaged in attempts to deride the accusers and attack their credibility.  There's a special place in hell for women who don't help other women. 

[jj22]

The fact you think Hillary views are "liberal" was likely influenced by Russians. She's a Democrat, but a Dem from the old era of Dems. A "Reagan Democrat".

Hillary (and Bill) is further to the right then Conservatives want to mention in public. Likely why Bernie was able to attract so many, and Obama easily defeated her in 08.

[GMDino]

(07-17-2018, 11:10 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Things that led me not to vote for Hillary:

Liberal views: 80%

Conducting Official government business from her personal server: 10%

Calling 1/4 of the US population Deplorable: 5%

Pandering to the special interest over the general interest: 4%

Reaction to Bill's affairs: 1%

Benghazi: 0%

Russians: 0%

Good for you!

But how many WAY less smart people fell for that stuff?  We'll never know.  

Edit: And it only takes a few thousand in the right places.

Well I see them still posting about it on Facebook and Twitter, but we can't prove foreign intervention added to their wrongheadedness. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-17-2018, 11:12 AM)jj22 Wrote: The fact you think Hillary views are "liberal" was likely influenced by Russians. She's a Democrat, but a Dem from the old era of Dems. A "Reagan Democrat".

Hillary (and Bill) is further to the right then Conservatives want to mention in public. Likely why Bernie was able to attract so many, and Obama easily defeated her in 08.

I've freely admitted that Hills is about the most central we can hope for. But that doesn't change the fact that she's still left of center and I don't think the Russian's are to blame for that.  

[Bengalzona]

I wonder how much a POTUS costs?

[Bmoreblitz]

Wow a football player kneels and it's a disgrace. The President of the Untied States bends over for the former head of the KGB and one of the greatest threats on the planet and it's great diplomacy.

Trump threw his own intelligence agencies under the bus to impress a mass murdering dictator. When you are willing to sacrifice the work of thousands of those dedicated to safe guarding your country to win favor from someone who has spent decades trying to destroy that country you have absolutely 'bent over' for the enemy.

[Benton]

(07-17-2018, 11:40 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: I wonder how much a POTUS costs?

Dollars or rubles?