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**Sociopathicsteelerfan** · 03-27-2019, 12:26 AM

(03-26-2019, 11:41 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I am convinced that people who like to shoot things aren't divided by liberal/conservative, but by people who have already shot things/people who have not.

If you go plinking/clay shooting/etc even just once, I feel you will have an increased appreciation for the fun of it. Seems to me most of the people who hate guns/shooting have never fired a gun, didn't grow up around them, and their only experience about them are movies and news reports of crimes, are the ones who don't enjoy recreational shooting.

This is true for a very simple reason, shooting is empowering. We're constantly talking about empowering people, making them feel more confident. People who are physically fit and can handle themselves are more confident. We're always referring to empowering people as a huge ingredient in self esteem. Knowing how to use a firearm, responsibly, is incredibly empowering. No other tool can make an 85 year old woman close to the equivalent of a 21 year old man.

Not to mention that it's enormously fun on its own.

fredtoast · 03-27-2019, 01:29 AM

(03-27-2019, 12:26 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Knowing how to use a firearm, responsibly, is incredibly empowering.

Only if you are extremely insecure or paranoid to begin with.

Personally I have never felt the need of a gun to empower me. I can accomplish what I want without the need of a gun.

***Benton*** · 03-27-2019, 01:38 AM

(03-27-2019, 01:29 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Only if you are extremely insecure or paranoid to begin with.

Personally I have never felt the need of a gun to empower me. I can accomplish what I want without the need of a gun.

Guns are fun, used responsibly.

fredtoast · 03-27-2019, 01:54 AM

(03-27-2019, 01:38 AM)Benton Wrote: Guns are fun, used responsibly.

I own a gun. I was raised with guns.

It just worries me when people brag how a gun "empowers" them. It makes me wonder what exactly does it empower them to do that they could not do without a gun.

**hollodero** · 03-27-2019, 05:46 AM

(03-27-2019, 01:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I own a gun. I was raised with guns.

It just worries me when people brag how a gun "empowers" them. It makes me wonder what exactly does it empower them to do that they could not do without a gun.

That's not fair. It's not about actually doing something with the gun. It's more about being able to handle one if the necessity should arise. I live in a widely gun-free society and never held or shot a gun, I also don't feel the need to change that. But I understand the empowerment sentiment and can sympathize to an extent. It sure isn't a sign of extreme insecurity or paranoia and that's just not fair to say.

(Now don't get me wrong, I still believe the lenient US gun laws are borderline crazy. But that's not the point)

**GMDino** · 03-27-2019, 07:09 AM

(03-27-2019, 12:26 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is true for a very simple reason, shooting is empowering. We're constantly talking about empowering people, making them feel more confident. People who are physically fit and can handle themselves are more confident. We're always referring to empowering people as a huge ingredient in self esteem. Knowing how to use a firearm, responsibly, is incredibly empowering. No other tool can make an 85 year old woman close to the equivalent of a 21 year old man.

Not to mention that it's enormously fun on its own.

(03-27-2019, 05:46 AM)hollodero Wrote: That's not fair. It's not about actually doing something with the gun. It's more about being able to handle one if the necessity should arise. I live in a widely gun-free society and never held or shot a gun, I also don't feel the need to change that. But I understand the empowerment sentiment and can sympathize to an extent. It sure isn't a sign of extreme insecurity or paranoia and that's just not fair to say.

(Now don't get me wrong, I still believe the lenient US gun laws are borderline crazy. But that's not the point)

Well, that's kinda scary. That people can use a gun to make themselves "confident". I mean if someone has been threatened and beaten and feels they can't defend themself and they need a weapon to "empower" themself I can see that. It might make someone feel confident that they have "leveled" the playing field.

But I've been an overweight guy my entire life, never fired a gun either, and I'm pretty self-confident and have pretty good self-esteem because I base that on what I can do and don't pay attention to people who say I'm worth less than them because I can't do other things. I don't worry that the next guy will be better than me (even if they are).

What SSF describes is what I find most wrong with the gun nuts: The guns define them and make them "better" than they would be without them.

I'm sure they are fun (I know guys who go to machine gun events and who love shooting any time) and I think in many cases they are even necessary. I don't want to take anyone's guns away from them. But I also don't think that someone should have one just to feel "empowered" in life. Especially when so many men (mostly) feel so empowered they use their guns to settle disputes rather than handling them any other way.

**GMDino** · 03-27-2019, 08:35 AM

(03-27-2019, 07:09 AM)GMDino Wrote: Well, that's kinda scary. That people can use a gun to make themselves "confident". I mean if someone has been threatened and beaten and feels they can't defend themself and they need a weapon to "empower" themself I can see that. It might make someone feel confident that they have "leveled" the playing field.

But I've been an overweight guy my entire life, never fired a gun either, and I'm pretty self-confident and have pretty good self-esteem because I base that on what I can do and don't pay attention to people who say I'm worth less than them because I can't do other things. I don't worry that the next guy will be better than me (even if they are).

What SSF describes is what I find most wrong with the gun nuts: The guns define them and make them "better" than they would be without them.

I'm sure they are fun (I know guys who go to machine gun events and who love shooting any time) and I think in many cases they are even necessary. I don't want to take anyone's guns away from them. But I also don't think that someone should have one just to feel "empowered" in life. Especially when so many men (mostly) feel so empowered they use their guns to settle disputes rather than handling them any other way.

Quoting myself because I want to add, not edit: My feelings on guns "empowering" people also applies to gangs and anyone using it to commit a crime. It makes is "easier" in their minds.

**Belsnickel** · 03-27-2019, 08:51 AM

(03-26-2019, 11:41 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I am convinced that people who like to shoot things aren't divided by liberal/conservative, but by people who have already shot things/people who have not.

If you go plinking/clay shooting/etc even just once, I feel you will have an increased appreciation for the fun of it. Seems to me most of the people who hate guns/shooting have never fired a gun, didn't grow up around them, and their only experience about them are movies and news reports of crimes, are the ones who don't enjoy recreational shooting.

There is so much truth to this. Right now I am helping a candidate for our state legislature on policy issues. She's lived here about ten years at this point and is a pretty typical suburban mom type. Her husband is not outdoorsy, either. I don't think either one of them has handled a gun and she is a part of Mom's Demand Action and all that. Her opponent for the primary was born and raised around here. He got involved as a Bernie volunteer in the area (Bernie won, here). He gets to put on the good ol' boy look because he was raised out in the county. He grew up around the agricultural community and around the hunting and fishing (top ten in deer harvest each year, first in black bear harvest) and it shows not just in his community support but in the policies he focuses on.

My job with this candidate is to countrify her a little. One of the things I did was take her shooting. First time she ever held a gun. I did this with my wife years ago, as well. We shot a Ruger Mk II, a Ruger P95, a Remington 870, a Winchester '94, a Ruger 10/22, and a Remington 788. She had a blast. We talked about gun safety, what these are used for, and why they are an important part of this community. It gave her a better understanding of the issue because she got to see them as the tools they are. All of those (except the P95) are guns I've used for hunting. They've put meat on my table and the tables of many residents in the district she is wanting to represent. Not only that, but we had her husband and her son give it a try. I wasn't able to borrow something for the 4-year-old daughter, though. Anyway, it was a fun family activity that was done safely. So she got to see that side of things as well.

All that being said, I don't know if any of them will try a shotgun again because my 870 kicks like a mule. LOL

**Belsnickel** · 03-27-2019, 09:08 AM

(03-27-2019, 07:09 AM)GMDino Wrote: Well, that's kinda scary. That people can use a gun to make themselves "confident". I mean if someone has been threatened and beaten and feels they can't defend themself and they need a weapon to "empower" themself I can see that. It might make someone feel confident that they have "leveled" the playing field.

But I've been an overweight guy my entire life, never fired a gun either, and I'm pretty self-confident and have pretty good self-esteem because I base that on what I can do and don't pay attention to people who say I'm worth less than them because I can't do other things. I don't worry that the next guy will be better than me (even if they are).

What SSF describes is what I find most wrong with the gun nuts: The guns define them and make them "better" than they would be without them.

I'm sure they are fun (I know guys who go to machine gun events and who love shooting any time) and I think in many cases they are even necessary. I don't want to take anyone's guns away from them. But I also don't think that someone should have one just to feel "empowered" in life. Especially when so many men (mostly) feel so empowered they use their guns to settle disputes rather than handling them any other way.

I understand what you're saying. This is an issue with our society, though, not guns themselves. This is where my liberalness comes through. There are some huge differences between the types of people empowered by firearms, though. There are those for whom a small, concealed firearm is used to provide them some comfort in case of something happening. They aren't going out looking for trouble, they have it in case trouble comes to them. These are responsible and reasonable gun owners. There are those that keep them in their home, out of the reach of little hands, to give them piece of mind in case someone breaks in and they need to protect their family. These are responsible and reasonable gun owners. There are folks that take pride in being able to feed themselves and/or others. These are responsible and reasonable gun owners. There are those that go out on a weekend and outshoot their buddies and talk shit the whole time. These are (mostly) responsible and reasonable gun owners.

All of those examples are empowered in some way by their firearms. Now, this isn't to discount the group out there that aren't responsible or reasonable. They make up a small proportion of gun owners, though. The problem is that the narrative is to paint the majority like the minority, and this has a radicalizing effect. When I talk to fellow sportsmen about issues, you'd be amazed at how much we agree on a myriad of issues. But because of the narrative (which does come from both sides, mind you, the NRA is as much to blame for this as anyone) they are so concerned about "big government" they won't get behind these things.

There needs to be a reevaluation on the left over the gun issue. We need to stop letting New England and Californian Democrats run the show on these things.

**GMDino** · 03-27-2019, 09:19 AM

(03-27-2019, 09:08 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I understand what you're saying. This is an issue with our society, though, not guns themselves. This is where my liberalness comes through. There are some huge differences between the types of people empowered by firearms, though. There are those for whom a small, concealed firearm is used to provide them some comfort in case of something happening. They aren't going out looking for trouble, they have it in case trouble comes to them. These are responsible and reasonable gun owners. There are those that keep them in their home, out of the reach of little hands, to give them piece of mind in case someone breaks in and they need to protect their family. These are responsible and reasonable gun owners. There are folks that take pride in being able to feed themselves and/or others. These are responsible and reasonable gun owners. There are those that go out on a weekend and outshoot their buddies and talk shit the whole time. These are (mostly) responsible and reasonable gun owners.

All of those examples are empowered in some way by their firearms. Now, this isn't to discount the group out there that aren't responsible or reasonable. They make up a small proportion of gun owners, though. The problem is that the narrative is to paint the majority like the minority, and this has a radicalizing effect. When I talk to fellow sportsmen about issues, you'd be amazed at how much we agree on a myriad of issues. But because of the narrative (which does come from both sides, mind you, the NRA is as much to blame for this as anyone) they are so concerned about "big government" they won't get behind these things.

There needs to be a reevaluation on the left over the gun issue. We need to stop letting New England and Californian Democrats run the show on these things.

And I meant it as a comment on those in society that use guns that way, not that the guns are to blame.

I have no problems with guns and gun ownership other than I'll never understand the need for bigger and faster ones in the general public. But that's more because I don't use them than out of not wanting anyone else to have them.

I don't understand the need for a car that goes 150 mph either or enormous trucks with large amounts of HP when the guy drives to work in an office every day. Smirk

**Sociopathicsteelerfan** · 03-27-2019, 09:25 AM

(03-27-2019, 01:29 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Only if you are extremely insecure or paranoid to begin with.

Personally I have never felt the need of a gun to empower me. I can accomplish what I want without the need of a gun.

What an extremely jaundiced view of my post. Nowhere did I say that anyone needs the gun to be empowered. I said knowing how to use one is empowering. A guy who knows how to defend themselves is naturally more confident. An 80 year old woman who lives on her own would naturally feel safer and more confident if she had a firearm she knew how to use.

(03-27-2019, 05:46 AM)hollodero Wrote: That's not fair. It's not about actually doing something with the gun. It's more about being able to handle one if the necessity should arise. I live in a widely gun-free society and never held or shot a gun, I also don't feel the need to change that. But I understand the empowerment sentiment and can sympathize to an extent. It sure isn't a sign of extreme insecurity or paranoia and that's just not fair to say.

(Now don't get me wrong, I still believe the lenient US gun laws are borderline crazy. But that's not the point)

Fair isn't a concern in this type of argument, although I appreciate you pointing out the biased viewpoint. Knowledge about anything is empowering. Knowledge about something that could potentially save your life is even more so. I used the comparison of a physically fit guy who can defend himself. That kind of person is far safer to be around than an insecure guy. If you've ever been out to a bar, which I know you have, it's always the insecure a-holes who are trying to start fights, not the guy who is confident in his ability to handle himself.

(03-27-2019, 07:09 AM)GMDino Wrote: Well, that's kinda scary. That people can use a gun to make themselves "confident". I mean if someone has been threatened and beaten and feels they can't defend themself and they need a weapon to "empower" themself I can see that. It might make someone feel confident that they have "leveled" the playing field.

You say it's "kinda scary" and then acknowledge why being confident in the use of a firearm can, and is, empowering. No responsible firearms owner is yearning for the chance to use them, but they are confident in their ability to do so should the need arise.

Quote:But I've been an overweight guy my entire life, never fired a gun either, and I'm pretty self-confident and have pretty good self-esteem because I base that on what I can do and don't pay attention to people who say I'm worth less than them because I can't do other things. I don't worry that the next guy will be better than me (even if they are).

It's odd that you can proclaim something with such certainty and then admit you've never fired a gun in your life. How can you intelligently comment on something you've never experienced?

Quote:What SSF describes is what I find most wrong with the gun nuts: The guns define them and make them "better" than they would be without them.

Outstanding pejorative. Up to then we were actually having a reasonable discussion. In no way shape or form did I imply that firearms define me or anyone else. You inferred that on your own and it's rather apparent you did so based on your own personal prejudice.

Quote:I'm sure they are fun (I know guys who go to machine gun events and who love shooting any time) and I think in many cases they are even necessary. I don't want to take anyone's guns away from them. But I also don't think that someone should have one just to feel "empowered" in life. Especially when so many men (mostly) feel so empowered they use their guns to settle disputes rather than handling them any other way.

What you're describing in your last few sentences is not someone who is empowered, you're talking about someone who lives in fear. Zimmerman is a perfect example if I can play armchair psychologist. There is always going to be a minority who use a gun to feel powerful and will use that power over others. This is not the same thing as being empowered, at all. The first enables your insecurities and the second mitigates or erases them.

**GMDino** · 03-27-2019, 09:36 AM

(03-27-2019, 09:25 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You say it's "kinda scary" and then acknowledge why being confident in the use of a firearm can, and is, empowering. No responsible firearms owner is yearning for the chance to use them, but they are confident in their ability to do so should the need arise.

"kinda" is a qualifier. In some case (as I noted) it can/should be. However I explained other times where that feeling in someone is for the wrong reason.

(03-27-2019, 09:25 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's odd that you can proclaim something with such certainty and then admit you've never fired a gun in your life. How can you intelligently comment on something you've never experienced?

Because I have a brain? I realize I'm not the expert on absolutely everything that a few people around here are, but I can read and observe and (gasp) comment intelligently on a subject without claiming I am 100% right and an expert on the subject. I'm weird that way, I know.

(03-27-2019, 09:25 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Outstanding pejorative. Up to then we were actually having a reasonable discussion. In no way shape or form did I imply that firearms define me or anyone else. You inferred that on your own and it's rather apparent you did so based on your own personal prejudice.

So there are no "gun nuts"? I didn't say YOU were one I said YOUR description is one I attach to many of the gun nuts I see. For some people (gun nuts) it does define them. At least that is the way they present it in discussions and arguments about gun rights.

Take it easy sir...not everything is directed at you personally.

(03-27-2019, 09:25 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: What you're describing in your last few sentences is not someone who is empowered, you're talking about someone who lives in fear. Zimmerman is a perfect example if I can play armchair psychologist. There is always going to be a minority who use a gun to feel powerful and will use that power over others. This is not the same thing as being empowered, at all. The first enables your insecurities and the second mitigates or erases them.

You can play whatever you want. (But I'll need to see your degree before you can comment. Ninja

)

All seriousness aside some (see bold) think having a gun makes them "powerful"...they are "empowered". And that's a problem. Not with the guns, but with the people.

**Sociopathicsteelerfan** · 03-27-2019, 10:42 AM

For those confused by the word empower, here is the definition obviously being used by me in this thread;

make (someone) stronger and more confident, especially in controlling their life and claiming their rights.

"movements to empower the poor"

**GMDino** · 03-27-2019, 10:49 AM

(03-27-2019, 10:42 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: For those confused by the word empower, here is the definition obviously being used by me in this thread;

make (someone) stronger and more confident, especially in controlling their life and claiming their rights.

"movements to empower the poor"

Here is the full definition.

https://www.google.com/search?q=define+empower&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS523US523&oq=DEFINE+EMPOWER&aqs=chrome.0.0l6.2256j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Quote:em·pow·er

/əmˈpou(ə)r/
verb
verb: empower; 3rd person present: empowers; past tense: empowered; past participle: empowered; gerund or present participle: empowering

give (someone) the authority or power to do something.
"nobody was empowered to sign checks on her behalf"
synonyms:
authorize, license, entitle, permit, allow, sanction, warrant, commission, delegate, certify, accredit, qualify; More

antonyms:
forbid

make (someone) stronger and more confident, especially in controlling their life and claiming their rights.
"movements to empower the poor"
synonyms:
emancipate, unyoke, unfetter, unshackle, unchain, set free, give freedom to;
historicalenfranchise
"movements to empower the poor"
antonyms:
enslave

"give (someone) the authority or power to do something"

And I'm not even disagreeing with you that a gun empowers some people.

**Sociopathicsteelerfan** · 03-27-2019, 10:50 AM

(03-27-2019, 09:36 AM)GMDino Wrote: "kinda" is a qualifier. In some case (as I noted) it can/should be. However I explained other times where that feeling in someone is for the wrong reason.

Sure, but this does nothing to detract from my point.

Quote:Because I have a brain? I realize I'm not the expert on absolutely everything that a few people around here are, but I can read and observe and (gasp) comment intelligently on a subject without claiming I am 100% right and an expert on the subject. I'm weird that way, I know.

Sorry, no. You cannot comment on this intelligently if you've never actually done it. We're not talking about football, where a person can learn the nuances of the game and be an excellent coach despite never having played a down. We're talking about the impact learning how to responsibly use a firearm can have on a person. As you've never engaged in the activity you cannot express a definitive opinion on this without being called out for your ignorance. I do enjoy your not subtle at all personal digs though. Just enough plausible deniability. It's ok though, obvious bait is obvious.

Quote:So there are no "gun nuts"? I didn't say YOU were one I said YOUR description is one I attach to many of the gun nuts I see. For some people (gun nuts) it does define them. At least that is the way they present it in discussions and arguments about gun rights.

Take it easy sir...not everything is directed at you personally.

Yeah, when someone uses my "name" and in the same breath talks about a group in a negative fashion I tend to infer that I'm being talked about. Also, your track record in this regard rather easily lends itself to that conclusion. Of course there are extremists in the firearms community, as there are in every single group on the planet.

Quote:You can play whatever you want. (But I'll need to see your degree before you can comment. )

All seriousness aside some (see bold) think having a gun makes them "powerful"...they are "empowered". And that's a problem. Not with the guns, but with the people.

Again, empowered:

make (someone) stronger and more confident, especially in controlling their life and claiming their rights.

"movements to empower the poor"

We've had this discussion before, words mean things so let's please use them properly. Empowered and powerful are not the same thing, especially in the context of the point I am obviously making.

**Sociopathicsteelerfan** · 03-27-2019, 10:51 AM

(03-27-2019, 10:49 AM)GMDino Wrote: Here is the full definition.

https://www.google.com/search?q=define+empower&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS523US523&oq=DEFINE+EMPOWER&aqs=chrome.0.0l6.2256j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

"give (someone) the authority or power to do something"

And I'm not even disagreeing with you that a gun empowers some people.

Let's shut this foolish side plot down right now. When you use a word are you using every single possible definition of it when you do so?

***Nately120*** · 03-27-2019, 10:58 AM

I can see the allure of guns. Personally, I just went the route of owning an electric guitar to make me feel more awesome. But to each his own.

**GMDino** · 03-27-2019, 12:09 PM

(03-27-2019, 10:51 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Let's shut this foolish side plot down right now. When you use a word are you using every single possible definition of it when you do so?

What are you talking about? I'm agreeing that guns make people feel "empowered"...sometimes it makes people feel powerful too, to the point that they do bad things like gangs, Zimmerman, etc.

I understand it.

(03-27-2019, 10:58 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I can see the allure of guns. Personally, I just went the route of owning an electric guitar to make me feel more awesome. But to each his own.

Everyone has their thing, right?

My personal empowerment and confidence comes from within. It's just from how I was raised and my life experiences and I don't begrudge anyone that gets theirs from something they do.

fredtoast · 03-27-2019, 12:48 PM

My fear is that the type of people who feel empowered by a gun are the type of people who are more likely to do things like threaten a person for just asking what time it is.

Many incidents of road rage also involve people empowered by guns.

**Belsnickel** · 03-27-2019, 12:53 PM

(03-27-2019, 12:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My fear is that the type of people who feel empowered by a gun are the type of people who are more likely to do things like threaten a person for just asking what time it is.

The intersection on that Venn diagram would be very small.

(03-27-2019, 12:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Many incidents of road rage also involve people empowered by guns.

I'm more concerned about someone speeding or driving stupid as a result of road rage than I am them having a gun. Unsafe driving poses more of a risk to you than someone with a gun.

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