Trump agrees to meet with North Korea's Kim Jong Un, South Korea says

[GMDino]

(03-08-2018, 11:02 PM)michaelsean Wrote: But dirty due to his paranoia, and his need to get back at those who he believed wronged him.  I’m not excusing it, I’m just saying that’s different than not being capable of excelling in his duties.  I think most presidents are psychotic at least in a narcissistic way. I mean they believe they are the beat person to run the most powerful country.

To the bold....Eh, I can mostly agree with that idea.  I mean you have to have supreme self-confidence to even run for that office.  

But as to Nixon's need to get back at those he believed wronged him...aren't we seeing the exact same thing now?  Minus the diplomatic ability and experience?

[StLucieBengal]

(03-08-2018, 11:03 PM)Nately120 Wrote: We could really get off-track here, but I don't trust republicans to deregulate because past history has shown they deregulate and then bail out the companies who screw themselves over with their own greed.  Additionally, I find it abhorrently hypocritical to claim you love this country and respect the people who fought and died for it and then deregulate in manners which allow corporations to poison our actual land. I'm no environmentalist, I just find the neo con false patriotism to be an insultingly-thin facade.

Taxes?  Ehh, my party could (possibly) give us better tax breaks if we'd stop being a slave to government excesses that both popular political parties want.  Just because Trump promises the giant bills he racks up will be paid by "someone else" don't make it so.  Paying less taxes might actually mean doing without giant walls, endless wars, and a bunch of lefty stuff.

Judges?  I don't want right-wing judges getting all Biblical on things, but I haven't looked much into Trump's nominee honestly.

Enforcing immigration laws sound better when someone who hasn't hired illegals spearheads things.  Anyways, I don't care for Trump.

I don’t trust republicans either. Trump isn’t a republican really.

Personally I don’t care about the environment . I feel it’s way overblown. But whatever floats your boat.

Tax wise I wish we just went to a flat tax but hey. I will take what I can get and for my business the trump plan at least helps me. As for gov spending..... I would cut quite a bit back. Military included.

We are so far off track on immigration. For so many decades that anyone enforcing the laws is a welcome surprise. It’s long overdue .

[BFritz21]

How is this not bigger news and how is Trump not being praised by all, and how is he even being criticized by some?

Kim Jong Un is a complete psychopath, and the fact that he's talking about denuclearization, not just a freeze in nuclear activity (which would be HUGE in itself), is unbelievable.

What I also love about it is that we're not cutting the sanctions or anything on them just because he agreed to meet, so we're not just giving in, just in case they're bluffing.

I can't wait to see how Trump's haters and the Democrats spin this as a bad thing (already happening somewhat on here).

[Nebuchadnezzar]

This is a move by North Korea to get sanctions eased.

But it can be turned into a positive if the right words are spoken by Donald Trump although I don't think he is "Diplomatic" or "Polished" at all so that's out the window.

Crazier things have happened so you never know.

[BmorePat87]

(03-09-2018, 01:33 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: How is this not bigger news and how is Trump not being praised by all, and how is he even being criticized by some?

Because so far he has been a pretty awful President and people are holding praise until something is actually done

Quote:Kim Jong Un is a complete psychopath, and the fact that he's talking about denuclearization, not just a freeze in nuclear activity (which would be HUGE in itself), is unbelievable.  

he is and so was his father and his grandfather. The former both suggested they be open to these sort of things to ease sanctions and then went back on their words. This is something where the outcome needs to be observed before we begin cheering.

Quote:What I also love about it is that we're not cutting the sanctions or anything on them just because he agreed to meet, so we're not just giving in, just in case they're bluffing.  

It would be pretty dumb to cut sanctions prior to him agreeing to anything beyond talks. I'm glad they haven't done that.

Quote:I can't wait to see how Trump's haters and the Democrats spin this as a bad thing (already happening somewhat on here).

You're likely going to wait a while. No one is trashing him for being open to talks (not even somewhat on here)

[Dill]

(03-09-2018, 01:27 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I don’t trust republicans either.     Trump isn’t a republican really.  

Personally I don’t care about the environment . I feel it’s way overblown.  But whatever floats your boat.  

Push comes to shove, we could get by without it.

[Dill]

(03-09-2018, 01:33 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: How is this not bigger news and how is Trump not being praised by all, and how is he even being criticized by some?

Kim Jong Un is a complete psychopath, and the fact that he's talking about denuclearization, not just a freeze in nuclear activity (which would be HUGE in itself), is unbelievable.  

What I also love about it is that we're not cutting the sanctions or anything on them just because he agreed to meet, so we're not just giving in, just in case they're bluffing.  

I can't wait to see how Trump's haters and the Democrats spin this as a bad thing (already happening somewhat on here).

Well, this Trump hater certainly urges caution. I don't see any reason for praise at all yet, but some for concern.

Listen to what you just said--a complete psychopath is talking about denuclearization.  And you are already talking HUGE.  

As BPat noted, there is a pattern of Korean leaders reaching out to talk, agreeing to scale back something, to allow inspections, etc. to ease or postpone sanctions for a time, then reneg once their oil or whatever has been replenished. 

Further, in agreeing to meet face to face with Kim, Trump is granting him status, recognition, and prestige--especially in the eyes of his own people--that no other American president has ever given a North Korean leader. So far that's already a win for Kim. What will/can the U.S. gain? Remember, K J U now has the bomb and missiles that can reach the U.S.  He and his father starved their country to get that stuff. It guarantees there will be no U.S. invasion and it is a sword over South Korea. What are the chances that the impetuous, unfiltered and uninformed Trump will charm him out of those weapons?

Or put this another way, what are the chances that Kim charms Trump? NK has certainly worked up a psychological profile of the thin-skinned America president with impulse control problems, tendencies to risky behavior, little knowledge of diplomacy, anger towards his own national security team, and a weakness for flattery.

Finally, The White House is woefully unprepared to assess the situation he has so quickly accepted. We don't have a Korean ambassador. The guy originally vetted for the position stepped down in protest during Trump's state of the Union speech. Also the State department's special representative to North Korea just stepped down. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-27/trump-s-north-korea-point-man-to-quit-as-talks-seem-more-likely
And there is no assistant secretary for East Asian Affairs . State Department Chaos.

No one really knows what is going on inside NK. Maybe sanctions have worked and Kim will relinquish the weapons, open the country to inspections, in hopes of staving off internal collapse by sanction relief. HUGE then. But I think there is greater likelihood Trump is played, perhaps humiliated, and angered, which could trigger military action against someone as easily triggered as Trump.

ON the plus side I guess this is a presidential "first"; Trump makes history (as he reminds us).

[BFritz21]

(03-09-2018, 02:16 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Because so far he has been a pretty awful President and people are holding praise until something is actually done

How do you figure that he's been an awful President?

A few of his accomplishments:

At a recent White House press briefing, it took press secretary Sarah Sanders a full 2 1/2 minutes to list all of what Trump had overseen since his inauguration. Her list included:

• The unemployment rate is down to 4.1 percent.
• The stock market is at record highs.
• Congress "rolled back 22 regulations for every one new regulation."
• Trump pulled out of or started to renegotiate trade deals.
• He announced plans to withdraw from the Paris Climate Accord and broadly put a new emphasis on energy production over environmental protection.
• The administration approved the Keystone XL and Dakota Access pipelines.
• The Trump administration amped up immigration enforcement, and the travel ban executive order is now at least partially in effect after months of legal challenges; prototype wall segments have been constructed along the U.S.-Mexico border.
• "ISIS has lost nearly all of its territory and its most important strongholds in Iraq and Syria."
• Through executive action, Trump has eroded pieces of Obamacare.
• "We've reshaped the American judiciary for generations. Justice Gorsuch was confirmed to the Supreme Court, and 22 judges have been confirmed, including a record-setting 12 circuit judges."
  

And here's 81 more.

(03-09-2018, 02:16 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: he is and so was his father and his grandfather. The former both suggested they be open to these sort of things to ease sanctions and then went back on their words. This is something where the outcome needs to be observed before we begin cheering.

They're being ok with the US-South Korea military exercises and not conducting any further nuclear tests, which they have stopped (or said they'd stop) in the past, but now Trump is opening talks.  Between that and agreeing to meet, I'd say it's a pretty big victory.

No President has ever met with a North Korea leader, so that's a pretty big thing.

(03-09-2018, 02:16 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It would be pretty dumb to cut sanctions prior to him agreeing to anything beyond talks. I'm glad they haven't done that.

Which goes to show that Trump's about action and not just talk.

(03-09-2018, 02:16 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: You're likely going to wait a while. No one is trashing him for being open to talks (not even somewhat on here)

People have changed the conversation into things unrelated to the thread topic in order to have things to bash him about, so, yes, it is happening.

[Dill]

(03-09-2018, 03:15 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: How do you figure that he's been an awful President?

A few of his accomplishments:

Haven't we discussed these "accomplishments" before in this forum?

Many points on that list are simply carry over from Obama, like the stock market, war on ISIS and employment rate.
McConnel got Trump his Supreme Court nominee.

Previous presidents did not call "announcing plans" and pulling out of agreements "accomplishments." An accomplishment is something requiring planning and effort and policy construction by a president, not simply signing already prepared deals and executive orders.

E.g., few outside Trump's base think that canceling Obama EOs wherever he can, regardless of consequences, is racking up "accomplishment."

And did you notice some of the "accomplishments" on that list are simply things Trump plans to do?

He is an awful president because he doesn't do his job. He is a bad role model for children and makes the US look bad abroad. The White House is in constant disorder. He can't seem to lead his own intel/security institutions in an effort to protect the U.S. against Russian cyberattacks.  He lies daily while encouraging his followers to distrust news organizations which criticize him, with the result that many think some free-floating Trump hatred, and not Trump's own blunders, are the real source of Trump criticism.

[StLucieBengal]

(03-09-2018, 02:28 AM)Dill Wrote: Push comes to shove, we could get by without it.

The hysteria over it..... yes

[Belsnickel]

(03-08-2018, 10:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If Trump's legacy was nothing more than reuniting the Korean peninsula then it was be a Presidency well spent.

If he were to do that, then I would have praise for him. Unfortunately, that isn't likely. Reunification to DPRK looks like them ruling the entire peninsula. I do not think they will take anything less than that. The whole idea of this meeting is something that I am skeptical of. Not because of Trump, but because of Kim. Though I do think that this will be a meeting of two leaders that think the other is an irrational actor, which is concerning to me.

[GMDino]

(03-09-2018, 02:11 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: This is a move by North Korea to get sanctions eased.

But it can be turned into a positive if the right words are spoken by Donald Trump although I don't think he is "Diplomatic" or "Polished" at all so that's out the window.

Crazier things have happened so you never know.

This is where I stand.

Like the old yarn about putting enough monkeys in a room with enough typewriters and they could eventually write all the works of Shakespeare?

Put two egomaniac, borderline psychotic, revenge filled leaders in a room and maybe they can eventually come to peaceful terms?

[BmorePat87]

(03-09-2018, 03:15 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: How do you figure that he's been an awful President?

A few of his accomplishments:

At a recent White House press briefing, it took press secretary Sarah Sanders a full 2 1/2 minutes to list all of what Trump had overseen since his inauguration. Her list included:

• The unemployment rate is down to 4.1 percent.
• The stock market is at record highs.
  
  

These are all things that had been happening well before he took office. They're not a result of any of his policies.

Quote:Congress "rolled back 22 regulations for every one new regulation."

[*]

And the White House just quietly put out a report stating that these regulations that he is cutting actually generate more than they cost, so we can call that one a failure

Quote:Trump pulled out of or started to renegotiate trade deals.

[*]

I'm not sure how we can call this good or bad with no context of the specific trade deal.

Quote:He announced plans to withdraw from the Paris Climate Accord and broadly put a new emphasis on energy production over environmental protection.

[*]

Promoting out dated and harmful energy production over our safety is what I'd label as awful

Quote:[*]The administration approved the Keystone XL and Dakota Access pipelines.

[*][*]

and we've already had a spill...

Quote:The Trump administration amped up immigration enforcement, and the travel ban executive order is now at least partially in effect after months of legal challenges; prototype wall segments have been constructed along the U.S.-Mexico border.

[*][*]

I would suggest that targeting non criminals, enacting discriminatory policy, and trying to pay $20b for a wall aren't necessarily accomplishments.

Quote:"ISIS has lost nearly all of its territory and its most important strongholds in Iraq and Syria."

[*][*]

Again, something carried over from the last administration.

Quote:Through executive action, Trump has eroded pieces of Obamacare.

[*][*]

Which is good if you want more sick people

Quote:"We've reshaped the American judiciary for generations. Justice Gorsuch was confirmed to the Supreme Court, and 22 judges have been confirmed, including a record-setting 12 circuit judges."

[*][*]

The fact that your party controls the Senate and have confirmed your nominations doesn't make you a good President.

Quote:They're being ok with the US-South Korea military exercises and not conducting any further nuclear tests, which they have stopped (or said they'd stop) in the past, but now Trump is opening talks.  Between that and agreeing to meet, I'd say it's a pretty big victory.


No President has ever met with a North Korea leader, so that's a pretty big thing.

[*][*]

North Korea has been trying to get a President to meet with them for decades. The whole point of this is to explain that there's no success or accomplishment until we see what happens. Presidents in the past have refused to meet with them because there has been no sincerity in their promises to stop their nuclear program. Talks occurring are only inherently a big victory for N Korea. Whether or not it can be called a victory for the US remains to be seen.

Quote:Which goes to show that Trump's about action and not just talk.

[*][*]

I'd disagree. At the heart of this, it is all talk. Action is what occurs after it. My main criticism with Trump is that his Presidency has been all talk and no action. He has one major legislative victory and the rest of what he tries to rest his laurels on is just signing executive orders that order departments to talk about doing things (but not doing them) or reverse Obama policy for the sake of reversing his policy.

Combine that with spending 1 out of every 4 days at a golf course, booking half his daily schedule to be used to watch TV, and wasting money on trips to his resorts.

Quote:People have changed the conversation into things unrelated to the thread topic in order to have things to bash him about, so, yes, it is happening.

[*][*]


So people aren't finding a way to make THIS a bad thing, they're talking about other bad things

[GMDino]

(03-09-2018, 09:59 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: North Korea has been trying to get a President to meet with them for decades. The whole point of this is to explain that there's no success or accomplishment until we see what happens. Presidents in the past have refused to meet with them because there has been no sincerity in their promises to stop their nuclear program. Talks occurring are only inherently a big victory for N Korea. Whether or not it can be called a victory for the US remains to be seen.

I just wanted to touch on this one point:

Trump has been shown over his entire "career" to be easily swayed by compliments.  NK has already shown a penchant for playing him to get a reaction.  Trump probably thinks that he and he alone has the brains to meet with Kim Jung Un and settle this once and for all...so just like other moves he's made without getting advice from people who are ACTUALLY smarter than him and have ACTUAL experience he agrees to this more because it feeds his ego/self image than for any other reason.

[GMDino]

Another thought:  Why did the POTUS verify on Twitter instead of making the announcement himself?

Just odd given his penchant for self promotion.

[masterpanthera_t]

There's some thought on the part of US experts (sorry I don't remember the position/title/job description) on North Korea, that they are 90% or more complete in their ability to create a nuclear bomb. Based on that, there's skepticism that this move by KJU is simply a stalling tactic to build time until they complete the remaining 10% or less, and have a bomb. Because, North Korea is darker than a 100 foot deep cave, this 90% number is not certain, but the skepticism is, why would KJU want to have talks about denuclearization when he's so close to achieving his nuclear objectives? None of the carrots or sticks that many governments have tried against NK have had any significant impact on the tyrannical Kim family over the last 50 years. I will grant that the sanctions levied in the last year or so, are probably the most crippling especially considering that China seems to have somewhat supported them both in agreeing to the levying and to the execution by stopping their own trade with NK to some extent, but still it's hard to see why at this stage KJU would be willing to just say "Ok, I'm this close, but I'll just disarm everything and let you take me back to scratch, and I promise I will play your dancing bear". Regardless, if any foreign gov't should get credit (along with the US), it should be the Chinese (and it pains me to write that sentence as I hold them in about the same low level of regard as I do the autocratic Russian gov't).

[Dill]

(03-09-2018, 10:08 AM)GMDino Wrote: I just wanted to touch on this one point:

Trump has been shown over his entire "career" to be easily swayed by compliments.  NK has already shown a penchant for playing him to get a reaction.  Trump probably thinks that he and he alone has the brains to meet with Kim Jung Un and settle this once and for all...so just like other moves he's made without getting advice from people who are ACTUALLY smarter than him and have ACTUAL experience he agrees to this more because it feeds his ego/self image than for any other reason.

This is like throwing a hail mary in the first quarter.

Imagine a defense that has figured out a narcisstic, inexperienced quarterback's weaknesses and instead of the usual smack about his mother, the linebackers start praising his passing ability and hoping out loud that he doesn't throw deep cuz nobody does it better. The QB calls an audible at the line of scrimmage. The offensive linemen and receivers groan. They know what's about to happen but are powerless to stop it. That's how the US foreign policy establishment feels right now.

[*bfine32*]

(03-09-2018, 03:15 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: How do you figure that he's been an awful President?

A few of his accomplishments:

At a recent White House press briefing, it took press secretary Sarah Sanders a full 2 1/2 minutes to list all of what Trump had overseen since his inauguration. Her list included:

• The unemployment rate is down to 4.1 percent.
• The stock market is at record highs.
• Congress "rolled back 22 regulations for every one new regulation."
• Trump pulled out of or started to renegotiate trade deals.
• He announced plans to withdraw from the Paris Climate Accord and broadly put a new emphasis on energy production over environmental protection.
• The administration approved the Keystone XL and Dakota Access pipelines.
• The Trump administration amped up immigration enforcement, and the travel ban executive order is now at least partially in effect after months of legal challenges; prototype wall segments have been constructed along the U.S.-Mexico border.
• "ISIS has lost nearly all of its territory and its most important strongholds in Iraq and Syria."
• Through executive action, Trump has eroded pieces of Obamacare.
• "We've reshaped the American judiciary for generations. Justice Gorsuch was confirmed to the Supreme Court, and 22 judges have been confirmed, including a record-setting 12 circuit judges."
  

And here's 81 more.




They're being ok with the US-South Korea military exercises and not conducting any further nuclear tests, which they have stopped (or said they'd stop) in the past, but now Trump is opening talks.  Between that and agreeing to meet, I'd say it's a pretty big victory.

No President has ever met with a North Korea leader, so that's a pretty big thing.


Which goes to show that Trump's about action and not just talk.



People have changed the conversation into things unrelated to the thread topic in order to have things to bash him about, so, yes, it is happening.

When it comes right down to it; POTUS is really nothing more than a figure head. Folks will either point to his strengths or weaknesses depending on how they feel about him as a person.

For instance I had conservative friends that voted Democrat for the first times in their lives in 2008 and 2012 and their were many that voted for Trump this past election cycle that doesn't know the difference between liberal or conservative.

All those great things you list are mostly to the GOP holding the majority Congress for some time. Now if we can just get them to pass a immigration reform bill that includes tougher borders and pathway to citizenship and perhaps an amendment to the CRA; we'll be G2G.

Something struck me the other day: If we pass a comprehensive immigration policy with GOP legislature, executive, judicial controlled government. would that mean the parties "switched" again?

[Dill]

(03-09-2018, 03:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: When it comes right down to it; POTUS is really nothing more than a figure head. Folks will either point to his strengths or weaknesses depending on how they feel about him as a person.

For a lot of people, this is still not true.

There are still many who assess what a president does and how he does it, regardless of how they feel about him as a person.
And they assess both strengths and weaknesses.

E.g., many, like me, dislike Nixon the person, but respect some of his foreign and domestic policy accomplishments.  I like Ford as a person, but don't really see any "strengths" in his presidency beyond holding down the fort without burning it down.

Sometimes, though, "the person" can be a factor, if that person's signature is bad judgment in public and private life. A person who seems self involved and ignorant of how government actually works, then many will "feel" he is a bad choice for the country, but they would not be basing their judgment on "how they feel," but upon the actual behavior, limitations, qualities (or lack thereof) of that individual.

No POTUS is "nothing more than a figure head." As individuals they always have the greatest single effect on foreign and domestic policy.  A decision to remain in Vietnam or to open the door to China, or to sign a bill lowering taxes on the 1%, or to broker an Iran deal (or to scrap it), has immense effect on the economy and security of the U.S.  Skill, competence, knowledge, judgment--all that matters more in a US president than for any other office on the planet.

[Dill]

(03-08-2018, 10:10 PM)GMDino Wrote: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/03/08/trump-major-announcement-coming-north-korea/408781002/

The adults are regaining control of the room.   An update:

White House puts an asterisk on Trump, Kim Jong Un meeting
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/09/politics/north-korea-meeting-trump-conditions/index.html

But Sanders on Friday repeatedly claimed that North Korea had "promised" to denuclearize and said Pyongyang would need to take "concrete and verifiable actions" towards that aim for Trump and Kim to meet.
"The President will not have the meeting without have concrete steps or seeing concrete actions taken by North Korea," she said. Sanders' comments appeared to realign the White House's position with the one senior administration officials had laid out in the days before Trump stunned the world by agreeing to meet face-to-face with Kim.

I wonder if we'll soon be hearing each side accuse the other of sabotaging the talks by setting new conditions?

If Kim assents to the pre-conditions, that will indeed be newsworthy. And if Kim agrees, it will mean an agreement with the US and the international community is more important than saving face.