Trump attacks American Intel

[jj22]

Go figure.

But as he tells them they need to go back to school, he makes a fool out of himself. Anyone following?

This coming from the American president is inexcusable on so many levels.

Are his supporters still claiming "America first" or have they realized how ridiculous that sounds given what all we know about Trump that they accept now?

[GMDino]

This is nothing new to Trump.  Anyone who disagrees with what he "knows" is wrong.  Period.  

In his boardroom he could throw his weight around and not be told no.  Now most of the country laughs at him when he says it.

Sadly still some believe him.

[hollodero]

(01-30-2019, 03:02 PM)jj22 Wrote: This coming from the American president is inexcusable on so many levels.

Yes, it absolutely is.

And I agree, any second opinion would be a bit sad.

[*michaelsean*]

Gotta give him credit. These are his own people he’s ripping

[HarleyDog]

Not defending Trump, but since JFK, I’ve never trusted FBI or CIA. our intelligence agencies have been subpar.

[Dill]

(01-30-2019, 08:52 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Not defending Trump, but since JFK, I’ve never trusted FBI or CIA. our intelligence agencies have been subpar.

???  Why Kennedy?  

Always subpar over this time? No peaks and valleys. How do ours stack up in relation to other coountries' over the last 30 years?

[HarleyDog]

(01-30-2019, 09:54 PM)Dill Wrote: ???  Why Kennedy?  

Always subpar over this time? No peaks and valleys. How do ours stack up in relation to other coountries' over the last 30 years?

Although you will poke at my reasoning, I’ll explain why. Once I saw the movie JFK directed by Oliver Stone, it raised some questions. Then when you hear in modern times of wire tappings on innocent citizens and the political involvement, there’s a lot to distrust.

[Benton]

(01-30-2019, 10:23 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Although you will poke at my reasoning, I’ll explain why. Once I saw the movie JFK directed by Oliver Stone, it raised some questions. Then when you hear in modern times of wire tappings on innocent citizens and the political involvement, there’s a lot to distrust.

I'll be one of the first to criticize intelligence gathering on US citizens. That was one of my biggest issues in the years immediately following 9/11. Warantless wire taps and the like are violations and it's frustrating that people just shrug it off and fall in line with whatever their respective party is pushing.

On the other hand, over the last 30ish years, our international intelligence gathering has proven to be one of the most consistent, expansive and reliable there is. Even the biggest attack on US soil since Pearl Harbor (9/11) was something the intelligence agencies knew and warned the administration about. It's a failure by our elected leaders to utilize the information theyre given, and unfortunately that's something that's been consistent from multiple administrations.

[Dill]

(01-30-2019, 10:23 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Although you will poke at my reasoning, I’ll explain why. Once I saw the movie JFK directed by Oliver Stone, it raised some questions. Then when you hear in modern times of wire tappings on innocent citizens and the political involvement, there’s a lot to distrust.

I would not trust Stone very far in this matter. Good director; bad historian.
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2011/apr/28/jfk-oliver-stone-john-f-kennedy

But in evaluating intel services, we ought to consider what their function or job is, and how well they are doing that.  As Benton just noted, ours have in fact done a pretty good job over the last three decades.

Our system is designed to make ILLEGAL wiretapping difficult, but defending the US by gathering intel is bound to require some wiretapping. E.g., Russian diplomats, spies and other operatives are always on the look out for witting and unwitting US assets.  And because of this such operatives are always surveilled by our FBI and CIA. If, in their pursuit of such assets, they utilize electronic communications, then U.S. citizens will also be surveilled, as happened to Flynn, Papadapoulos, Trump jr, and others implicated in the current special counsel investigation.

That makes me feel more secure than distrustful.

The kind of political involvement that bothers me occurs when presidents try to silence or cook intel, or intimidate investigators gathering intel. I am very skeptical of conspiracy theories assuming coordinated action of hundreds of civil servants and military personnel to do things like take down the twin towers and make it look like Al Qaeda did it, or to conduct a "witch hunt" to take Trump down.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-30-2019, 10:23 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Although you will poke at my reasoning, I’ll explain why. Once I saw the movie JFK directed by Oliver Stone, it raised some questions. Then when you hear in modern times of wire tappings on innocent citizens and the political involvement, there’s a lot to distrust.

I'd be super curious to know who the Donald Sutherland character was supposed to be.  It's been a long time so I can't remember specifics, but he seemed a very convenient person to fill in all the holes in the theory.  

[fredtoast]

(01-30-2019, 08:52 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Not defending Trump, but since JFK, I’ve never trusted FBI or CIA. our intelligence agencies have been subpar.

Who do you trust?

[GMDino]

I can't help but wonder how so many voters still look at DJT and think that he does indeed know more than the generals, the CIA, the FBI and absolutely everyone that disagrees with him.

then I remember the quote I read that said "Donald Trump is the poor man's version of a rich man" and it makes a lot of sense.

[fredtoast]

(01-30-2019, 08:42 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Gotta give him credit. These are his own people he’s ripping

Credit for what?

Here is the problem.  Donald knows that his base will believe anything he says just because he tells them what they want to hear.  His famous comment about shooting someone in the middle of the street is very true.  

The FBI could find evidence against Trump, convict him in court, and present the evidence to the public but Trump supporters would not care because the FBI is crooked, the courts are crooked, and the media presenting them with info is crooked.  That is how badly people desire to be told what they want to believe.

Now his base will do the same thing with foreign intelligence.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-31-2019, 10:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Credit for what?

Here is the problem.  Donald knows that his base will believe anything he says just because he tells them what they want to hear.  His famous comment about shooting someone in the middle of the street is very true.  

The FBI could find evidence against Trump, convict him in court, and present the evidence to the public but Trump supporters would not care because the FBI is crooked, the courts are crooked, and the media presenting them with info is crooked.  That is how badly people desire to be told what they want to believe.

Now his base will do the same thing with foreign intelligence.

Not real credit.  The credit you give people who do stupid things because they are willing to go all in.  In this instance, now even the people he picked himself are stupid.

[*bfine32*]

This should be grounds for censure. Hopefully with the Dem controlled house something will finally be done about his often mindless tweeting. The current Admin has done some good things, but tweets such as this distract from any good.

[Au165]

(01-31-2019, 10:28 AM)bfine32 Wrote: This should be grounds for censure. Hopefully with the Dem controlled house something will finally be done about his often mindless tweeting. The current Admin has done some good things, but tweets such as this distract from any good.

I called you out for not pointing out Trumps bad tweets enough the other day, so I must applaud you when you do the non partisan thing and demand accountability. 

[GMDino]

(01-31-2019, 10:28 AM)bfine32 Wrote: This should be grounds for censure. Hopefully with the Dem controlled house something will finally be done about his often mindless tweeting. The current Admin has done some good things, but tweets such as this distract from any good.

Wow.

Finally got so bad even bfine doesn't like it!

[hollodero]

(01-31-2019, 10:40 AM)GMDino Wrote: Wow.

Finally got so bad even bfine doesn't like it!

To be fair, there's quite a lot of these things. I read "censure" as a proposal again and again.

[*bfine32*]

(01-31-2019, 10:33 AM)Au165 Wrote: I called you out for not pointing out Trumps bad tweets enough the other day, so I must applaud you when you do the non partisan thing and demand accountability. 

(01-31-2019, 10:40 AM)GMDino Wrote: Wow.

Finally got so bad even bfine doesn't like it!

(01-31-2019, 11:05 AM)hollodero Wrote: To be fair, there's quite a lot of these things. I read "censure" as a proposal again and again.

I have called for censure before. Especially some of his comments concerning the media and judicial system. I think the issue is like the bright-eyed DA we tend to want to "overcharge" with talk of impeachment and resignation. 

IMO, they failed to nip it in the bud and now both sides have to traverse the slippery slope they let manifest itself

[*michaelsean*]

Ya'll could at least start off your posts with, "At the risk of sounding patronizing...".