Trump booed at World Series

[Dill]

(10-29-2019, 10:21 AM)Goalpost Wrote: Gee  I'm convinced.  Where is a Covington kid that I can punch in the face.

Start with this one.

[Dill]

(10-29-2019, 02:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yep.

Reminds me of WWII.  People were complaining about the Nazis killing people but then we started killing Nazi's.

Impossible for me to see any difference at that point.  Guess we were just as bad as the Nazis.

Both sides did it.  Double think leads to double standards and hypocrisy--

if you completely separate actions from intentions/goals/standards.

[Dill]

(10-29-2019, 05:21 AM)hollodero Wrote: As you said, it's this type of shit. One can either be appalled by said shit or engage in the same shit oneself. One cannot credibly do both really.
Engaging in such behaviour amounts to losing some (not all, there are still nuances) morale high ground to me as well and no one called me a trumpet yet.

It would have been fairly sufficient to just boo him.

Speaking of "nuances."

Do you think the chants of "lock him up" were all direct expressions of a desired outcome, as were chants of "lock her up" at Trump rallies?

Probably some would like to see Trump locked up. But is it possible that the intent of many could have been ironic--the real subtext being "how does it feel now that the shoe is on the other foot?"  Or "how does it make YOU feel?"

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-28-2019, 09:06 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As to Trump: He reaps what he sows. I can forgive the common folks acting in such a manner; as he has done numerous things beneath the office of POTUS. I don't agree with it; as I think the position (if not the man) deserves a degree of respect. But yeah, the anti-Trumps surrendered any morale high ground quite a while back.

As to the hate: I find it more disturbing when folks simply trying to do their jobs are slurred simply because they work(ed) for Trump. For instance Khamala refusing to attend the event this past weekend because someone she disagreed with was asked to speak; is petty.

Supposedly, according to the Corrupt Media, the Ukraine call “concerned” today’s Never Trumper witness. Was he on the same call that I was? Can’t be possible! Please ask him to read the Transcript of the call. Witch Hunt!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 29, 2019

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/10/29/us/politics/who-is-alexander-vindman.amp.html

Update: After our Commander in Chief personally attacked an Army officer for not only doing his job, but his sworn duty, Trump’s surrogates take his call to arms to attack LTC Vindman’s integrity and even his patriotism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-and-his-allies-attack-purple-heart-recipient-to-defend-against-impeachment/2019/10/29/f54f3430-fa61-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html

I laugh at the idea that some suggest Trump supports veterans. His only concern for vets is at a prop for himself.

Trump is the Lance Armstrong of presidents.

[ballsofsteel]

Trump is very guarded about who has access to him in person, common citizens that is. No press conferences. When he has a supposedly press conference, it is populated by pro Trump press. TV interviews are 95% Faux News. Copter talk with hand picked questionnaires. His rallies. All controlled. He couldn't control the fans at the game. There are more people in this country who dislike Trump than like him. Maybe alot of them don't go on message boards to vent like we can here. That was their chance to let Trump know
everyone doesn't think he the greatest potus since Lincoln.
PS: Republicans are still neutered.

[Dill]

(10-29-2019, 11:01 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I have mixed feelings on the lock him up chant. I think that kind of rhetoric is dangerous because, taken to its extreme, you are discussing jailing your political opponents, which is insanely un-American and anti-democracy (as it is when Trump does it). Trump hasn't been convicted of anything yet, even if there is more and more evidence every day, so demanding he be put in jail is unpalatable at best. With that said, I do see the irony that he has so openly advocated for HIS political opponents to be thrown in jail, despite investigations showing that there is not enough evidence to justify prison time (whether you find that justification or not, it is what it is). 

There's a fair bit of schadenfreude in seeing a man so vehement about wanting to throw his political opponents in jail (whether that be Hillary, Joe/Hunter Biden or even Obama) actually end up on the wrong side of an investigation that could, realistically, result in him being imprisoned. Kind of a "hoisted by your petard" moment, which was undeniably ironic and comical.

I don't think coming to this conclusion is necessarily partisan although, as I said above, it is difficult to evaluate your own biases in such a partisan environment.

I rather agree with you, C-Dawg. Likely SOME people chanting "lock him up" were exhibiting the same base motivations as those which sweep through supporters at every Trump rally, but your recognition of the irony implicit in directing this chant towards Trump probably describes the motivation of many or most of those at the game.

I.e., the chanters aren't simply a mirror-image of Trump supporters who really want to lock up someone they have been coached to hate.  In this case, the POINT was to "hoist Trump on his own petard," as you put it; give him a taste of his own medicine. Let the bully see what it feels like when what goes around comes around.

Would not surprise me at all if a lot/most of those people chanting were chanting because they actually DON'T LIKE lynch-mob style chants, and they want to let Trump know it by putting him in the victim's seat.


And I agree your conclusion is not "partisan."  It is just a more nuanced kind of sorting, which includes important contextual variables.

[fredtoast]

I though baseball fans were supposed to be mostly old white guys.

Wonder if Trump will attend any NBA games or MLS matches.

[Dill]

(10-28-2019, 09:06 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As to Trump: He reaps what he sows. I can forgive the common folks acting in such a manner; as he has done numerous things beneath the office of POTUS. I don't agree with it; as I think the position (if not the man) deserves a degree of respect. But yeah, the anti-Trumps surrendered any morale high ground quite a while back.

As to the hate: I find it more disturbing when folks simply trying to do their jobs are slurred simply because they work(ed) for Trump. For instance Khamala refusing to attend the event this past weekend because someone she disagreed with was asked to speak; is petty.

I really don't see where people who continue to hold Trump to higher standards of decency and competence have thereby "lost any moral high ground."

You are a bit anti-Trump in this post. Have you surrendered any moral ground because of that?  I don't think so.

But you could be when you criticize the criticizers, or otherwise blur the difference between those who take a stand for decency and those who attack it.

[Arturo Bandini]

Best internet comment : Finally a dodger made it to the world series.

[*Nately120*]

It's the duty of the American people to make their feelings of the president known...even after Obama leaves the WH. Trump chose to become a public servant and the public is a fickle bastard that doesn't like anyone. Get serving.

And hey, if you don't buy that then anyone who boos Trump can say they don't like guys who brag about being sex offenders. It's just too easy.

[BmorePat87]

(10-29-2019, 05:17 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1189167309455331328?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Don’t know how to embed tweets, but it’s a damn shame someone can’t do their job without Trump attacking their integrity and disparaging their reputation.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/10/29/us/politics/who-is-alexander-vindman.amp.html

Hit the arrow on the tweet, click embed tweet, copy the code, paste the code, remove the last line that says script, post

Supposedly, according to the Corrupt Media, the Ukraine call “concerned” today’s Never Trumper witness. Was he on the same call that I was? Can’t be possible! Please ask him to read the Transcript of the call. Witch Hunt!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 29, 2019

 

[NATI BENGALS]

(10-29-2019, 07:47 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It's the duty of the American people to make their feelings of the president known...even after Obama leaves the WH.  Trump chose to become a public servant and the public is a fickle bastard that doesn't like anyone.  Get serving.

And hey, if you don't buy that then anyone who boos Trump can say they don't like guys who brag about being sex offenders.  It's just too easy.

Dude.. Holy shit bro. Why are you just projecting on me like that?

Don't you dare talk about sex offenders homie. Two words Bill Clinton. Automatically means any elected leader from the opposite party can be a mega sexual deviant and I don't give a shit. Per GOP rule 15b. Learn to read...

I was booing trump for running a sham charity and sham college ripping people off..

[hollodero]

(10-29-2019, 01:27 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: If you're comparing the rally goers and the Nats fans, then absolutely that's a comparison that can be made. I just think the criticism is lobbed at Trump not the rally masses, so I'm not sure what hypocrisy there really is.

(10-29-2019, 04:03 PM)Dill Wrote: Speaking of "nuances."

Do you think the chants of "lock him up" were all direct expressions of a desired outcome, as were chants of "lock her up" at Trump rallies?

Probably some would like to see Trump locked up. But is it possible that the intent of many could have been ironic--the real subtext being "how does it feel now that the shoe is on the other foot?"  Or "how does it make YOU feel?"

So, Dill's answer is mine to the Baltimorian question. Those at baseball clearly referenced, or say mimicked, the rally goers, so there's the connection to them and their behaviour.

And it's possibly more irony (or mockery) than anything - as I said there are nuances, and I do not equate the two groups 1:1 - but in a certain context that does not matter too much. It's not just about what it is with all nuances - it's also about how it's percieved. Every person on the fence of leaving Trump becaue of his and his supporter's conduct now has a reason to reiterate that they are all the same left or right... and it sure might look like that to such a person, does it not?

Both sides sport a mob demanding jailtime for a political opponent. Of course one of the nuances would probably be that those who demand it for Trump have more basis in fact for that. Also he started it, he sure deserved a taste of his own medicine, I do not dispute all that. But it's still behaviour that is spooky, and how that can not be seen as losing some moral highground is baffling to me. I just can repeat it, one can either be appalled by a certain behaviour (like participating in a "lock her up" chant) or display the same behaviour at the next best chance - but with doing the latter, the first goes out of the window. And a similar logic applies for denouncing the rally goers for their chants and at the same time cheering for the baseball chanters. @hypocrisy question, that is the hypocrisy.

[BakertheBeast]

(10-29-2019, 06:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I though baseball fans were supposed to be mostly old white guys.

Wonder if Trump will attend any NBA games or MLS matches.

I venture to say you won't see Trump at any more public events or outings that are not populated completely with his Lemmings. It will be interesting to see if he comes up with a new chant at his next rally.

[fredtoast]

(10-30-2019, 03:41 AM)hollodero Wrote: how that can not be seen as losing some moral highground is baffling to me. I just can repeat it, one can either be appalled by a certain behaviour (like participating in a "lock her up" chant) or display the same behaviour at the next best chance - but with doing the latter, the first goes out of the window. And a similar logic applies for denouncing the rally goers for their chants and at the same time cheering for the baseball chanters. @hypocrisy question, that is the hypocrisy.

If someone shoots at you do you lose any moral high ground for shooting back?

Trump started all this shit.  People don't have to just sit back and take it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-30-2019, 03:41 AM)hollodero Wrote: So, Dill's answer is mine to the Baltimorian question. Those at baseball clearly referenced, or say mimicked, the rally goers, so there's the connection to them and their behaviour.

And it's possibly more irony (or mockery) than anything - as I said there are nuances, and I do not equate the two groups 1:1 - but in a certain context that does not matter too much. It's not just about what it is with all nuances - it's also about how it's percieved. Every person on the fence of leaving Trump becaue of his and his supporter's conduct now has a reason to reiterate that they are all the same left or right... and it sure might look like that to such a person, does it not?

Both sides sport a mob demanding jailtime for a political opponent. Of course one of the nuances would probably be that those who demand it for Trump have more basis in fact for that. Also he started it, he sure deserved a taste of his own medicine, I do not dispute all that. But it's still behaviour that is spooky, and how that can not be seen as losing some moral highground is baffling to me. I just can repeat it, one can either be appalled by a certain behaviour (like participating in a "lock her up" chant) or display the same behaviour at the next best chance - but with doing the latter, the first goes out of the window. And a similar logic applies for denouncing the rally goers for their chants and at the same time cheering for the baseball chanters. @hypocrisy question, that is the hypocrisy.

This has been a very enlightening thread.  As you and Bel, two of our most level headed posters, have pointed out there is a clear streak of hypocrisy on display here.  The interesting part comes from the immense level of denial of this fact or the bald statement of "it's ok when we do it because they started it".  The more left leaning posters here have all morphed into GA9 or TommyC but have zero comprehension of this fact.  It really is fascinating how much Trump provokes people to act exactly like him.

But it's ok because he started it. 

[GMDino]

(10-30-2019, 11:00 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This has been a very enlightening thread.  As you and Bel, two of our most level headed posters, have pointed out there is a clear streak of hypocrisy on display here.  The interesting part comes from the immense level of denial of this fact or the bald statement of "it's ok when we do it because they started it".  The more left leaning posters here have all morphed into GA9 or TommyC but have zero comprehension of this fact.  It really is fascinating how much Trump provokes people to act exactly like him.

But it's ok because he started it. 

Ever stand up to a bully?  Or did you not want to "act like him" because "he started it:?  

"denial"

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-28-2019, 09:06 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As to Trump: He reaps what he sows. I can forgive the common folks acting in such a manner; as he has done numerous things beneath the office of POTUS. I don't agree with it; as I think the position (if not the man) deserves a degree of respect. But yeah, the anti-Trumps surrendered any morale high ground quite a while back.

As to the hate: I find it more disturbing when folks simply trying to do their jobs are slurred simply because they work(ed) for Trump. For instance Khamala refusing to attend the event this past weekend because someone she disagreed with was asked to speak; is petty.

Never Trumper Republican John Bellinger, represents Never Trumper Diplomat Bill Taylor (who I don’t know), in testimony before Congress! Do Nothing Democrats allow Republicans Zero Representation, Zero due process, and Zero Transparency....

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 23, 2019

The Lance Armstrong of US presidents, Donald Trump, slurred another veteran who works on behalf of Trump for simply doing his job.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/27/politics/bill-taylor-vietnam-bob-seitz-robert-st-onge/index.html

For those keeping track at home, Republican politicians have attacked the integrity of two combat veterans to protect a draft dodger with fake bone spurs in the span of one week for doing their duty of protecting the national security interests of the United States above party politics.

We have entered the second Cold War and Putin is winning.

[hollodero]

(10-30-2019, 10:04 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If someone shoots at you do you lose any moral high ground for shooting back?

Trump started all this shit.  People don't have to just sit back and take it.

This is quite an inaccurate equivalency. This is not about an act of self-defense and the baseball chanters were not directly under attack to begin with. Also it does nothing to resolve or stop the attacks. It serves no purpose in that regard.

Also, again, I do not draw a moral equivalency between the Trump rally chanters and the baseball chanters. Sure one instance can be painted as "worse" and I'd agree with that. And also as I said, Trump sure had it coming. But for the reasons stated, I remain critical of "lock him up" chants, because I am critical of "lock xyz up" chants to begin with and think this mob rule approach to justice is to be refused under any circumstances. And until that incident, I thought the "left" seemed to agree with that. 

"...but the other one did it first, or else I would NEVER have done that, because in principle I'm actually better than that" is a atrange argument to make. There's hypocrisy in it, as is in finding the one instance reprehensible and the other similar instance a perfectly fine response.

[hollodero]

(10-30-2019, 11:07 AM)GMDino Wrote: Ever stand up to a bully?  Or did you not want to "act like him" because "he started it:?  

"denial"

Standing up to a bully is not the same as using the same bullying tactics. One stands up to a bully by being better, not by resoponding in his kind.