Trump, lets move on

[Leon]

(07-22-2022, 09:15 PM)Lucidus Wrote: There is no substantial proof that the Jesus character represented in the Bible actually existed -- divine or not. It's much more likely that "Jesus" was an amalgamation of the outspoken itinerant rabbis at that time. 


Which is why I asked for clarification.


These aren't retellings of the time, they are literal guidelines / instructions:

Leviticus 25:44-46
44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. 45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

Exodus 21:20-21
20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

Exodus 21:2
2 When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing.

Exodus 21
21:1 “Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

It's all undeniably disgusting. There is no context that matters when it comes to owning other human beings as property.

what a load of misinformation. that has nothing to do with God or the bible. thats men doing bad things and nothing else. God wasnt for slavery and Jesus wasn't either. just cause men put that stuff in Gods book is just an example of how sinful and broken humans are. and theres 100% proof Jesus was the real person in the Bible. he walked the earth. he perfomed miracle and he was murdered for his teachings. he also rose from the tomb and witnesses saw it. theres a ton of proof. you just dont want to admit it cause you would value your sin over salvation.

[GMDino]

(07-24-2022, 01:04 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: what a load of misinformation. that has nothing to do with God or the bible. thats men doing bad things and nothing else. God wasnt for slavery and Jesus wasn't either. just cause men put that stuff in Gods book is just an example of how sinful and broken humans are. and theres 100% proof Jesus was the real person in the Bible. he walked the earth. he perfomed miracle and he was murdered for his teachings. he also rose from the tomb and witnesses saw it. theres a ton of proof. you just dont want to admit it cause you would value your sin over salvation.

So you weren't taught that the Bible was God's word?

That He spoke through the authors and editors?

And if you don't believe that...how do you know God's words, wants or what He wants us to do?

You can't say it is because Jesus told us because you are still relying on the words written by "men" who "put stuff in God's book".

It doesn't work that way.  Or it shouldn't, but I'm old enough to recognize a Cafeteria Christian.

[samhain]

(07-21-2022, 10:56 AM)Stewy Wrote: Because:

Until there is clearly someone else, there's Trump, past, present and future.

However, Trumps base is eroding.  Reading between the line, it is clear that the leaders of the Repub's don't want him and want him to go away.  A large number of Non-elected conservative leaders have gotten together and have written an open letter calling the election legitimate, asking the entire party and party leaders to move on.  His endorsement is not an automatic win any more, and a a matter of fact really doesn't appear to be swaying primary's, but certainly will cause voters to switch parties and vote in Democrats, because people fear and are tired of Trump's lies and those who spread them.

The way things are looking to me, especially recently, is that Pence is going to be the one to step up and steer the repub's from Trump.  Desantis is too Trump like for me.

You're dead on.  I think the grown ups in the GOP want him gone so badly that it hurts.  They're looking at a sitting duck dem president, a stacked high court, and a layup midterm election.  Trump is just about the only thing that can screw them out of gaining an extremely formidable advantage.  

His endorsement has always been unreliable to lower ticket candidates, sometimes even detrimental in non-deep-red states.  His campaigning is often half-hearted (see Matt Bevin) and uninspiring.  He only cares about campaigning for one person, and that's Donald Trump.  Long term interest in the fate of the GOP is questionable when compared to his own ego.  He's also shown a propensity to thrown even his most loyal supporters under the bus when it suits his narrative.

Trump was cocaine for the GOP.  He was a fun and fast paced ride and when things were peaking he was very productive for them.  I think the party leaders like McConnell have ridden that horse as far as it can go and they know it.  It's time to take him out behind the barn and put his political career out of it's misery.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-24-2022, 01:04 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: what a load of misinformation. that has nothing to do with God or the bible. thats men doing bad things and nothing else. God wasnt for slavery and Jesus wasn't either. just cause men put that stuff in Gods book is just an example of how sinful and broken humans are. and theres 100% proof Jesus was the real person in the Bible. he walked the earth. he perfomed miracle and he was murdered for his teachings. he also rose from the tomb and witnesses saw it. theres a ton of proof. you just dont want to admit it cause you would value your sin over salvation.

So the bad stuff is the pride of men, but the garbage about men laying with men (which is an edit from the original writing BTW) is God's will?

How do you know what is added by men and the actual word of God? Because last I checked, mankind only got 10 rules from God and there ain't shit in those rules about homosexuality, abortions, when life begins or ends, and there's definitely nothing in there about spreading the gospel.

Congratulations - you played yourself.

[Leon]

(07-24-2022, 01:20 PM)GMDino Wrote: So you weren't taught that the Bible was God's word?

That He spoke through the authors and editors?

And if you don't believe that...how do you know God's words, wants or what He wants us to do?

You can't say it is because Jesus told us because you are still relying on the words written by "men" who "put stuff in God's book".

It doesn't work that way.  Or it shouldn't, but I'm old enough to recognize a Cafeteria Christian.

God has written his word on every man's heart. once you accept that and allow yourself to read the Bible in that light it gets pretty easy to see where man put in his own corruption. those are thongs that are against Gods nature and perfect goodness. if you tell someone a bunch of things and then they write a book about it, people who REALLY know you will be able to tell which parts didn't really say pretty easy cause the person currupted your words. 

[Leon]

(07-24-2022, 02:31 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: So the bad stuff is the pride of men, but the garbage about men laying with men (which is an edit from the original writing BTW) is God's will?

How do you know what is added by men and the actual word of God? Because last I checked, mankind only got 10 rules from God and there ain't shit in those rules about homosexuality, abortions, when life begins or ends, and there's definitely nothing in there about spreading the gospel.

Congratulations - you played yourself.

first off there was 613 rules not just 10. next, there is all kinds of stuff about spreading the gospel. what are you even talking about. please read the bible with God as your guide. it will make everything much easier to understand.

[GMDino]

(07-24-2022, 02:32 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: God has written his word on every man's heart. once you accept that and allow yourself to read the Bible in that light it gets pretty easy to see where man put in his own corruption. those are thongs that are against Gods nature and perfect goodness. if you tell someone a bunch of things and then they write a book about it, people who REALLY know you will be able to tell which parts didn't really say pretty easy cause the person currupted your words. 

So YOU know what is REALLY God's word...and anyone who AGREES with you is right about it also...because God told you.

Well that about sums it up folks.

[GMDino]

This discussion on what God REALLY meant reminds me of my college friend who "found God" after his first marriage.  He attended classes led by a relative of his who was a preacher, did all the proper readings, etc.

He love to debate me about what God REALLY means.  And he is always right because he STUDIED the bible and what it REALLY means.

When I bring up that men wrote the bible his argument is the same as above:  God wrote through those men.  

When I mention the parts left out or edited his answer is the same as above: God worked through those men.

When I question the inconsistencies and just awful things left in the bible...well, you get the point.

See HE knows what God and the bible really means because HE studied it.

My suggestion that any teacher other than God is still just teaching him a personal interpretation is scoffed at.   

In the end I told him the only way to know which one of us is right is when we die.  

[Leon]

(07-24-2022, 03:32 PM)GMDino Wrote: This discussion on what God REALLY meant reminds me of my college friend who "found God" after his first marriage.  He attended classes led by a relative of his who was a preacher, did all the proper readings, etc.

He love to debate me about what God REALLY means.  And he is always right because he STUDIED the bible and what it REALLY means.

When I bring up that men wrote the bible his argument is the same as above:  God wrote through those men.  

When I mention the parts left out or edited his answer is the same as above: God worked through those men.

When I question the inconsistencies and just awful things left in the bible...well, you get the point.

See HE knows what God and the bible really means because HE studied it.

My suggestion that any teacher other than God is still just teaching him a personal interpretation is scoffed at.   

In the end I told him the only way to know which one of us is right is when we die.  

the only way to know what God really wants is to really know God. just like any relationship.

[Leon]

(07-24-2022, 03:21 PM)GMDino Wrote: So YOU know what is REALLY God's word...and anyone who AGREES with you is right about it also...because God told you.

Well that about sums it up folks.

are you familiar with general revelation?

[GMDino]

(07-24-2022, 03:37 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: are you familiar with general revelation?

I am familiar with knowing that God speaks to all of us...but the only ones that are right are the ones that agree with you.

Human frailty and mistakes are the realm of OTHER people when it comes to what God and the Bible REALLY mean and what is REALLY true.

That is religion.  Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Belsnickel]

(07-24-2022, 03:32 PM)GMDino Wrote: This discussion on what God REALLY meant reminds me of my college friend who "found God" after his first marriage.  He attended classes led by a relative of his who was a preacher, did all the proper readings, etc.

He love to debate me about what God REALLY means.  And he is always right because he STUDIED the bible and what it REALLY means.

When I bring up that men wrote the bible his argument is the same as above:  God wrote through those men.  

When I mention the parts left out or edited his answer is the same as above: God worked through those men.

When I question the inconsistencies and just awful things left in the bible...well, you get the point.

See HE knows what God and the bible really means because HE studied it.

My suggestion that any teacher other than God is still just teaching him a personal interpretation is scoffed at.   

In the end I told him the only way to know which one of us is right is when we die.  

Personally, I'm a Micah 6:8 man. It's all I need most days.

There are two churches I am in more than any other. Two different denominations; one more liturgical, "high church" if you will and the other is more of my anabaptist roots. I'm a member of the liturgical one (wife grew up Catholic, so we split the difference and go Lutheran) and the other is one that charters three Scout units I work with a lot. In both of those churches, that verse is a prominent part of what guides them which is coincidental. It's not like it's universal in the denominations and these churches don't really intermingle (different towns, plus the denominations aren't known for getting along), but I love the coincidence and the connection between the two.

[Leon]

(07-24-2022, 03:54 PM)GMDino Wrote: I am familiar with knowing that God speaks to all of us...but the only ones that are right are the ones that agree with you.

Human frailty and mistakes are the realm of OTHER people when it comes to what God and the Bible REALLY mean and what is REALLY true.

That is religion.  Wash, rinse, repeat.

not only that he speaks to us, but evidence for what he actually wants of us is everywhere. if we choose to ignore it, thats on people and their rebellion. also thanks for giving your thoughts and not attacking me for mine, which seems people like to do which is to bad instead of just talking.

[Leon]

(07-24-2022, 03:55 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Personally, I'm a Micah 6:8 man. It's all I need most days.

There are two churches I am in more than any other. Two different denominations; one more liturgical, "high church" if you will and the other is more of my anabaptist roots. I'm a member of the liturgical one (wife grew up Catholic, so we split the difference and go Lutheran) and the other is one that charters three Scout units I work with a lot. In both of those churches, that verse is a prominent part of what guides them which is coincidental. It's not like it's universal in the denominations and these churches don't really intermingle (different towns, plus the denominations aren't known for getting along), but I love the coincidence and the connection between the two.

denominations shouldn't exist. its just another manmade way to separate flock.

[GMDino]

(07-24-2022, 03:55 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Personally, I'm a Micah 6:8 man. It's all I need most days.

There are two churches I am in more than any other. Two different denominations; one more liturgical, "high church" if you will and the other is more of my anabaptist roots. I'm a member of the liturgical one (wife grew up Catholic, so we split the difference and go Lutheran) and the other is one that charters three Scout units I work with a lot. In both of those churches, that verse is a prominent part of what guides them which is coincidental. It's not like it's universal in the denominations and these churches don't really intermingle (different towns, plus the denominations aren't known for getting along), but I love the coincidence and the connection between the two.

So I was raised Roman Catholic which means I didn't read the bible (rimshot) but that verse matches up with my recovering catholic philosophy:  My god isn't the angry god of the OT.  He wants us to do good to and for others and lead good lives.  That's it.  He doesn't care about who you fall in love with and how you mate with them.  He isn't judging you for saying GD but rather if you use his name to solely benefit yourself and to hurt others.

It's about love your neighbor...not judge your neighbor.

Maybe I'm wrong and I'll spend eternity suffering for caring about other's happiness more than caring what they were doing that I didn't agree with. 

[Belsnickel]

(07-24-2022, 04:02 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: denominations shouldn't exist. its just another manmade way to separate flock.

I believe the same about religions in general, but religions and the different branches within them are creations of man that provide community for so many. It is what it is.

[Belsnickel]

(07-24-2022, 04:02 PM)GMDino Wrote: So I was raised Roman Catholic which means I didn't read the bible (rimshot) but that verse matches up with my recovering catholic philosophy:  My god isn't the angry god of the OT.  He wants us to do good to and for others and lead good lives.  That's it.  He doesn't care about who you fall in love with and how you mate with them.  He isn't judging you for saying GD but rather if you use his name to solely benefit yourself and to hurt others.

It's about love your neighbor...not judge your neighbor.

Maybe I'm wrong and I'll spend eternity suffering for caring about other's happiness more than caring what they were doing that I didn't agree with. 

It's funny you say that. Micah 6:8 definitely sounds more in line with NT teachings, but it is an OT verse. It just goes to show that so much about what we think of the teachings in the Bible (because you aren't the only person that feels that way) can be skewed. I mean, I feel like Micah 6:8 and Matthew 22:35-40 contain universal truths that are really found in all religions. So there must be something to them, right?

[BigPapaKain]

(07-24-2022, 02:35 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: first off there was 613 rules not just 10. next, there is all kinds of stuff about spreading the gospel. what are you even talking about. please read the bible with God as your guide. it will make everything much easier to understand.

God handed down 10 commandments according to a book which you pointed out has be spoiled by the pride and ego of man.

Who is to say what is actually God's will versus what proud and egotistical men put in there to further their own agendas?

Or is it only the parts YOU don't like that reek of mankind's influence?

Sorry my guy - you don't get to say some parts are made up by bad people and other parts aren't and NOT elaborate.

[Leon]

(07-24-2022, 06:46 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: God handed down 10 commandments according to a book which you pointed out has be spoiled by the pride and ego of man.

Who is to say what is actually God's will versus what proud and egotistical men put in there to further their own agendas?

Or is it only the parts YOU don't like that reek of mankind's influence?

Sorry my guy - you don't get to say some parts are made up by bad people and other parts aren't and NOT elaborate.

what parts are you talking about specifically. i'm glad to help out if your really interested.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-24-2022, 07:31 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: what parts are you talking about specifically. i'm glad to help out if your really interested.

Dealer's choice, because all you're going to do is prove my point.