Trump may face a reckoning in case brought by female accuser

[GMDino]

(12-12-2017, 10:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Trump. Was it really not obvious given the post I quoted? 

Sorry.  Total brain fart on that one.  I read it as sided with "accusers".  Honest to god mistake there. That's what I get for reading the board while distracted at work!

Yes, Trump has been portrayed negatively for it.  Probably because of his history of only believing people who help him/his causes.  

[GMDino]

File this under I am stunned Trump lied about something that is easy to check out and prove him wrong.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/364506-footage-shows-trump-with-accusers-after-he-claimed-he-never-met-them

Quote:Footage shows Trump with some accusers after he claimed he ‘never met’ women

Videos and photos showing President Trump with some of the women who have accused him of sexual misconduct are resurfacing after Trump in a tweet Tuesday said his accusers are "women who I don’t know and/or have never met."


"Despite thousands of hours wasted and many millions of dollars spent, the Democrats have been unable to show any collusion with Russia — so now they are moving on to the false accusations and fabricated stories of women who I don’t know and/or have never met. FAKE NEWS!" Trump tweeted Tuesday.


People magazine published a photo later in the day showing Trump standing alongside Natasha Stoynoff, a former foreign correspondent for the magazine, while at Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort in 2005. People said that the photo was taken the same day that Stoynoff, in 2016, accused Trump of forcibly kissing her. 

Another photo surfaced following Trump's tweet Tuesday showing him with another accuser, Jill Harth.


Harth, who did business with Trump and later dated him, last year accused him of groping her in the early 1990s. According to a New York Times column published last year, Harth filed a sexual harassment lawsuit against Trump in 1997, but withdrew it when settling a separate lawsuit with Trump.


Another high-profile Trump accuser, Summer Zervos, was a contestant on NBC's "The Apprentice," which Trump hosted. The woman, who accused Trump of groping her in 2007, is seen in video sitting across a boardroom table from Trump on the show.


White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said Tuesday afternoon that Trump’s tweet earlier in the day was referring specifically to three other women who held a press conference the previous day about their accusations against Trump.


Rachel Crooks, Samantha Holvey and Jessica Leeds called on Congress to investigate the claims against Trump at the Monday news conference.


Nearly 60 Democratic women in Congress also called on the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee earlier this week to open an investigation into allegations of sexual misconduct against Trump.


In a letter, 59 members of the Democratic Women's Working Group ask Oversight Chairman Trey Gowdy (R-S.C.) and ranking member Elijah Cummings (D-Md.) to open an investigation into the matter after more than a dozen women have "publicly accused the President of sexual misconduct."

[Benton]

(12-13-2017, 12:09 AM)GMDino Wrote: File this under I am stunned Trump lied about something that is easy to check out and prove him wrong.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/364506-footage-shows-trump-with-accusers-after-he-claimed-he-never-met-them

I'm not sure if posing with someone in a photo op qualifies as knowing the person.

I get that it's fun to "gotcha" morons like Trump, but he (probably) couldn't name seven of the people in that photo. And he probably takes a few photos like that on an average "public" day.

[Dill]

(12-12-2017, 04:34 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: But my point is that so much is happening with only accusations. I think you picked up on that, Matt, when you mentioned preponderance level. It doesn't seem like they are at that level in a lot of these cases.

Also I don't feel there is the need to have the same pro-active and aggressive reaction to sexual harassment cases that you have in sexual assault cases. The latter is a physical crime upon another person's person akin to rape. The former is comments or attitudes which could hurt or degrade someone. There is a difference. That doesn't mean I believe sexual harassment complaints need to be ignored. Far from it. But as I mentioned before, a lot of sexual harassment cases are "he said, she said" situations without witnesses or evidence. In those circumstances, I'm not sure why you would choose to totally believe ne side or another and act on it without some deliberation and consideration for each side.

I think accusations should be heard and checked out by appropriate authorities, though not necessarily publicized without meeting some bar of credibility.

Your post speaks to a concern of mine about what follows when people start talking about ZERO TOLERANCE and refusing to distinguish between the myriad possible offenses ranging from repeated water cooler jokes/harassment to actually grabbing a woman Trump style, which is sexual assault.  

 I can understand why people don't want to be bothered with fine distinctions when it comes to Congressmen. One party will quickly accuse the other of double standards. But under ZT regimes, the definition/criterion of "fair punishment" quickly shifts from whether the punishment is appropriate to the level of offense to whether everyone is getting the same, regardless.   ZT will more likely create backlash than solve the problem.

(12-12-2017, 06:10 PM)Benton Wrote: In the case of public officials, people say "Well, obviously it's motivated, they didn't come forward until now. If it bothered them, they would've done something."

Well, coming forward that person is doing something. And maybe they waited because, at the time, it didn't matter. If Bill an attorney in town grabs a client's backside on his way into court, there's not a lot of recourse; but the client has some recourse if Bill — years later — is suddenly a political candidate where public opinion matters. On the other hand, the person may just be coming forward because she doesn't like Bill.

So, since there's not a lot of good answers after the accusation is made, we should probably work on our approach to gender expectations and acceptable behavior. When we accept people saying vulgar things about women by justifying it as "locker room talk" then we make unacceptable behavior acceptable. When we say "oh, it's not a big deal, he was just being funny" or "it's not a big deal, everybody sleeps with teens" then we're making it acceptable.

Maybe it's a good thing the two parties decided to politicize the issue, because maybe we'll finally start talking about how we raise kids and what kind of values we're teaching.

According to people who work with rape victims and battered women, it is pretty common that victims do not come forward.  But once they get the sense they are supported, going public becomes more likely. I think that is part of the reason why we now see so many women coming forward.

I totally agree with you about considering how all this looks to children. Reality show values have come to reign in our politics now.  At the level of civil society is really where we need to address the issue of harassment/assault--parents, schools, churches, coworkers, and Hollywood should be calling out the small stuff in everyday life rather than signalling permission by remaining silent. Toxic workplaces--and politicians--are an unsurprising consequence if we don't take on that responsibility.

[GMDino]

(12-13-2017, 01:16 AM)Benton Wrote: I'm not sure if posing with someone in a photo op qualifies as knowing the person.

I get that it's fun to "gotcha" morons like Trump, but he (probably) couldn't name seven of the people in that photo. And he probably takes a few photos like that on an average "public" day.

True, but it also helps beat his usual narrative about how he is never wrong.  But I agree that he probably just hits on every female he thinks will fold under his "charm" whether he knows them or not.

Of course that's moot because Sarah Sanders now says he meant the three that were on television...not ANY/ALL of them.  But also it would be nice to hold him accountable for trying to make important statements in 280 characters.  He uses a shorthand that needs "explained" every day.

Also, I think he did know them.  At least one he worked with, was sued by, and settled with (for a different matter).

[hollodero]

(12-12-2017, 04:21 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Not sure for the need to coordinate false stories. Even in cases where sexual harassment is confirmed and/or admitted, the stories of the victims always have variations. In fact, stories that are exactly the same might even cause some people to wonder if they were coordinated becasue they are so exactly the same.

Ah, I meant coordination because the stories came out at the same time. So if their stories are forged, they are either coordinated, or one would assume that more or less immediately after the first woman lies, others are motivated to do the same because it looks like fun or whatever. Which to me seems just as unlikely.
Including a former Miss Finland, because it's a career boost to claim she got her butt squeezed by Donald Trump... yeah my sceptizism is big on that one.

(12-12-2017, 04:21 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Hence, while I believe that the number of people making accusations is important and indicative to a degree, I can't say that that would be totally indicative.

Yeah I can't say that either. Not totally. But it seems highly unlikely that the multiple accusations are all forged. And while innocent until proven guilty is a holy principle in court, it is not in public perception, I can very well reach the conclusion that a person is very likely a scumbag and that therefore he very likely shouldn't be in public office or get my vote and so on. I don't think that's unfair.

[Belsnickel]

I never understand the arguments about women lying in situations like this. Considering the death threats they often get, I find it hard to believe that the number of women that have come forward are all lying just for attention or to get at someone for some reason.

[Bengalzona]

(12-13-2017, 01:12 PM)hollodero Wrote: Ah, I meant coordination because the stories came out at the same time. So if their stories are forged, they are either coordinated, or one would assume that more or less immediately after the first woman lies, others are motivated to do the same because it looks like fun or whatever. Which to me seems just as unlikely.
Including a former Miss Finland, because it's a career boost to claim she got her butt squeezed by Donald Trump... yeah my sceptizism is big on that one.


Yeah I can't say that either. Not totally. But it seems highly unlikely that the multiple accusations are all forged. And while innocent until proven guilty is a holy principle in court, it is not in public perception, I can very well reach the conclusion that a person is very likely a scumbag and that therefore he very likely shouldn't be in public office or get my vote and so on. I don't think that's unfair.

I am sure that the incidents of actual sexual harassment far, far outweigh the number of contrived stories. But the latter has happened before. And I'm about the law. Allegation is an allegation, not a conviction. While I believe Trump is slimy and probably did a lot of horrible things to women, I can't say for sure that they actually did occur. But you are correct about the court of public perception. If the public is convinced that a political figure did nasty things, then they shouldn't vote him/her into office (a la Roy Moore) or should vote them out of office at the next opportunity. Likewise, if a Hollywood star does reprehensible stuff (like Roman Polanski or Woody Allen), you don't go to see their movies.

But I don't think public perception is grounds enough to dismiss a sitting official (a la Trump), nor should it be. You have to bring the evidence for that.

(12-13-2017, 01:32 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I never understand the arguments about women lying in situations like this. Considering the death threats they often get, I find it hard to believe that the number of women that have come forward are all lying just for attention or to get at someone for some reason.

I hope no one is asking you to believe that "the number of women that have come forward are ALL lying". In my opinion, MOST women who make an accusation of sexual harassment are telling the truth. My point is only that lies for ulterior motives do sometimes occur. Also, I'm not altogether convinced that all or even most women who come forward with allegations, whether factual or contrived, receive death threats. Is there some sort of study somewhere that shows this?

[hollodero]

(12-13-2017, 02:14 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I am sure that the incidents of actual sexual harassment far, far outweigh the number of contrived stories. But the latter has happened before. And I'm about the law. Allegation is an allegation, not a conviction. While I believe Trump is slimy and probably did a lot of horrible things to women, I can't say for sure that they actually did occur. But you are correct about the court of public perception. If the public is convinced that a political figure did nasty things, then they shouldn't vote him/her into office (a la Roy Moore) or should vote them out of office at the next opportunity. Likewise, if a Hollywood star does reprehensible stuff (like Roman Polanski or Woody Allen), you don't go to see their movies.

But I don't think public perception is grounds enough to dismiss a sitting official (a la Trump), nor should it be. You have to bring the evidence for that.

Oh I agree with everything you just said. Those who did resign more or less admitted (ok pictures or records that show settlements etc. don't help prove innocence) that the allegations did hold ground, and then it's fine with me that they would resign.
If people in office deny the allegations, I am fine with an ethics investigation of some sorts. If proof is produced there, then the proven liar needs to go; if not, the electorate will decide what to do at the next election.
Without proof one of course can never be 100% certain, I can't be with Trump or Moore. Yet, 99% are good enough to vote accordingly. It's the climate change logic applied.

(12-13-2017, 02:14 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Is there some sort of study somewhere that shows this?

I know I wasn't asked, I don't know about studies, but it's at least fair to assume death threats are a distinct possibility. Or death wishes or other deeply hateful responses, like even Lindsey Vonn got (just for speaking her mind about Trump).

[Belsnickel]

(12-13-2017, 02:14 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I hope no one is asking you to believe that "the number of women that have come forward are ALL lying". In my opinion, MOST women who make an accusation of sexual harassment are telling the truth. My point is only that lies for ulterior motives do sometimes occur. Also, I'm not altogether convinced that all or even most women who come forward with allegations, whether factual or contrived, receive death threats. Is there some sort of study somewhere that shows this?

You may hope that, but that is what is presented in the tribalist arena of modern politics quite often.

As for the death threats, I'm unaware of a study, but I remember reading about many of those whose name was public received death threats. One recent civil case against Trump was dropped recently because of the fear generated by these threats.

[Dill]

(12-13-2017, 01:12 PM)hollodero Wrote: Ah, I meant coordination because the stories came out at the same time. So if their stories are forged, they are either coordinated, or one would assume that more or less immediately after the first woman lies, others are motivated to do the same because it looks like fun or whatever. Which to me seems just as unlikely.
Including a former Miss Finland, because it's a career boost to claim she got her butt squeezed by Donald Trump... yeah my sceptizism is big on that one.

Yeah I can't say that either. Not totally. But it seems highly unlikely that the multiple accusations are all forged. And while innocent until proven guilty is a holy principle in court, it is not in public perception, I can very well reach the conclusion that a person is very likely a scumbag and that therefore he very likely shouldn't be in public office or get my vote and so on. I don't think that's unfair.

One factor which inclines me to believe the Moore accusers is that none are public people. They appear to be unaware of what happens when you attack a popular Republican candidate.  They have no media skills. They look and sound like the small town, conservative, rural community church-goers that I grew up around who would very likely stand for a principle with no clue about the resulting media circus, and no idea of personal gain for sticking their neck out beyond standing for principle.

Trump's case, on the other hand, is rather like Cosby's. Myriad women from all corners of the US come forward and describe similar experiences which occured over decades.  It is possible that some golddigger sees the pattern and steps forward with a false claim in hopes of trading the risk of her own defamation for a possible payday. But that risk seems slight.  The idea that 19 plus women, most of whom don't know one another and come from diverse backgrounds/careers could be coordinated by some secret political entity seems exceedingly slight. And unlike Cosby, we have the Commander-in-chief of tape expressing his sheer delight at the power to walk into dressing rooms and grope.  "You can do anything you want!"

The perception that these stories "come out at the same time" is also a consequence of election timing, and not entirely accurate in that some of these accusers told friends and others, including Ivanka, actually went to court with charges of sexual abuse (rape in the case of Ivanka; though she has since walked that back for a settlement).

[GMDino]

(12-12-2017, 05:33 PM)GMDino Wrote: Trump has said something:  He said all the women accusing him are liars and he believes Moore over all his accusers.

He also had a horrible tweet today.

In other news:

GOP Rep. Accused of Raping 17-Year-Old Sings Hymn Before Declaring: 'No Reason I Would Resign' https://t.co/OJrjUtrf1G pic.twitter.com/3VqvVsdaQ7

— Mediaite (@Mediaite) December 12, 2017

Link from the tweet:

https://www.mediaite.com/online/gop-rep-accused-of-raping-17-year-old-sings-hymn-before-declaring-no-reason-i-would-resign/


The girl filed a police report and it was closed in 2013 with no charges filed.  So far no word on why, according to this article:

http://time.com/5059817/dan-johnson-sexual-assault-accusation/

Quoting the original story to post the follow up:

http://www.wdrb.com/story/37062873/kentucky-state-rep-dan-johnson-commits-suicide-on-bridge-in-mt-washington#.WjHVOiF3Jz0.twitter

Quote:Kentucky State Rep. Dan Johnson dies of 'probable suicide' in Mt. Washington



Kentucky State Rep. Dan Johnson died of 'probable suicide' on bridge in Mt. Washington





[/url]

 

Rep. Dan Johnson (R-Mt. Washington)

 

Johnson was found on a bridge over the Salt River on Greenwell Ford Drive.

 

Investigators have focused on this SUV parked to the side of the bridge.


LOUISVILLE, Ky. (WDRB) -- Kentucky State Rep. Dan Johnson, who was under investigation for alleged sexual molestation, died of a "probable suicide," the Bullitt County coroner said.


Bullitt County Sheriff Donnie Tinnell said Johnson drove onto the bridge over the Salt River on Greenwell Ford Road in Mt. Washington, parked on the north side of it and shot himself in front of his car. His body was found on the bank of the river, just past the bridge.


Just before 5 p.m. Wednesday, Johnson posted the following message on his Facebook page:

Quote:The accusations from NPR are false GOD and only GOD knows the truth, nothing is the way they make it out to be. AMERICA will not survive this type of judge and jury fake news . Conservatives take a stand. I LOVE GOD and I LOVE MY WIFE, who is the best WIFE in the world,My Love Forever ! My Mom and Dad my FAMILY and all five of my kids and Nine grandchildren two in tummies and many more to come each of you or a total gift from GOD stay strong, REBECCA needs YOU . 9-11-2001 NYC/WTC, PTSD 24/7 16 years is a sickness that will take my life, I cannot handle it any longer. IT Has Won This Life . BUT HEAVEN IS MY HOME. “PLEASE LISTEN CLOSELY, Only Three things I ask of you to do,if you love me is (1)blame no person,Satan is the accuser, so blame the Devil himself. (2) Forgive and Love everyone especially yourself .(3)most importantly LOVE GOD. P.S. I LOVE MY FRIENDS YOU ARE FAMILY ! GOD LOVES ALL PEOPLE NO MATTER WHAT !

The coroner said police were alerted after someone saw that Facebook post by Johnson. Officers then pinged Johnson's phone and found his body.


On Tuesday, Johnson held a press conference at his church on Bardstown Road, where he denied the molestation allegations. According to court documents obtained by the Kentucky Center for Investigative Reporting, the alleged molestation took place on New Year's Eve in 2012. The alleged victim, who was 17 at the time, told authorities that she was staying in a living area of the Heart of Fire City Church where Johnson was pastor, when Johnson, who had been drinking a lot, approached her, kissed her and fondled her under her clothes. 


Michael Skoler, the president of Louisville Public Media, which owns the Kentucky Center for Investigative Reporting, released a statement after Johnson's death:

Quote:"All of us at Louisville Public Media are deeply sad to hear that State Representative Dan Johnson has died, apparently of suicide. We grieve for his family, friends, church community and constituents.

Our Kentucky Center for Investigative Reporting released a report on Johnson this week. Our aim, as always, is to provide the public with fact-based, unbiased reporting and hold public officials accountable for their actions.

As part of our process, we reached out to Representative Johnson numerous times over the course of a seven-month investigation. He declined requests to talk about our findings."

Johnson was never criminally charged. 


Gov. Matt Bevin tweeted a statement Wednesday night, saying his "heart breaks for (Johnson's) family."

Quote:Governor Matt Bevin

@GovMattBevin

Saddened to hear of tonight’s death of KY Representative Dan Johnson...My heart breaks for his family tonight...These are heavy days in Frankfort and in America...May God indeed shed His grace on us all...We sure need it...
8:36 PM - Dec 13, 2017

Jeff Hoover, the former Kentucky Speaker of the House who resigned after sexual assault allegations, also tweeted a statement Wednesday night:

Quote:Jeff Hoover@KYHoover

I am very sad over the passing of Rep. Dan Johnson. Over the past few weeks in some of the darkest days of my life, he reached out to me, encouraged me, and prayed for me. Prayers for his wife, children, grandchildren and all affected by this sad event.
8:59 PM - Dec 13, 2017

Quote:[url=https://twitter.com/KYHoover]Jeff Hoover@KYHoover
Replying to @KYHoover

In America, those accused of wrongdoing are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Persons posting accusations on social media as truth, and those who are self righteous and indignant over mere accusations must do better. Personal attacks don’t have to be part of politics.
9:04 PM - Dec 13, 2017

Not sure if he is a victim or not.  Or if this is a something people will say the "media" forced him into.  I'd say this is not the right way out whether he was guilty or innocent.

[BigPapaKain]

(12-14-2017, 12:39 AM)GMDino Wrote: Quoting the original story to post the follow up:

http://www.wdrb.com/story/37062873/kentucky-state-rep-dan-johnson-commits-suicide-on-bridge-in-mt-washington#.WjHVOiF3Jz0.twitter


Not sure if he is a victim or not.  Or if this is a something people will say the "media" forced him into.  I'd say this is not the right way out whether he was guilty or innocent.

He couldn't have been that pious if he committed a mortal sin to escape the accusations.

[GMDino]

(12-14-2017, 08:59 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: He couldn't have been that pious if he committed a mortal sin to escape the accusations.

I had the same thought. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-14-2017, 08:59 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: He couldn't have been that pious if he committed a mortal sin to escape the accusations.

This is a very touchy subject; yet you make a point worth discussion. It most likely could be its own thread.

Most every Christian believes that suicide is a sin; however, not unpardonable. Some feel that it is "easier" for the believer to commit suicide because they know what awaits them. IMO, it is a sin as it goes against the will of God and everyone should lean on the lord in times of anguish, but God knows everyone's mind and will pardon every sin save one.

[Belsnickel]

(12-14-2017, 10:59 AM)bfine32 Wrote: This is a very touchy subject; yet you make a point worth discussion. It most likely could be its own thread.

Most every Christian believes that suicide is a sin; however, not unpardonable. Some feel that it is "easier" for the believer to commit suicide because they know what awaits them. IMO, it is a sin as it goes against the will of God and everyone should lean on the lord in times of anguish, but God knows everyone's mind and will pardon every sin save one.

Diversity within religions is so fun to look at. It is what makes any conversation about Christians, Muslims, or any group of believers difficult.

[*Nately120*]

(12-14-2017, 12:39 AM)GMDino Wrote: Quoting the original story to post the follow up:

http://www.wdrb.com/story/37062873/kentucky-state-rep-dan-johnson-commits-suicide-on-bridge-in-mt-washington#.WjHVOiF3Jz0.twitter


Not sure if he is a victim or not.  Or if this is a something people will say the "media" forced him into.  I'd say this is not the right way out whether he was guilty or innocent.

His body, his choice.