Trump on undocumented immigrants: 'These aren't people. These are animals.'

[GMDino]

(05-21-2018, 09:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks like the OP play right into the hands of extreme right wingers. They love it and left leaners should be more upset with threads such as this than anyone who ever supported Trump. Matt has already displayed his dissatisfaction. 

As I have said for the last year, this is just more of the Boy who cried wolf. It weakens the left and strengthens the right in the public opinion. It is why I am willing to entertain it for so long. 

As to issues at hand, of course we should focus on them. For instance Trump has demanded a probe into the FBI and/DOJ infiltrating his campaign on the order of the Obama administration. Instead  of talking about that we are "discussing" an obvious misrepresentation. 

Should that go in the "Things Trump says" thread?  Or do we have to wait until there are actual actions?

Because I've been told that what he tweets and says isn't important either.

Please make up my mind!

[*bfine32*]

(05-21-2018, 09:06 PM)GMDino Wrote: Should that go in the "Things Trump says" thread?  Or do we have to wait until there are actual actions?

Because I've been told that what he tweets and says isn't important either.

Please make up my mind!

Oh, just keep doing what you're doing. It is entertaining and detrimental to the left. 

[GMDino]

(05-21-2018, 09:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Oh, just keep doing what you're doing. It is entertaining and detrimental to the left. 

I thought we were required to answer questions?



Anywho there are lots of threads on the other corruption within this administration.  Or as Trump's fans put it "Fake news" and crying about things.

[*bfine32*]

(05-21-2018, 09:16 PM)GMDino Wrote: I thought we were required to answer questions?



Anywho there are lots of threads on the other corruption within this administration.  Or as Trump's fans put it "Fake news" and crying about things.

I did answer: I told you to keep doing what you're doing and I appreciate it. As you can see I did not pose another question; I simply answered yours. WTS, no one is required to answer questions; it just enhances the communication process. Plenty of legitimate things to talk about Trump, but things such as this and wrong sized envelopes are not it.

[hollodero]

(05-21-2018, 09:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks like the OP play right into the hands of extreme right wingers. They love it and left leaners should be more upset with threads such as this than anyone who ever supported Trump. Matt has already displayed his dissatisfaction. 

As I have said for the last year, this is just more of the Boy who cried wolf. It weakens the left and strengthens the right in the public opinion. It is why I am willing to entertain it for so long. 

As to issues at hand, of course we should focus on them. For instance Trump has demanded a probe into the FBI and/DOJ infiltrating his campaign on the order of the Obama administration. Instead  of talking about that we are "discussing" an obvious misrepresentation. 

Yeah seriously, this one really gets massively overblown. Trump sure is Trump, but even he wouldn't go as far as to wittingly call all undocumented immigrants "not people, but animals". To assume that is quite a reach, especially given the circumstances.

And yes, that indeed plays right into the hands of extreme right wingers. Plus, all other Trump supporters. With that huge amount of perfectly fair criticism laying around, it's not necessary to jump to every exaggeration possible. That just makes all the fair criticism less credible to many. In short, as Bels said.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-21-2018, 07:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Focusing on this type of shit is why the Democrats are having a tough time of things in the polls even though this should be a stellar year election-wise.

Couldn’t agree more. Democrats should be rolling in the midterms. They are their own problem in almost every issue atm.

[Dill]

(05-21-2018, 08:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Because no one has ever made similar comments about a certain poster citing The Dailywire, right?

What do you mean by "similar"?

I critique the Daily Wire because it has low or no journalistic standards. And I have critiqued at least one poster for relying on articles therefrom without vetting them carefully. But I don't recall dismissing any article from any source without reading it first and/or refusing to explain where it falls short. Just as I don't dismiss anyone's argument without explaining where I think it falls short.

All that is certainly consistent with critiquing someone for dismissing an article without even engaging it all because it is supposedly "leftist."

Do you defend that practice or were you just hoping for a "tu quoque"?

[Dill]

(05-21-2018, 09:27 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah seriously, this one really gets massively overblown. Trump sure is Trump, but even he wouldn't go as far as to wittingly call all undocumented immigrants "not people, but animals". To assume that is quite a reach, especially given the circumstances.

And yes, that indeed plays right into the hands of extreme right wingers. Plus, all other Trump supporters. With that huge amount of perfectly fair criticism laying around, it's not necessary to jump to every exaggeration possible. That just makes all the fair criticism less credible to many. In short, as Bels said.

LOL   Sure, I think we can assume "some are good people."

But which demographic do you suppose would find "that huge amount of perfectly fair criticism" less credible because of this "exaggeration"?

"Some of them were wrong to assume Trump meant ALL immigrants are animals because of the dehumanizing remarks he has already made about immigrants, so how can I trust any of them when they say he paid off a porn star from a secret slush fund flush with hundreds of thousands of dollars from a Russian Oligarch?" 

Exaggeration is not good in journalism, but I find it very doubtful that someone capable of recognizing exaggeration and really discouraged by it would then turn to the massive, daily exaggeration in Trump's own words and behavior as the lesser evil.

[hollodero]

(05-21-2018, 11:17 PM)Dill Wrote: "Some of them were wrong to assume Trump meant ALL immigrants are animals because of the dehumanizing remarks he has already made about immigrants, so how can I trust any of them when they say he paid off a porn star from a secret slush fund flush with hundreds of thousands of dollars from a Russian Oligarch?" 

Something among these lines, yes. "When the media and the liberals are so eagerly out to slam Trump as often as they can - and here's an actually convincing example of that - why believe all these Russia stories then. They're just out to get him, as evidenced by example." That connection is made.
These exaggerations actually help Trump. Bels said it, bfine said it, and I think they're spot on.

(05-21-2018, 11:17 PM)Dill Wrote: Exaggeration is not good in journalism, but I find it very doubtful that someone capable of recognizing exaggeration and really discouraged by it would then turn to the massive, daily exaggeration in Trump's own words and behavior as the lesser evil.

Not as the lesser evil, no. Trump might just appear more tolerable. Because, everyone exaggerates.

[fredtoast]

(05-21-2018, 07:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote:  I may have just laid out a scenario for which we have zero actual proof for, but it relies on as much proof as those saying the comments were about all immigrants. 

Not true.

We have prior qutes from Trump about how the immigrants from Mexico are "the worst".  Rapists, murders, and drug mules.

This "animals" comment is right in line with his previous position.

[*bfine32*]

(05-22-2018, 08:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Not true.

We have prior qutes from Trump about how the immigrants from Mexico are "the worst".  Rapists, murders, and drug mules.

This "animals" comment is right in line with his previous position.

Or who knows (and I'm just spitballing here). It might also be right in line with a previous comment where he refereed to MS13 as animals.

Also, could you provide me with a direct quote where he calls the immigrants the "worst"? I can provide one in which he calls MS13 animals. 

As I have said there are 3 people in this forum that do not (or refuse to) realize exactly who POTUS was referring to with the Animals remark. All other left leaners in the forum are displaying some sense of objectivity. Although I like the objectivity in this forum my hope is more left leaners display the traits of the 3 irrational posters.  

[GMDino]

I think I'm starting to change my mind about Trump and Mexicans.

I forgot about this:

https://www.chron.com/news/politics/article/Donald-Trump-s-Cinco-de-Mayo-taco-tweet-has-us-7395864.php

Happy #CincoDeMayo! The best taco bowls are made in Trump Tower Grill. I love Hispanics! https://t.co/ufoTeQd8yA pic.twitter.com/k01Mc6CuDI

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 5, 2016

[Belsnickel]

(05-22-2018, 08:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Not true.

We have prior qutes from Trump about how the immigrants from Mexico are "the worst".  Rapists, murders, and drug mules.

This "animals" comment is right in line with his previous position.

You have prior behavior that can point to both scenarios. That evidence is a wash for both.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-21-2018, 07:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Focusing on this type of shit is why the Democrats are having a tough time of things in the polls even though this should be a stellar year election-wise.

I concur.  I also expressed months ago that exactly what is happening would happen.  Of course the election hasn't happened yet, but I get the feeling it won't go well for the Dems.  If the N. Korea summit goes well, or at all, then it could go really bad for the Dems.

(05-21-2018, 10:38 PM)Dill Wrote: What do you mean by "similar"?

I'm sorry, you're not familiar with that word?

Quote:I critique the Daily Wire because it has low or no journalistic standards. And I have critiqued at least one poster for relying on articles therefrom without vetting them carefully. But I don't recall dismissing any article from any source without reading it first and/or refusing to explain where it falls short. Just as I don't dismiss anyone's argument without explaining where I think it falls short.

Cool, if the comment doesn't apply to you then don't internalize it.

Quote:All that is certainly consistent with critiquing someone for dismissing an article without even engaging it all because it is supposedly "leftist."

I'd say Vox has the same flaws you described above, to varying degrees.  

Quote:Do you defend that practice or were you just hoping for a "tu quoque"?

Again, if you don't think the heavy allusions to hypocrisy apply to you then don't internalize them.  They allegation certainly applies to some of us here.

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2018, 10:06 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You have prior behavior that can point to both scenarios. That evidence is a wash for both.

It is not a wash because in both scenarios, "Talking about ms-13" and "Talking about illegal immigrants", he calls them "the worst", "criminals", "rapist and murderers". 

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2018, 09:26 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Also, could you provide me with a direct quote where he calls the immigrants the "worst"? 

"When Mexico (meaning the Mexican Government) sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you (pointing to the audience). They're not sending you (pointing again). They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems to us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime.

"What can be simpler or more accurately stated? The Mexican Government is forcing their most unwanted people into the United States. They are, in many cases, criminals, drug dealers, rapists, etc. This was evident just this week when, as an example, a young woman in San Francisco was viciously killed by a 5 time deported Mexican with a long criminal record, who was forced back into the United States because they didn't want him in Mexico. This is merely one of thousands of similar incidents throughout the United States. In other words, the worst elements in Mexico are being pushed into the United States by the Mexican
government. The largest suppliers of heroin, cocaine and other illicit drugs are Mexican cartels that arrange to have Mexican immigrants trying to cross the borders and smuggle in the drugs. The Border Patrol knows this. Likewise, tremendous infectious disease is pouring across the border. The United States has become a dumping ground for Mexico and, in fact, for many other parts of the world."

[*bfine32*]

(05-22-2018, 11:11 AM)fredtoast Wrote: "When Mexico (meaning the Mexican Government) sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you (pointing to the audience). They're not sending you (pointing again). They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems to us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime.

"What can be simpler or more accurately stated? The Mexican Government is forcing their most unwanted people into the United States. They are, in many cases, criminals, drug dealers, rapists, etc. This was evident just this week when, as an example, a young woman in San Francisco was viciously killed by a 5 time deported Mexican with a long criminal record, who was forced back into the United States because they didn't want him in Mexico. This is merely one of thousands of similar incidents throughout the United States. In other words, the worst elements in Mexico are being pushed into the United States by the Mexican
government. The largest suppliers of heroin, cocaine and other illicit drugs are Mexican cartels that arrange to have Mexican immigrants trying to cross the borders and smuggle in the drugs. The Border Patrol knows this. Likewise, tremendous infectious disease is pouring across the border. The United States has become a dumping ground for Mexico and, in fact, for many other parts of the world."

Well he did preface his comments with facts. I also don't see where he calls immigrants the worst. He does state that the worst elements are being sent in.

If I were to rationally apply those words I would say he is pointing to the worst elements (in many cases) of illegal immigration; however, I suppose I could see how someone may assume he's talking about all illegal immigrants if they had an agenda to fulfill.

But thanks for the direct reply.

EDIT: Oh maybe you answer wasn't a direct as I thought as it appears you cutoff the first quote (I know, I know VERY unlike you):

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best — they’re not sending you,” Mr. Trump said then. “They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

man that kinda shoots a hole in the Trump thinks all illegal immigrants are animals position. Thanks for bringing up the quote.

As I told Dill and Dino, I do encourage you to keep up the irrational thoughts and words

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2018, 11:49 AM)bfine32 Wrote: If I were to rationally apply those words I would say he is pointing to the worst elements (in many cases) of illegal immigration; however, I suppose I could see how someone may assume he's talking about all illegal immigrants if they had an agenda to fulfill.

You mean get funding to build a wall?

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2018, 11:49 AM)bfine32 Wrote: EDIT: Oh maybe you answer wasn't a direct as I thought as it appears you cutoff the first quote (I know, I know VERY unlike you):

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best — they’re not sending you,” Mr. Trump said then. “They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

man that kinda shoots a hole in the Trump thinks all illegal immigrants are animals position. Thanks for bringing up the quote.

As I told Dill and Dino, I do encourage you to keep up the irrational thoughts and words

So apparently you never read the OP.  (I know, I know VERY unlike you)


Trump does not think that all illegal immigrants are animals, but he has been demonizing them in order to get funding for the Wall.  He is clearly painting a picture where a majority of illegal immigrants are violent criminals, and this just is not true.  Illegal immigrants are no more likely to be violent criminals than any other US citizens.  MS-13 accounts for less than 1% of street gang members in the United States yet Trump acts like they are the biggest threat among all gangs.

As far as I know Trump has done nothing to address the other 1.3 million gang members in the United Sates.  That is because he would have to admit that MS-13 is only a small drop in the bucket.  he avoids taking any action against real gang violence because it would discredit his claims about ms-13.  If Trump really did care about the safety of Americans from gang violence he would be addressing gang violence instead of just Mexican gang violence.  But he does not really care about gang violence.  All he cares about is demonizing Mexicans.

There is nothing irrational about pointing out what the President is doing.

[*bfine32*]

(05-22-2018, 12:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So apparently you never read the OP.  (I know, I know VERY unlike you)


Trump does not think that all illegal immigrants are animals, but he has been demonizing them in order to get funding for the Wall.  He is clearly painting a picture where a majority of illegal immigrants are violent criminals, and this just is not true.  Illegal immigrants are no more likely to be violent criminals than any other US citizens.  MS-13 accounts for less than 1% of street gang members in the United States yet Trump acts like they are the biggest threat among all gangs.

As far as I know Trump has done nothing to address the other 1.3 million gang members in the United Sates.  That is because he would have to admit that MS-13 is only a small drop in the bucket.  he avoids taking any action against real gang violence because it would discredit his claims about ms-13.  If Trump really did care about the safety of Americans from gang violence he would be addressing gang violence instead of just Mexican gang violence.  But he does not really care about gang violence.  All he cares about is demonizing Mexicans.

There is nothing irrational about pointing out what the President is doing.

As I said keep thinking that Trump was talking all illegal immigrants (read the title of the OP and the comments) as no qualifier of how many is provided. of course there is nothing irrational about pointing out what POTUS is doing, but to assert he was talking about any population other than MS13 and/or violent criminals in the link provided is irrational and it looks good on you.