Trump on undocumented immigrants: 'These aren't people. These are animals.'

[*Nately120*]

(09-12-2018, 01:25 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I'd argue it's been that way since Fox News came out. Since then, there's been no real attempt to keep news from being biased one way or the other and this has become an excuse to completely disregard any information we don't wish to hear, or that challenges our beliefs. Sure, the fake news thing continues this and changes the whining from "BIASED NEWS!!" to "FAKE NEWS!!" but it's been like that since at least Fox News' inception, if not before.

Well, Fox News was founded by a tabloid magnate and they've testified in court that they have the right to intentionally broadcast false information, so there is a point there.  With that being said, stuffing people full of bs so you can lead them down a chosen path existed long before 1996.  The idea that American voters went into an election between Nixon and Kennedy in 1960 with all the facts straight because for-profit news didn't exist yet is shaky.

[Dill]

(09-12-2018, 11:03 AM)bfine32 Wrote: So you think it's the truth?

No, I don't think it's the truth. But every statement is not either a lie or "the truth."

The term "lie" describes a relation between what a speaker believes and a statement he makes.

If I think your car is parked out back, and I tell you it is parked out back, that is not a lie, even if in the meantime Dino has moved it around front, so it is not out back anymore.

My statement is neither true nor a lie.

To sharpen another point--when I say I agree with you that Obama's "lies" are like the statements most every other politician makes--many or most of which are not really lies--I am still distinguishing between every other politician and Trump, who tells real lies constantly, deliberately, and uses them to create divisions and drive animosity towards minority groups.

[Dill]

(09-12-2018, 11:08 AM)Vlad Wrote: You make zero sense.

You deny that the fake news media exists? What more evidence do you need?
You do know that CNN and others were in the tank for Hillary correct?
You do know that CNN recused to retract its reporting of a Lanny Davis lie correct?

I'm not going to post proof of every fake news story, or lie. If you really seek the truth, you can do it yourself.

Jeezus, if Nately doesn't believe there is fake news out there, show him your list of Obama's lies again, or maybe Trump's 80 first year accomplishments. If that doesn't convince him its hopeless.

[Dill]

(09-12-2018, 11:52 AM)Vlad Wrote: Aw...and you're wondering how Trump supporters can continue to support and defend  him.

Because it's easy when life is good.

Whats the matter, is life not good for you liberal Trump haters?

It's certainly a much easier task than what you have in supporting vile, violent, obstructionist democRATS.

It's easy when you didn't elect him for his tact, or his ability to "act presidential"...those traits are for the true liars.

It's easy when he has done exactly what he said he was going to do.

It's easy when he has taken an honest effort to do what he has been unable to do.

Awww.. "Trump said a naughty thing"...Just go to your designated safe space.

Keeper.   I especially like the distinction between "true liars" who act presidential (i.e. responsibly) and Trump. 

Did you even notice you were accusing DemocRATS of tact and violence at the same time?

LOL Trump said "assassinate Assad" and General Mattis went to a safe space.

Obama economy still roaring--but maybe not much longer?

[Dill]

(09-12-2018, 01:09 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I never said fake news doesn't exist, I'm simply saying that the fact that fake news exists has become an excuse to completely disregard any information we don't wish to hear, or that challenges our beliefs.  Intentional distribution of misinformation has benefited both major political parties (as well as nearly every aspect of marketing/sales/etc) for generations.  All recent developments have given us that is new is a label for it, and a president who continuously complains about it.  By all means, find a single election in US history where all information presented on the candidates was 100% verified and true, I flippin' dare ya.

Also, I realize you portray a bit of a character on this board (you are fake news in a sense, I guess) so I won't spend too much time with this, but your insistence on labeling me as some sort of left-wing, Hillary-loving nutbag is both irksome and tiresome.

Good points all. I would only add that the term "fake news" as deployed by our president and cohorts, is generally aimed not at Fox and Alex Jones but the more responsible reporting of the NYT and WaPo.

So the problem is not simply that some groups ply disinformation, but that the term now predominately targets real news, often very good journalism to create confusion and distrust of institutions whose authority is important to the function of democracy.

[*bfine32*]

(09-12-2018, 05:23 PM)Dill Wrote: No, I don't think it's the truth. But every statement is not either a lie or "the truth."

The term "lie" describes a relation between what a speaker believes and a statement he makes.

If I think your car is parked out back, and I tell you it is parked out back, that is not a lie, even if in the meantime Dino has moved it around front, so it is not out back anymore.

My statement is neither true nor a lie.

To sharpen another point--when I say I agree with you that Obama's "lies" are like the statements most every other politician makes--many or most of which are not really lies--I am still distinguishing between every other politician and Trump, who tells real lies constantly, deliberately, and uses them to create divisions and drive animosity towards minority groups.

So you think Obama believes Special Olympians are good at bowling, but someone made them bad at it while he wasn't looking?

I get you're motive, but you're responses are just getting sillier and sillier. Now you can admit that Obama's slur of Special Olympians was as bad, if not worse, than any "lie" Trump has told or you think it is not.

Either way; I'm done.

[GMDino]

(09-12-2018, 07:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So you think Obama believes Special Olympians are good at bowling, but someone made them bad at it while he wasn't looking?

I get you're motive, but you're responses are just getting sillier and sillier. Now you can admit that Obama's slur of Special Olympians was as bad, if not worse, than any "lie" Trump has told or you think it is not.

Either way; I'm done.

[Dill]

(09-12-2018, 07:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So you think Obama believes Special Olympians are good at bowling, but someone made them bad at it while he wasn't looking?

I get you're motive, but you're responses are just getting sillier and sillier. Now you can admit that Obama's slur of Special Olympians was as bad, if not worse, than any "lie" Trump has told or you think it is not.

Either way; I'm done.

Wait . . . did Obama say special olympians are bad at bowling in private, then say they are good at in public?

If so, then I think we have caught him in a lie.

And of course, Obama's slur is not worse than any lie Trump has told, as I explained above.  And it is not worse than publicly making fun of a disabled person, which was not a lie, just bad behavior made worse by denial and refusal to apologize.

Ha ha, distinguishing between false statements made in good faith and intentionally falsified statements--as our legal system in fact does--is "silly."

So of course you're "done." 

[fredtoast]

Special Olympians are bad at bowling.

So the same people who excuse Trumps lies try to attck Barry for telling the truth?

[*bfine32*]

(09-12-2018, 11:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Special Olympians are bad at bowling.

So the same people who excuse Trumps lies try to attck Barry for telling the truth?

https://www.specialolympics.org/our-work/sports/bowling

How bad are they Fred?

[fredtoast]

(09-12-2018, 11:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: https://www.specialolympics.org/our-work/sports/bowling

How bad are they Fred?

They average less than 110, so on average they are pretty bad.  Howeverv the winners rolled in the 180's, so that would beat my ass.

Overall Barry's claim that his 129 was like the special olympics seems to be true.  

[GMDino]

I wonder, did the POTUS tweet about this yet?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/09/16/border-patrol-agents-arrest-serial-killer-rocks-laredo/1331732002/

Quote:Woman's escape leads to arrest of 'serial killer' Border Patrol agent



(Photo: Webb County Sheriff's Office)



The arrest of a veteran Border Patrol agent as a serial murder suspect in the shooting deaths of four people has rocked the border community of Laredo.



Laredo is often seen as a relatively small community, but its population has surged over the past 27 years, from 125,787 in the 1990 U.S. Census to 260,654 in 2017.


Webb County District Attorney Isidro R. “Chilo” Alaniz sought to drive that point home during an impromptu press conference on Saturday following the arrest of 35-year-old Juan David Ortiz on multiple counts of murder and other charges.


"Laredo's not the sleepy town that we all grew up in," Alaniz said. "These are crimes that are consistent with bigger cities — Laredo is a big city. We're seeing more and more serious crimes, (so) it can happen. People need to be careful. We need to look out for each other."


More: Updated: Border Patrol agent charged with murder


Ortiz, a 10-year veteran of U.S. Customs and Border Protection, is being held on four counts of murder, as well as one count each of evading arrest or detention, unlawful restraint — expose to serious bodily injury, and aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, according to online jail records. His bond is set at $2.5 million.


Webb County Sheriff Martin Cuellar, during Saturday's press conference, said an attempted kidnapping on Friday is what led authorities to Ortiz. His arrest capped what had been a 10-day period during which authorities found the bodies of four people who had each been shot to death.

Law enforcement officers gather near the scene where the body of a woman was found near Interstate 35 north of Laredo, Texas on Saturday, Sept. 15, 2018. (Photo: AP)

A fifth person — a woman named Erika Pena — was nearly kidnapped on Friday, but was able to run from Ortiz and flag down a state trooper at a nearby gas station, according to an affidavit provided by the Webb County District Attorney's Office.


"Apparently, the suspect pulled out a gun on her and she was able to escape," Cuellar said during Saturday's press conference.


The affidavit identified two of the deceased as 42-year-old Claudine Ann Luera and 29-year-old Melissa Ramirez.
Ramirez's body was the first found, discovered on Sept. 4. She had been shot multiple times in the head, according to the affidavit. Ortiz reportedly told investigators that he picked Ramirez up in the area of San Bernardo Avenue on Sept. 3, then drove outside the city limits, according to the affidavit.


When they arrived at the location, Ramirez got out of the vehicle to urinate, at which point Ortiz used a handgun to shoot her multiple times in the head before driving away, according to the affidavit. A motive for the killing was not given.
Ramirez is survived by her two children, her mother, and two siblings.


According to the affidavit, Pena said Ortiz had picked her up on San Bernardo Avenue and took her to his home. Pena said that when she mentioned Ramirez's murder the week before, Ortiz "began to act weird," according to the affidavit. 

When the two went to a nearby gas station, they began talking again about Ramirez's murder when Ortiz pulled a black pistol on Pena and pointed it at her, according to the affidavit. When she tried to get out of the pickup truck, Ortiz grabbed her shirt — but Pena was able to pull it off and run away, fleeing toward a state trooper who was refueling his patrol vehicle, according to the affidavit.


Luera was found Sept. 13 shot and left on the side of a road, but still alive. She died at a hospital later in the day, according to the affidavit. Ortiz reportedly told police that after picking up Luera on San Bernardo Avenue, they drove outside the city limits.

Ortiz stated that he pulled over after Luera "became nervous" and began accusing Ortiz of being the last person seen with Ramirez. When Luera got out of the vehicle, according to the affidavit, Ortiz also exited and used a handgun to shoot Luera multiple times in the head before leaving the area. A truck driver later found Luera's body, and she was transported to a local hospital where she died.
.
According to the affidavit, after Pena escaped Ortiz's vehicle at the gas station, he went on to kill two more people that same evening.


The identities of the other two victims have not been released by law enforcement officials. Those two individuals were only identified in the affidavit as "Jane Doe" and "John Doe," but both had been shot to death.

The Texas Tribune reported that one of the victims was a transgender woman. A single spent casing was found near the body, according to the affidavit.

Texas Rangers and investigators with the sheriff's department went to Ortiz's home and searched it, but Ortiz was not home. 
He was found just after 1 a.m. at a gas station near San Bernardo Avenue and Jefferson Street, but fled on foot when approached by state troopers, according to the affidavit.


He was found at about 2:30 a.m. Saturday hiding in a pickup truck at a hotel parking garage, according to the affidavit. Ortiz provided a "voluntary verbal confession" to all four murders and Pena's attempted kidnapping and aggravated assault, according to the affidavit.


"The county and city can rest assured that we have a serial killer in custody," Cuellar said.
Christina Ayala, 29, was at H-E-B grocery store shopping on Sunday night in Laredo, and said she and her family had heard about the killings.


The news was especially shocking to her because a Border Patrol agent is the one accused. 


"That's somebody that you would actually go to for help or something," she said.  


Ayala has lived in the South Texas city her entire life, and said she didn't expect something like the serial murders to happen there.


"It's not a big city like San Antonio, Houston, where you see that a lot," she said. 

[GMDino]

Rather than start a new thread I'll post this here:

....In addition to stopping all payments to these countries, which seem to have almost no control over their population, I must, in the strongest of terms, ask Mexico to stop this onslaught - and if unable to do so I will call up the U.S. Military and CLOSE OUR SOUTHERN BORDER!..

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 18, 2018

Now, putting aside the immigration issue as a whole...there's a line that that is problematic.

Of all the disturbing things he has tweeted the line about countries have "almost no control over their population" is the most troubling.

It shows his true, inner dictator, wannabe tendencies and his lack of fundamental understanding of immigration/freedom.

"control their population"?  Wha is he thinking?  If anything?

[BmorePat87]

(09-12-2018, 11:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They average less than 110, so on average they are pretty bad.  Howeverv the winners rolled in the 180's, so that would beat my ass.

Overall Barry's claim that his 129 was like the special olympics seems to be true.  

This is a really pathetic attempt to defend a really awful comment that Obama rightfully apologized for. 

[*PhilHos*]

(10-18-2018, 10:48 AM)GMDino Wrote: Rather than start a new thread I'll post this here:

....In addition to stopping all payments to these countries, which seem to have almost no control over their population, I must, in the strongest of terms, ask Mexico to stop this onslaught - and if unable to do so I will call up the U.S. Military and CLOSE OUR SOUTHERN BORDER!..

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 18, 2018

Now, putting aside the immigration issue as a whole...there's a line that that is problematic.

Of all the disturbing things he has tweeted the line about countries have "almost no control over their population" is the most troubling.

It shows his true, inner dictator, wannabe tendencies and his lack of fundamental understanding of immigration/freedom.

"control their population"?  Wha is he thinking?  If anything?

Maybe he's talking about law & order in general. Oh wait, sorry, forgot Trump CLEARLY is demonstrating his "inner dictator".

[GMDino]

(10-18-2018, 11:20 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Maybe he's talking about law & order in general. Oh wait, sorry, forgot Trump CLEARLY is demonstrating his "inner dictator".

"Law and order" cannot keep people from immigrating.  It might help the problems within the border that lead to mass immigration, but given the rest of his rage tweeting this morning it leans more toward actually "controlling" their people.

Take it for what you will.

[BFritz21]

(09-12-2018, 11:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They average less than 110, so on average they are pretty bad.  Howeverv the winners rolled in the 180's, so that would beat my ass.

Overall Barry's claim that his 129 was like the special olympics seems to be true.  

Yeah, I'm sure that he made that statement with calculations in mind and didn't mean anything offensive.  



Wow..........   just when you think you've heard it all.

[GMDino]

(10-18-2018, 11:20 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Maybe he's talking about law & order in general. Oh wait, sorry, forgot Trump CLEARLY is demonstrating his "inner dictator".

I should add to my first response but this was something Pence said not Trump:

Just heard that the VP gave a speech where he said to other leaders to tell their people if don't come here legally don't come at all.  Which is great in theory, except they keep making it harder to come here legally AND they are creating a situation where even the ones who come her legally are treated as illegals.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-18-2018, 12:04 PM)GMDino Wrote: "Law and order" cannot keep people from immigrating.  

But is he talking about immigration right there? Yes, later in the tweet he's talking about it, but is that what he means righ there? I can't see twitter while at work, so based on that tweet alone, I see Trump talking about "law & order". With that said, he does say "control the population" so even if he means "law & order' better to say something like anarchy than a lack of "control".

[GMDino]

(10-18-2018, 02:17 PM)PhilHos Wrote: But is he talking about immigration right there? Yes, later in the tweet he's talking about it, but is that what he means righ there? I can't see twitter while at work, so based on that tweet alone, I see Trump talking about "law & order". With that said, he does say "control the population" so even if he means "law & order' better to say something like anarchy than a lack of "control".

All three tweets:

I am watching the Democrat Party led (because they want Open Borders and existing weak laws) assault on our country by Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador, whose leaders are doing little to stop this large flow of people, INCLUDING MANY CRIMINALS, from entering Mexico to U.S.....

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 18, 2018

....In addition to stopping all payments to these countries, which seem to have almost no control over their population, I must, in the strongest of terms, ask Mexico to stop this onslaught - and if unable to do so I will call up the U.S. Military and CLOSE OUR SOUTHERN BORDER!..

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 18, 2018

....The assault on our country at our Southern Border, including the Criminal elements and DRUGS pouring in, is far more important to me, as President, than Trade or the USMCA. Hopefully Mexico will stop this onslaught at their Northern Border. All Democrats fault for weak laws!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 18, 2018

Purely about immigration.

I know some among us will tell us to not look at what he "said" but what he "meant" (not saying you are one of them).

Seems pretty clear he thinks the leaders of other countries can "control" their population to keep them from leaving.