Trump's Axios interview

[Belsnickel]

(08-05-2020, 01:39 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Many of you guys have my respect. That being the case it amazes me that you still find it shocking that anyone could support Trump over Biden. The POTUS contest has really become less about the candidate and more about the polices of their party. Trump is odious and a buffoon, but if you prefer the GOP agenda over the Dem agenda you're going to vote for him. If for no other reason than the next POTUS could potentially nominate three SCOTUS justices. If you stop viewing this as a candidate specific issue and more of a long game this isn't that difficult to understand. Many voters, on both sides, view this as a vote that will determine the future course of the country (more so than most anyways).

Of course some here would tell us that voting for any GOP candidate is objectively wrong. I'm sure their unbiased opinion is utterly persuasive.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, here. This may get the thread off track, and for that I apologize, but the Never Trumper Republicans that emerged in 2016 and the Lincoln Project that is currently putting some serious effort behind getting Trump out of office show that your claim isn't entirely accurate. These are people that are hard core Republicans and support the policies of the GOP. It's something I remind some local liberals about, regularly, when they are cheering them on.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-05-2020, 01:39 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Many of you guys have my respect.  That being the case it amazes me that you still find it shocking that anyone could support Trump over Biden.  The POTUS contest has really become less about the candidate and more about the polices of their party.  Trump is odious and a buffoon, but if you prefer the GOP agenda over the Dem agenda you're going to vote for him. If for no other reason than the next POTUS could potentially nominate three SCOTUS justices.  If you stop viewing this as a candidate specific issue and more of a long game this isn't that difficult to understand.  Many voters, on both sides, view this as a vote that will determine the future course of the country (more so than most anyways).

Of course some here would tell us that voting for any GOP candidate is objectively wrong.  I'm sure their unbiased opinion is utterly persuasive.  

I don't find it shocking Republicans would support a faux Republican.  I find their reasons shocking.  For example, a Trump supporter telling me he doesn't like Fauci because Fauci lies and he doesn't like people who lie or being lied to.  (Wait. What?  Trump is the most prolific liar I've ever seen.)  Or Christians that support Trump because sometimes God uses bad people to do good things.  (Yeah, like how God uses Satan to pack 'em in the pews.) 

[Benton]

(08-05-2020, 01:39 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Many of you guys have my respect.  That being the case it amazes me that you still find it shocking that anyone could support Trump over Biden.  The POTUS contest has really become less about the candidate and more about the polices of their party.  Trump is odious and a buffoon, but if you prefer the GOP agenda over the Dem agenda you're going to vote for him. If for no other reason than the next POTUS could potentially nominate three SCOTUS justices.  If you stop viewing this as a candidate specific issue and more of a long game this isn't that difficult to understand.  Many voters, on both sides, view this as a vote that will determine the future course of the country (more so than most anyways).

Of course some here would tell us that voting for any GOP candidate is objectively wrong.  I'm sure their unbiased opinion is utterly persuasive.  

I'm not so sure.

If it was an unlikable party line guy, I would agree with you 100%. But Trump isn't that. He only slightest less opposed to Republicans than he is to Democrats. The only thing he's supportive of is yes-men. In my opinion (and that's all it is), there are a lot of "real" Republicans who won't support a guy who, really, doesn't support them. He can call himself a Republican all he wants, but outside of advocating for less taxation for the upper class, there are few areas where he aligns with the party.

Trump's biggest ally in the last election wasn't Republicans, it was fringe voters who hoped he would support their causes.

[Dill]

(08-05-2020, 09:51 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I don't find it shocking Republicans would support a faux Republican.  I find their reasons shocking.  For example, a Trump supporter telling me he doesn't like Fauci because Fauci lies and he doesn't like people who lie or being lied to.  (Wait. What?  Trump is the most prolific liar I've ever seen.)  Or Christians that support Trump because sometimes God uses bad people to do good things.  (Yeah, like how God uses Satan to pack 'em in the pews.) 

This.

The continued support for Trump has a lot to do with how Trump and GOP allies have manage conspiracy theories about "hoaxes" and the like to make enough Americans feel their way of life is threatened if anyone but Trump wins the election. They don't care any more about judges and free trade. They are not just sitting back and comparing party platforms to go with the one that seems best, political rhetoric aside. Political rhetoric decides the issue for them, not actual policy results.

What I find shocking is that Trump's abuse of power matters so little. It looks like his supporters don't care about that because either they don't know how to recognize it or the think it a good thing because the Dems are so partisan and evil bending or breaking the law is the only way to stop them.

Certainly it is ok to be "shocked" by all that. It means bad things for the nation, e.g., that bad leaders and conspiracies will be a big part of our future, making the country ungovernable.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-05-2020, 11:05 AM)Dill Wrote: This.

The continued support for Trump has a lot to do with how Trump and GOP allies have manage conspiracy theories about "hoaxes" and the like to make enough Americans feel their way of life is threatened if anyone but Trump wins the election. They don't care any more about judges and free trade. They are not just sitting back and comparing party platforms to go with the one that seems best, political rhetoric aside. Political rhetoric decides the issue for them, not actual policy results.

What I find shocking is that Trump's abuse of power matters so little. It looks like his supporters don't care about that because either they don't know how to recognize it or the think it a good thing because the Dems are so partisan and evil bending or breaking the law is the only way to stop them.

Certainly it is ok to be "shocked" by all that. It means bad things for the nation, e.g., that bad leaders and conspiracies will be a big part of our future, making the country ungovernable.

C’mon. He’s the law and order president.

[Dill]

(08-05-2020, 07:13 AM)hollodero Wrote: ad1, likewise, ad 2, I personally could never vote for a person like Trump, never have I felt that strongly about my agenda that I could overloook that. I'd vote for a conservative candidate any day if my alternative was some progressive version of Trump. It's easier for me to say when it's the other way round for sure, but this person... I could never overlook all that. And it IS important what person is on the ticket.

My agenda might just be that I want a competent and intelligent person running things, one that accepts norms and democracy and decency and everything that makes the western model work, and to try to avoid a descent into ridiculousness, utter ineptness and a hate-filled idiocracy. Which, imho, is what Trump provides. More conservative judges etc. won't heal that.

I know America is a different cup of thea than what I personally experienced, I am not shocked that someone would vote for Trump, but it doesn't go as far as that this has my complete and total understanding. 

I tend to agree with the bolded. The Axios interview makes clear Trump is not that guy.

The "shock" many experience upon finding that such a large plurality of Americans will vote for someone who does not understand the Constitution, knows nothing of diplomacy and world/US history, regularly abuses presidential prerogatives, and mocks women who claim they have been raped/assaulted, has to do with what this implies for the judgment of millions of Americans and their understanding--or lack thereof--of how a democracy is supposed to work, the kind of norms, civility and bipartisanship it requires for basic functioning. 

Ted Cruz would have promoted the GOP agenda, but many Republicans chose Trump over Cruz precisely because it wasn't just about that agenda, or in many cases because they cared little for that agenda. (Benton is quite correct to reference the "fringe" voters Trump drew, many of whom never gave a fig for any GOP platform. They wanted a wall.) Many may have voted a "long game" in 2016 on the assumption Trump would mature in office; but those voters have mostly seen the light now, and it is doubtful whether such long gamers will really make up a majority of Trump voters in November. 

As Bels pointed out, there are a great many who "prefer the GOP agenda" but understand that Trump is a menace to our government/nation. Most of those are traditional conservatives, people who represent themselves as standing for and guided by principles of decency and honesty in personal life and the Constitution in government. They are as disturbed as the Dems when Trump vindictively fires family members of whistleblowers and pardons criminals who shield him from prosecution.

These folks don't think anyone really gets the GOP agenda anymore when they vote for Trump--they get Trump, and with him the breakdown of norms which traditional conservatives have always made a point of upholding, including constitutional government. They are putting the nation over their party and hold out hope the party may be rebuilt someday.

Trump really doesn't have "policies." He just dictates in an ad hoc fashion and McConnell and company work around him to get their tax cuts and judges while they can.  A much more accurate predictor of how one will vote in this election will not be one's stance on free trade, but one's view of the Russia, Ukraine, and pandemic "hoaxes" and BLM.

So for both sides it is actually LESS about the policies and more about the Trump the embattled candidate, who is either producing a constitutional crisis or bravely withstanding a deep state coup, depending upon one's willingness and ability to vet news sources --or not.

[BmorePat87]

(08-05-2020, 11:05 AM)Dill Wrote: This.

The continued support for Trump has a lot to do with how Trump and GOP allies have manage conspiracy theories about "hoaxes" and the like to make enough Americans feel their way of life is threatened if anyone but Trump wins the election. They don't care any more about judges and free trade. They are not just sitting back and comparing party platforms to go with the one that seems best, political rhetoric aside. Political rhetoric decides the issue for them, not actual policy results.

What I find shocking is that Trump's abuse of power matters so little. It looks like his supporters don't care about that because either they don't know how to recognize it or the think it a good thing because the Dems are so partisan and evil bending or breaking the law is the only way to stop them.

Certainly it is ok to be "shocked" by all that. It means bad things for the nation, e.g., that bad leaders and conspiracies will be a big part of our future, making the country ungovernable.

Trump is the product of years of the GOP questioning the legitimacy of the media, demonizing Obama, and declaring that they were victims in a culture war. Many people support him because he is that rhetoric personified. 

For that group has little to do with ideology. He is the antithesis of Christian values. He is a populist first and foremost. He promotes authoritarianism over democracy whenever he gets the chance. But he tells people that the media is the enemy, that Obama was born in Africa and the most corrupt President, and that minorities are criminals that are trying to ruin the country.

There are some Republicans who do not buy this but accept it as it means conservative judges. Regardless of their motives, we should be shocked, as you said, that they continue to be complacent in unprecedented abuse of the office.

[BmorePat87]

This is the best video on the internet

Ok. Who made this? It's genius. pic.twitter.com/EkwG2RlDel

— The Lincoln Project (@ProjectLincoln) August 5, 2020

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-05-2020, 01:50 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This is the best video on the internet

Ok. Who made this? It's genius. pic.twitter.com/EkwG2RlDel

— The Lincoln Project (@ProjectLincoln) August 5, 2020

“Don’t we get credit?”

Yes, you do.

Look at your polls. There’s your credit.

[BrownAssClown]

(08-05-2020, 01:50 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This is the best video on the internet

Ok. Who made this? It's genius. pic.twitter.com/EkwG2RlDel

— The Lincoln Project (@ProjectLincoln) August 5, 2020

I find this funny and sad at the same time. This buffoon in charge at a time like this is really no laughing matter, although adding the fart sound effect was a nice touch.(That was a sound effect wasn't it?)

[CJD]

Ah, Trump's greatest weakness. Basic follow up questions in an environment where he can't just walk away.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-05-2020, 02:00 AM)jmccracky Wrote: It's not that I disagree with Trump on everything. I have definitely read some things that were ridiculous regarding some of the Trump haters standpoint. But this interview really brought home that he is just not a great leader. He is totally divisive. More than Obama was. Trump is not fit to be president. But then again....here he is being president. I dont agree with the GOP platform, as a whole, and some of the Dem platform. I've voted Dem and Repub since 1994 since I was old enough to vote. I want a uniter....not a divider. Yes.....the media is bad at dividing us. I just can't vote for a guy like Trump that purposely tries to divide us. I dunno....my food for thought. 

The interview is a train wreck.  Here's the thing though, I can absolutely see why you, or someone else, would not vote for Trump.  What I do find strange is people who can't imagine why anyone would.  It's patently obvious.

(08-05-2020, 07:13 AM)hollodero Wrote: ad1, likewise, ad 2, I personally could never vote for a person like Trump, never have I felt that strongly about my agenda that I could overloook that. I'd vote for a conservative candidate any day if my alternative was some progressive version of Trump. It's easier for me to say when it's the other way round for sure, but this person... I could never overlook all that. And it IS important what person is on the ticket.

My agenda might just be that I want a competent and intelligent person running things, one that accepts norms and democracy and decency and everything that makes the western model work, and to try to avoid a descent into ridiculousness, utter ineptness and a hate-filled idiocracy. Which, imho, is what Trump provides. More conservative judges etc. won't heal that.

I know America is a different cup of thea than what I personally experienced, I am not shocked that someone would vote for Trump, but it doesn't go as far as that this has my complete and total understanding. 

You can understand why someone does something and still think they're totally wrong.  I'm more referring to those who think our only salvation is a Democratic House, Senate and White House.  I'd take four more years of Trump and a divided Congress over that any day of the week.  I've seen first hand just how crazy and nonsensical "progressive" politics is, and it's borderline terrifying.

(08-05-2020, 07:20 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm going to have to disagree with you, here. This may get the thread off track, and for that I apologize, but the Never Trumper Republicans that emerged in 2016 and the Lincoln Project that is currently putting some serious effort behind getting Trump out of office show that your claim isn't entirely accurate. These are people that are hard core Republicans and support the policies of the GOP. It's something I remind some local liberals about, regularly, when they are cheering them on.

This actually supports my claim that Trumpism is centered around Trump.  Once he is gone I expect a return to the standard GOP template.

(08-05-2020, 09:51 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I don't find it shocking Republicans would support a faux Republican.  I find their reasons shocking.  For example, a Trump supporter telling me he doesn't like Fauci because Fauci lies and he doesn't like people who lie or being lied to.  (Wait. What?  Trump is the most prolific liar I've ever seen.)  Or Christians that support Trump because sometimes God uses bad people to do good things.  (Yeah, like how God uses Satan to pack 'em in the pews.) 

Eh, that's one reason out of hundreds, and not a huge one at that.  There are numerous things a conservative leaning voter is going to get out of Trump that they have zero chance of getting from Biden.

(08-05-2020, 10:44 AM)Benton Wrote: I'm not so sure.

If it was an unlikable party line guy, I would agree with you 100%. But Trump isn't that. He only slightest less opposed to Republicans than he is to Democrats. The only thing he's supportive of is yes-men. In my opinion (and that's all it is), there are a lot of "real" Republicans who won't support a guy who, really, doesn't support them. He can call himself a Republican all he wants, but outside of advocating for less taxation for the upper class, there are few areas where he aligns with the party.

Trump's biggest ally in the last election wasn't Republicans, it was fringe voters who hoped he would support their causes.

I agree, which further supports my claim that Trumpism is a symptom of Trump and not a shift in GOP priorities.

[Dill]

(08-06-2020, 05:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You can understand why someone does something and still think they're totally wrong.  I'm more referring to those who think our only salvation is a Democratic House, Senate and White House.  I'd take four more years of Trump and a divided Congress over that any day of the week.  I've seen first hand just how crazy and nonsensical "progressive" politics is, and it's borderline terrifying.

LOL If we don't want gridlock and crazy then a Dem House, Senate and WH IS our only salvation, if that means some stable and responsible governance, finally, plus a national healthcare solution.

The bolded here is the key to continued Trump strength, even in the face of disaster--the terror before "leftism."  In 2016 it was Hillary. Now it is Portland and the "deep state."

You can understand why people do something and still be totally "shocked" that they would do it.

(08-06-2020, 05:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: [b]Belsnickel Wrote:[url=http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Trump-s-Axios-interview?pid=888555#pid888555][/url]I'm going to have to disagree with you, here. . . .the Never Trumper Republicans that emerged in 2016 and the Lincoln Project that is currently putting some serious effort behind getting Trump out of office show that your claim isn't entirely accurate. These are people that are hard core Republicans and support the policies of the GOP. ...

[/b]This actually supports my claim that Trumpism is centered around Trump.  Once he is gone I expect a return to the standard GOP template.

I agree, which further supports my claim that Trumpism is a symptom of Trump and not a shift in GOP priorities.

When over 80% of Republicans embrace Trumpism, that certainly is a symptom of a shift in GOP priorities. Not an aberration. You've given no account of why the rejection of diplomacy and the desire for walls and bans and harsh treatment of immigrants and fear of "lefistm/socialism" will stop when Trump leaves office. As if all the divisive, xenophobic images and deep state conspiracies won't be ready to hand for the next Republican national leader who wants to elbow moderates aside.

You seem to be arguing that mass, continued support for a Trump candidacy amidst his incompetent handling of civic unrest and a pandemic obscures the real identity of the Republican party now, to which it will magically revert once Trump is gone,  And the existence of a fraction of never Trumpers somehow proves the rule rather than the exception.

Just as you seem to be arguing that the election of Biden obscures the real radical, crazy and "borderline terrifying" identity of the Democratic party. AOC as Attorney General? Elizabeth Warren Secretary of the Treasury? Ilan Omar as Secretary of State?  Because Pelosi and Biden offer little "pushback" to them in an election year? 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-06-2020, 05:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Eh, that's one reason out of hundreds, and not a huge one at that.  There are numerous things a conservative leaning voter is going to get out of Trump that they have zero chance of getting from Biden.

That’s probably why I wrote, “For example” rather than listing hundreds.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-07-2020, 01:10 AM)Dill Wrote: LOL

I wonder if you realize how many of your posts start with this type of statement and how inherently condescending that it?

Quote:If we don't want gridlock and crazy then a Dem House, Senate and WH IS our only salvation, if that means some stable and responsible governance, finally, plus a national healthcare solution.

Your standards are entirely subjective.  What you define as "stable and responsible" is not so defined by others.  Solipsism springs to mind.

Quote:The bolded here is the key to continued Trump strength, even in the face of disaster--the terror before "leftism."  In 2016 it was Hillary. Now it is Portland and the "deep state."

Semantic argument aside, it's an objection to the politics you define as "stable and reasonable".  Not everyone thinks the same as you.  Your pedantry does not alter this.

Quote:You can understand why people do something and still be totally "shocked" that they would do it.

No, because that's not what I said.

Quote:When over 80% of Republicans embrace Trumpism, that certainly is a symptom of a shift in GOP priorities. Not an aberration. You've given no account of why the rejection of diplomacy and the desire for walls and bans and harsh treatment of immigrants and fear of "lefistm/socialism" will stop when Trump leaves office. As if all the divisive, xenophobic images and deep state conspiracies won't be ready to hand for the next Republican national leader who wants to elbow moderates aside.

You clearly seem determined to ignore the central thrust of my argument, that Trump's priorities and policies are largely dependent on his presence as a political figure.  Absent that, the GOP will revert to it's norm.

Quote:You seem to be arguing that mass, continued support for a Trump candidacy amidst his incompetent handling of civic unrest and a pandemic obscures the real identity of the Republican party now, to which it will magically revert once Trump is gone,  And the existence of a fraction of never Trumpers somehow proves the rule rather than the exception.

No, and this utter failure to grasp my actual argument is puzzling to me.  I state, quite simply, that support for Trump can be as utterly simple as opposing the Democratic party's position.  Being married to the ideology of Trump is not required.

Quote:Just as you seem to be arguing that the election of Biden obscures the real radical, crazy and "borderline terrifying" identity of the Democratic party. AOC as Attorney General? Elizabeth Warren Secretary of the Treasury? Ilan Omar as Secretary of State?  Because Pelosi and Biden offer little "pushback" to them in an election year? 

Rather than resorting to mockery I might expect you to actually refute the point actually being made.  The politics of the far left have taken deep root in the west coast, a not insignificant segment of the nation's population, at least on a majority of the state level.  Perhaps if you address the point actually being made we can delve deeper into this question?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-07-2020, 02:06 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: That’s probably why I wrote, “For example” rather than listing hundreds.

I got that, but that doesn't change the point I was making.

[hollodero]

(08-06-2020, 05:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The interview is a train wreck.

So people say, and it's true, just in my view it was not the least surprising or revealing. Trump was just Trump, same as he always is.

(08-06-2020, 05:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You can understand why someone does something and still think they're totally wrong.  I'm more referring to those who think our only salvation is a Democratic House, Senate and White House.  I'd take four more years of Trump and a divided Congress over that any day of the week.  I've seen first hand just how crazy and nonsensical "progressive" politics is, and it's borderline terrifying.

I see. Of course I accept that, why wouldn't I. I will not go as far as to understand it. Imho you fight virtual demons with a real-life devil.
You had democratic-led chambers time and again. Obama's first term started like that, as far as I remember. What terrifying things did actually happen? A new federal health care plan resembling the one Romney suggested. And I'm certain many also claimed back then that senate, house and presidency in the hand of liberals would lead to a disaster and be the end of the US. I have a hunch where your fears are stemming from, I just feel those fears are overblown and quite unrealistic.
Who of the current Dem leadership is actually a radical progressive. Who is in the whole Congress really. You might name the "squad", and I guess that's that. As a whole though, this party still is quite moderate and doesn't really dare to step out of it.

On the other hand, if Trump gets reelected? Then the GOP has no chance to revert "back to normal". It's four more years of turning to jaded right-wing populism. A standard GOP template you seem to prefer, or say some sense of normalcy, will not get more likely. It needs deep losses to trigger that, not an emboldenment of Trumpism.

[Belsnickel]

(08-06-2020, 05:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This actually supports my claim that Trumpism is centered around Trump.  Once he is gone I expect a return to the standard GOP template.

I don't know how much I agree. Many of the problems we are currently facing, like the destruction of norms and the degradation of our democracy, have been going on for decades. Trump just turned up the gas a bit. Even the appeal to white nationalists has to be seen within the context of the Southern Strategy and other policies that worked to play up racial animus to provide a foil for working class white people and keep them distracted from the real cause of their issues.

So without Trump, how will the party shift? Will it return to the same things that led to the rise of Trump, or will it go a bit further back?

And don't mistake what I'm saying as me being one-sided about this. I blame the Democratic party for a lot, as well. Their abandoning of the principles of folks like FDR really helped facilitate this problem, as well.

[GMDino]

So Biden is just a pawn beholden to the "leftists" who "really" run the party like AOC but  if Trump loses Jim Jordan will be different?  And Matt Gaetz?  And Cruz?

Please.

Trump is just the loudest version of the new GOP.  And the rest are happy to be on his coattails now but also are dumb enough to think that he's right and they should continue the fight against "the swamp", the "deep state" and whatever boogeyman will scare people into voting against their own well being.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-07-2020, 02:10 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I got that, but that doesn't change the point I was making.

It doesn't change the point I was making, either.  And I started by stating I understand why Republicans would support a faux Republican.