Trump's Tax Plan

[BmorePat87]

So we have some basic ideas of what the proposal will be, but obviously we won't really know everything until we see what's in the bill.

Initial thoughts? I heard rumors of the mortgage deductions taking a hit. I'm a little concerned about whether or not I'll get hit as a new home owner with them taking away the ability to deduct local taxes, which hits my state hard. Then again, I heard it would hit upper middle income people more so.

[Belsnickel]

I'll continue to be poor and likely see no benefit. If it adds to the debt, which is almost guaranteed at this point, then we shouldn't be doing it.

[GMDino]

If Ryan is agreeing with something Trump proposed I assume I will get totally screwed and the country will go further into debt and it will be awful.  Although I'd also assume Trump said "cut taxes bigly" and mumbled something about maga rather than make an actual proposal.

Just a guess on my part until I see more details.

[NATI BENGALS]

If we cut medical benefits to the poor sickies i bet we could pay for a small fraction of these tax cuts for the rich. Well worth it imo. Put the wall on our credit card. Disregard the cost of the massive natural disasters. Finally the rich will be able to get richer

[Benton]

On the surface, it looks like more of the same that's been happening since the 80s: taxes going down on lower and upper classes, middle classes taking a bigger hit.

Sole proprietor businesses look to take a big hit, while corporations are getting lowered.

But a lot can change before it actually comes to fruition. MY guess, many of the proposed cuts will get taken out, and so will the initial exemption for middle class earners (right now, yourfirst $12k is tax free, the rest of it gets taxed at a higher rate). I think they'll pick through that number and see how much money they're going to lose.

So, in the end, I think we'll have another budget of spending we can't afford with tax cuts to upper and lower brackets that they don't need.

[Luvnit2]

(09-28-2017, 11:52 AM)Benton Wrote: On the surface, it looks like more of the same that's been happening since the 80s: taxes going down on lower and upper classes, middle classes taking a bigger hit.

Sole proprietor businesses look to take a big hit, while corporations are getting lowered.

But a lot can change before it actually comes to fruition. MY guess, many of the proposed cuts will get taken out, and so will the initial exemption for middle class earners (right now, yourfirst $12k is tax free, the rest of it gets taxed at a higher rate). I think they'll pick through that number and see how much money they're going to lose.

So, in the end, I think we'll have another budget of spending we can't afford with tax cuts to upper and lower brackets that they don't need.

Really, the proposal is to increase zero tax for an individual to $12,000 and a family $24,000. That is all for the lower income group and could beneift some in the middle class as well. They are keeping the home mortgage deduction, but eliminating a lot of deductions the rich can take as well.

The small business owners are being killed (middle class by the way) with the current tax structure so hopefully this will give t hem some relief as well.

It confuses me when citizens take the bait to keep being the one of the highest taxed nations in the world versus attempting to lower taxes and curb wasteful spending like 135 billion a year on illegal immigration.

[Benton]

(09-28-2017, 12:33 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Really, the proposal is to increase zero tax for an individual to $12,000 and a family $24,000. That is all for the lower income group and could beneift some in the middle class as well. They are keeping the home mortgage deduction, but eliminating a lot of deductions the rich can take as well.

The small business owners are being killed (middle class by the way) with the current tax structure so hopefully this will give t hem some relief as well.

It confuses me when citizens take the bait to keep being the one of the highest taxed nations in the world versus attempting to lower taxes and curb wasteful spending like 135 billion a year on illegal immigration.

From what I've seen, estimates are it will have a $2 trillion deficit impact over 10 years. That's not good. It's got $6 trillion in tax cuts over the same period, without enough offsetting spending reductions.

That, to me, is unacceptable.

I'd love lower taxes, too. But we either have to reduce spending enough to lower taxes, or increase taxes enough to cover spending. Both sides have a good argument for their approach, and I'm not getting into which is better. I'm just tired of seeing budgets that try to make everyone happy by increasing our debt and lowering how much we have to pay to be in debt.

As far as deductions for the rich, if you've got any info I would like to read it. Most of what I've read is directly or indirectly cuts for the rich. Like the tax cut where profits are income, allowing business owners to go from a rate currently at 39% down to 25% (if they're a high income earner). Or doing away with the etate tax (which I'm in favor of, but it greatly benefits higher income earners more than lower income earners).

This budget — at least on the surface — seems like the same thing we've had since the 80s. Lower earners get a break. Higher earners get a break. Middle earners (those of us in the $40,000-$200,000 area) get the shaft. Again.


edit:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/trump-gop-roll-tax-plan-cuts-rates-doubles-50121627

Deductions for mortgage interest and charitable giving would remain, but the plan seeks to end most other itemized deductions that can reduce how much affluent families pay.

A battle is already brewing among Republicans over a move to eliminate the deduction for state and local taxes, which is especially valuable to people in high-tax states such as New York, New Jersey and California. Republicans from those states are vowing to fight it.

The plan also would:

—Retain existing tax benefits for college and retirement savings such as 401(k) contribution plans.

—Seek to help families by calling for an increased child tax credit and opening it to families with higher incomes. The credit currently is $1,000 per child. Also proposed is a new tax credit of $500 to help pay for the care of the elderly and the sick who are claimed as dependents by a taxpayer.

—Eliminate the estate tax — paid by those with multimillion-inheritances, a boon for wealthy individuals who inherit businesses, investments and real estate. Also slated for elimination is the alternative minimum tax, a supplemental tax for certain individuals, corporations and estates that enjoy exemptions that lower their income tax bills.

—Allow companies to pay substantially lower tax rates, part of an effort to make U.S. businesses more competitive globally. The plan would impose a new, lower tax on corporate profits stashed overseas, and create a new tax structure for overseas business operations of U.S. companies.

—Give new benefits to firms in which the profits double as the owners' personal income. They would pay at a 25 percent rate, down from 39.6 percent. This creates a possible loophole for rich investors, lawyers, doctors and others; administration officials say they will design measures to prevent any abuses.

[Belsnickel]

(09-28-2017, 12:33 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It confuses me when citizens take the bait to keep being the one of the highest taxed nations in the world versus attempting to lower taxes and curb wasteful spending like 135 billion a year on illegal immigration.

So, you've bought this lie? We are not one of the highest taxed nations in the world, unless you are going to say that all OECD countries are. When compared with other WEIRD nations, or other OECD nations, we are on the low end in both how much we are taxed and how that translates to the services we receive from that as citizens.

In all seriousness, we should cut spending and increase taxes. Our economy is on the upswing and we need to get Keynesian on this shit.

[CKwi88]

All is as expected.

They dangle a carrot in front of people in the form of the doubling of the 12k and other small concessions while cutting taxes to corporations and ultra wealthy that will help them pocket millions.

It's almost as if we were warned about this last year.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-28-2017, 12:53 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, you've bought this lie? We are not one of the highest taxed nations in the world, unless you are going to say that all OECD countries are. When compared with other WEIRD nations, or other OECD nations, we are on the low end in both how much we are taxed and how that translates to the services we receive from that as citizens.

In all seriousness, we should cut spending and increase taxes. Our economy is on the upswing and we need to get Keynesian on this shit.

If we have to take more of people’s money then we have to do what we have to do, but the pure joy I see in some people when we do really turns me off on it. It should be a regrettable action. (Not directly aimed at Matt. Just used his post as a springboard. )

[Luvnit2]

(09-28-2017, 12:53 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, you've bought this lie? We are not one of the highest taxed nations in the world, unless you are going to say that all OECD countries are. When compared with other WEIRD nations, or other OECD nations, we are on the low end in both how much we are taxed and how that translates to the services we receive from that as citizens.

In all seriousness, we should cut spending and increase taxes. Our economy is on the upswing and we need to get Keynesian on this shit.

Add all taxes we pay

Federal
State
Local
Sales Taxes on food and goods
Social Security and medicare

Yep, we are one of highest taxed nations in the world

[Luvnit2]

(09-28-2017, 01:15 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: All is as expected.

They dangle a carrot in front of people in the form of the doubling of the 12k and other small concessions while cutting taxes to corporations and ultra wealthy that will help them pocket millions.

It's almost as if we were warned about this last year.

I thought the argument was the rich already don't pay enough. So absurd when Americans are too dumb to realize it is tax dollars paid and not tax percents that matter. You can't cash a percent at your local bank.

[Benton]

(09-28-2017, 02:24 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Add all taxes we pay

Federal
State
Local
Sales Taxes on food and goods
Social Security and medicare

Yep, we are one of highest taxed nations in the world

Eh, even all that together, off the top of my head, we still only have an individual liability of less than 27% (average because there's a lot of people who lave little to no tax liability). Most developed countries are about double that per person.

Now, I'll agree we have some higher personal income/corporate tax rates. But that's deceptive, as it doesn't take into accounts deductions, deferrals, etc. Plus, that's largely offset by much, much higher VAT or sales taxes in other countries. 

[GMDino]

(09-28-2017, 02:24 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Add all taxes we pay

Federal
State
Local
Sales Taxes on food and goods
Social Security and medicare

Yep, we are one of highest taxed nations in the world

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally

Quote:Q.
How do US taxes compare internationally?


A. Total US tax revenue equaled 26 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), well below the 34 percent average for developed countries (figure 1).






COMPOSITION OF TAX REVENUE

Income and Profits Taxes: Taxes on personal income and business profits made up 48 percent of US tax revenue in 2014, a higher percentage than in most other OECD countries, where such taxes averaged 34 percent of the total (figure 2). Australia, Denmark, and New Zealand topped the United States in this category, generating just over half of their total revenue from such taxes. In the United States, personal income taxes alone generated 30 percent of total tax revenue compared with 25 percent on average within the OECD.




Social Security Contributions: 


The United States collects relatively less revenue dedicated to retirement, disability, and other social security programs—24 percent of total tax revenue—than the 26 percent OECD average. Some countries were well above that average: the Slovak and Czech Republics, Slovenia, the Netherlands, and Japan all collected more than 40 percent of their revenue from that source.







[b]Property Taxes: Property taxes provided almost twice as large a share of US tax revenue—11 percent in 2014—than the OECD average of 6 percent. Almost all revenue from taxes on property in the United States is collected by state and local governments.[/b]



[b]Goods and Services Taxes: The United States relies less on taxes on goods and services (including both general consumption taxes and taxes on specific goods and services) than any other OECD country, collecting 17 percent of tax revenue this way compared with 33 percent for the OECD. The value-added tax (VAT)—a type of general consumption tax collected in stages—is the main source of consumption tax revenue, employed worldwide in 160 countries including all 34 OECD member countries except the United States. Most consumption tax revenue in the United States is collected by state and local governments.[/b]

[GMDino]

(09-28-2017, 02:38 PM)Benton Wrote: Eh, even all that together, off the top of my head, we still only have an individual liability of less than 27% (average because there's a lot of people who lave little to no tax liability). Most developed countries are about double that per person.

Now, I'll agree we have some higher personal income/corporate tax rates. But that's deceptive, as it doesn't take into accounts deductions, deferrals, etc. Plus, that's largely offset by much, much higher VAT or sales taxes in other countries. 

Great guess!

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(09-28-2017, 02:24 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Add all taxes we pay

Federal
State
Local
Sales Taxes on food and goods
Social Security and medicare

Yep, we are one of highest taxed nations in the world

Not really....

The following graphic represents all of the taxes you listed at all levels of government.  

The one exception, is I do not see if it includes Sales Tax.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally

[Belsnickel]

Well, I see that my work has already been done for me while I was away at a meeting. But FYI, those graphics do take into account indirect (goods/services) taxes.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-28-2017, 02:38 PM)GMDino Wrote:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally

You understand that this would encourage raising the tax burden on the lower and middle classes.

[Belsnickel]

(09-28-2017, 02:39 PM)GMDino Wrote: Great guess!

Eh, that percentage isn't our tax liability on average, it is how much tax revenue we have compared to our GDP. Tax liability averages would be too difficult to calculate, so this is the standard used for comparisons.

Now, keep in mind that GDP includes government expenditures. The government spending part of our GDP rides around 35%. So 35% of our GDP is spent by the government, but they only bring in 26%.

[Goalpost]

From what I have seen in watching the two business channels, CNBC and Fox Business, i don't see a lot of celebrating by the well to do guests.

I'm still educating myself on it to form an opinion. One industry that could get hurt is the tax refund/return and accounting industry due to simplification