Trump's lawyer-President does not have to support Constitution

[*pally*]

There is a lawsuit in Colorado challenging Trump's candidacy. The claim in that his actions surrounding the 2020 election were a violation of the 14th Amendment which forbids people who have committed insurrection from holding elective office.

In their response to the suit, Trump's lawyers claim that the clause only applies to "officers" of the government who take an oath to "support" the constitution

1) they argue that the holder of the Office of President is not an elected officer of the United States
and
2) The presidential oath only requires the President to "preserve, protect, and defend" the Constitution not support it


now I realize that I am not a constitutional scholar but I'm not quite sure how you can "preserve, protect, and defend" the Constitution without supporting it. And how you can hold an official "office" of the United States without being an elected "officer"

The question of whether or not he supported insurrection will be legally decided by the court. but somehow I have a feeling using these arguments aren't going to help his case

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-wont-support-constitution/

[Dill]

(10-12-2023, 09:26 AM)pally Wrote: There is a lawsuit in Colorado challenging Trump's candidacy.  The claim in that his actions surrounding the 2020 election were a violation of the 14th Amendment which forbids people who have committed insurrection from holding elective office.

In their response to the suit, Trump's lawyers claim that the clause only applies to "officers" of the government who take an oath to "support" the constitution

1) they argue that the holder of the Office of President is not an elected officer of the United States
and
2) The presidential oath only requires the President to "preserve, protect, and defend" the Constitution not support it


now I realize that I am not a constitutional scholar but I'm not quite sure how you can "preserve, protect, and defend" the Constitution without supporting it.  And how you can hold an official "office" of the United States without being an elected "officer"

The question of whether or not he supported insurrection will be legally decided by the court. but somehow I have a feeling using these arguments aren't going to help his case

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-wont-support-constitution/

I am not sure the lawsuit challenging Trump's candidacy will win out. 

But aside from that, Trump's lawyers' defense reminds me of their defense against the Georgia indictment--that Trump was only upholding his oath to protect the Constitution by insuring election integrity when he asked the GA Sec. of State to find the 11,000 votes he needed. If the Colorado lawsuit fails, it will be on its own lack of merit, and not the legal argument advanced by Trump's lawyers.

Trump's pushing through the guardrails of democracy has really generated some legal weirdness. 

[HarleyDog]

(10-12-2023, 09:26 AM)pally Wrote: There is a lawsuit in Colorado challenging Trump's candidacy.  The claim in that his actions surrounding the 2020 election were a violation of the 14th Amendment which forbids people who have committed insurrection from holding elective office.

Trump has not been found guilty of committing insurrection. 

[*pally*]

(10-12-2023, 12:10 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Trump has not been found guilty of committing insurrection. 

exactly, which is why the Colorado lawsuit is likely to fail at this point.  But, his defense that the President is not an elected office holder and is not required to "support" the constitution is ludicrous.  


If Trump does not believe the first and foremost job of the President is to support the Constitution he has no business being in the office.

[Dill]

(10-12-2023, 12:10 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Trump has not been found guilty of committing insurrection. 

Do you think he was not trying to overturn a valid election,

and not using a mob to help him?

[HarleyDog]

(10-13-2023, 11:13 AM)Dill Wrote: Do you think he was not trying to overturn a valid election,

and not using a mob to help him?

What I think doesn't matter and your question is leading. But to answer your question, No - I don't.  I see it as another over-dramatized leftist far-reaching accusation. Many thought the elections were rigged. 99.9% of people at the capital were peacefully protesting. But the left and the media blew it out of proportion. It's all drama to try and sway voters. This is the double standard that upsets me. A couple hundred people get stupid and it's blown up like one of the worst atrocities in American history. Goons take over major cities during the George Floydd protest, kill cops, burn government buildings and police stations, and the left and the media claim they are peacefully protesting. It's ridiculous.  

[*Nately120*]

(10-13-2023, 12:36 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: What I think doesn't matter and your question is leading. But to answer your question, No - I don't.  I see it as another over-dramatized leftist far-reaching accusation. Many thought the elections were rigged. 99.9% of people at the capital were peacefully protesting. But the left and the media blew it out of proportion. It's all drama to try and sway voters. This is the double standard that upsets me. A couple hundred people get stupid and it's blown up like one of the worst atrocities in American history. Goons take over major cities during the George Floydd protest, kill cops, burn government buildings and police stations, and the left and the media claim they are peacefully protesting. It's ridiculous.  

Many thought the elections were rigged.

Many thought what Trump did was incite an insurrection.


If we are going by the "many thought" defense, we open the door to all sorts of things...I mean, have you ever seen how many people think being a Steeler fan makes them "tough?"  Geez o pete.

[*pally*]

(10-13-2023, 12:36 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: What I think doesn't matter and your question is leading. But to answer your question, No - I don't.  I see it as another over-dramatized leftist far-reaching accusation. Many thought the elections were rigged. 99.9% of people at the capital were peacefully protesting. But the left and the media blew it out of proportion. It's all drama to try and sway voters. This is the double standard that upsets me. A couple hundred people get stupid and it's blown up like one of the worst atrocities in American history. Goons take over major cities during the George Floydd protest, kill cops, burn government buildings and police stations, and the left and the media claim they are peacefully protesting. It's ridiculous.  

You think maybe they thought it was rigged because Trump, his cronies, and his media megaphones constantly LIED about it to them?

[BigPapaKain]

Many people also think the Earth is flat, the moon isn't real, and birds are government cameras.

Many people are dumb as a box of rocks.

[HarleyDog]

(10-13-2023, 02:29 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Many thought the elections were rigged.

Many thought what Trump did was incite an insurrection.


If we are going by the "many thought" defense, we open the door to all sorts of things...I mean, have you ever seen how many people think being a Steeler fan makes them "tough?"  Geez o pete.

He called it a VALID election. I was reacting to that specifically. 

[HarleyDog]

(10-13-2023, 03:10 PM)pally Wrote: You think maybe they thought it was rigged because Trump, his cronies, and his media megaphones constantly LIED about it to them?

Did he lie? It's not a lie if he's 100% convinced the Dems stole the election, and I really believe he thinks that way and not for show.

[GMDino]

(10-13-2023, 04:10 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Did he lie? It's not a lie if he's 100% convinced the Dems stole the election, and I really believe he thinks that way and not for show.

Yes.  He lied.

Everyone around him told him it was not rigged, not stolen.  Well, not EVERYONE.  There were still a few who wanted to stay in his inner circle and grift with and off of him.  

If he truly is 100% convinced that the "Dems" stole the election then he is mentally unwell and should be placed under the care of a doctor and not be running for POTUS.

[*Nately120*]

(10-13-2023, 04:10 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Did he lie? It's not a lie if he's 100% convinced the Dems stole the election, and I really believe he thinks that way and not for show.

Trump's ability to avoid talking about the rigged election under oath makes me think he doesn't truly believe.  Now Mike Lindell does.  That guy is throwing his entire life down the drain for this stuff because he believes it.

Trump just says what he needs to say to simultaneously stroke his ego, placate his fanbase, and make money. I will say if Trump loses in 2024 it will be interesting to see if he goes the "They stole it again! Give me more money! I'm running in 2028!" route and how many people line up behind him again.

[Dill]

(10-13-2023, 12:36 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: What I think doesn't matter and your question is leading. But to answer your question, No - I don't.  I see it as another over-dramatized leftist far-reaching accusation. Many thought the elections were rigged. 99.9% of people at the capital were peacefully protesting. But the left and the media blew it out of proportion. It's all drama to try and sway voters. This is the double standard that upsets me. A couple hundred people get stupid and it's blown up like one of the worst atrocities in American history. Goons take over major cities during the George Floydd protest, kill cops, burn government buildings and police stations, and the left and the media claim they are peacefully protesting. It's ridiculous.  

H-Dog, it's not just about a couple hundred or maybe a thousand people.

Trump worked with the GOP in seven states to forge lists of false electors and give them to Pence
during certification, and then pressured him to declare a "problem" and postpone certification.

The goal, according to Trump's treasury secretary, was to eventually
throw the vote to the House, where Trump would win. That's not "just an accusation."

Many thought the election was rigged because Trump and minions told them it was.
But Trump was told it was NOT by everyone in a position to know and verify.

I.e., he created and stoked the claim the election was rigged. Whatever
he/they believed, that did not give them the right to overturn the election.

The media claimed that people peacefully protesting were peacefully protesting,
not the people who weren't.

But the Floyd protests are a bit of a red herring. Burning down a police station in
Minneapolis is not on the same scale as disrupting the transition of power--which has
never happened in US history before. 

A valid election was almost overturned. How can that be "blown out of proportion"?

[Dill]

(10-13-2023, 02:29 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Many thought the elections were rigged.

Many thought what Trump did was incite an insurrection.

If we are going by the "many thought" defense, we open the door to all sorts of things...I mean, have you ever seen how many people think being a Steeler fan makes them "tough?"  Geez o pete.

Not a good example. Steeler fans ARE tough.

Otherwise, this post hits the nail on the head.

We can't have government and law and order if people can
just "think" an election is illegitimate and then overthrow it
--especially when they cannot even muster enough evidence to get a court's attention.

"Truthiness" can't be a ground for breaking the country.

I'm amazed that so many seem to think every thing is in order
if Trump "really believed" his lies. And would vote for him again after such colossal misjudgment.

[BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI]

(10-13-2023, 12:36 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: What I think doesn't matter and your question is leading. But to answer your question, No - I don't.  I see it as another over-dramatized leftist far-reaching accusation. Many thought the elections were rigged. 99.9% of people at the capital were peacefully protesting. But the left and the media blew it out of proportion. It's all drama to try and sway voters. This is the double standard that upsets me. A couple hundred people get stupid and it's blown up like one of the worst atrocities in American history. Goons take over major cities during the George Floydd protest, kill cops, burn government buildings and police stations, and the left and the media claim they are peacefully protesting. It's ridiculous.  

Nice try, but that is total BS. That's a whataboutism argument and doesn't hold an ounce of water in any court of law. You're explaining the motives for what happened on Jan 6th by saying two wrongs make a right. Total BS and you'd be laughed outta any court in the land. What Benedict Donald the Traitor Trump did on January 6th is not even close to what happened during the Floyd riots.  People were protesting b/c these murderous cops were not being held accountable for killing minorities in the streets by their "local yocal" DA, and it took the state's AG office or the DOJ to get involved to seek justice.  

Yes, I agree the destruction of gov't property was a crime and those vandals should go to jail, but also what the Trump lead insurrectionists did by attacking our Constitution and Capitol police was even more serious b/c it was a direct assault on our Constitutional democracy.  What Traitor Trump and the Jan 6th insurrectionists are guilty of 18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy.  This is b/c they attempted to hinder the transfer of power from one administration to another as required by the laws under our Constitution.  The Federal Law reads as follows:

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-13-2023, 04:26 PM)GMDino Wrote: Yes.  He lied.

Everyone around him told him it was not rigged, not stolen.  Well, not EVERYONE.  There were still a few who wanted to stay in his inner circle and grift with and off of him.  

If he truly is 100% convinced that the "Dems" stole the election then he is mentally unwell and should be placed under the care of a doctor and not be running for POTUS.

At the time you can't prove he was lying. 

We have been hearing about vote fraud for years. When it was as close as it was, yea it's a bit odd and definitely worth the recount.

Your opinion isn't the only one that matters just because others have a different opinion than yours.

[*Nately120*]

(10-14-2023, 03:04 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: At the time you can't prove he was lying. 

We have been hearing about vote fraud for years. When it was as close as it was, yea it's a bit odd and definitely worth the recount.

Your opinion isn't the only one that matters just because others have a different opinion than yours.

I don't think Trump himself presents his skepticism in such a reasoned and open way.

[BigPapaKain]

(10-13-2023, 04:10 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Did he lie? It's not a lie if he's 100% convinced the Dems stole the election, and I really believe he thinks that way and not for show.

The sky is actually a bright pink and the earth is velociraptor shaped. I am 100% convinced of this thus it is not a lie, despite all empirical evidence.

[BigPapaKain]

(10-14-2023, 03:04 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: At the time you can't prove he was lying. 

We have been hearing about vote fraud for years. When it was as close as it was, yea it's a bit odd and definitely worth the recount.

Your opinion isn't the only one that matters just because others have a different opinion than yours.

The people pushing voter fraud as some widespread problem (despite all evidence to the contrary) are usually the ones who end up benefitting when someone tries to commit voter fraud. Especially in the last few election cycles.

Just because some people keep screaming that there is an issue doesn't mean there is actually an issue. Boy who cried wolf and all that.